Morgana's log

[eido]

So what are the criteria for your languages again? Big with vowel harmony? Or was that last one out?

And no opaque ones?

I mean, if we get rid of opaque there's less to choose from. Because in China and Asia there's a lot of variety.

I would make the case for (anyone who may not be you but reads this thread and is similar to you, should you dislike this perhaps unwarranted advice and ignore it immediately) standard Mandarin Chinese (and the dialects [or better, languages]), or Korean. I don't have much experience with South Asia but I'm working on that.

I've just started Chinese again after an aborted attempt and I don't think I'll become fluent in this language. Nowhere close. So I have little expectation of getting good, even at the basics. And that's what makes it so relaxing. I'm learning about the components of the characters and if I pay a bit, I can get a dictionary that will explain all the history to me. I'm sure there are some great textbooks out there that would do the trick, too. Learning Chinese the systematic way is beautiful in its efficiency, but even with that added speed, you want to go slow just to take it in and not fool yourself into complacency. Sure, there are folks that would want to speed through Chinese fluency, but I doubt many would get to appreciate Chinese in full.
Korean has lovely vowel harmony, and the dialects are diverse and just as lovely. It has an inherent logic that to me is more transparent than Chinese, and has tons of media, just like Chinese. The sounds are hard to distinguish, as you might know from your previous studies, but enough listening practice and miming of the sounds should do the trick. It's very expressive and in my experience not as stiff as people (or textbooks) make it out to be.
There's also always Japanese but I can't make a case for it since my experience with it is anime-infused. I've grown out of anime largely, and it kind of makes me cringe to think I used to be a weeb. But the great thing about studying two of these at a time, or one after the other, is getting an insight on how Chinese culture bled into the other two. For instance, Korean especially has a lot of Chinese loanwords -- so much there's books filled with them for Korean learners to memorize. And all three countries have a degree of Confucianism at their heart, filtered out differently depending on the place. It's not particularly popular now due to certain ideals, but it's great for the study of history.

I don't think you'd even have to study any of the three intensively to get a lot out of them. Just my promoting of these languages, in my studying infancy.

[DaveAgain]

French isn't it. Nineteen lessons of Assimil and a few dubbed episodes of things on Netflix (including the Good Wife which btw is much more my thing in recent years vs. Friends)... it doesn't appeal to me the same way that Swedish or Icelandic or Finnish or Russian or whatever did/does on first (and repeated) listens. That aural appeal counts a lot for me.

One of the things I listened to in french was a series of talks by a Montessori teacher. The way she pronounced the '-re' at the end of 'ordre' always cracked me up.

[Brun Ugle]

I love the new name for your log. It’s perfect.

I understand your difficultly in choosing a language. I basically want to learn all of them, but I also want to learn to a high level because otherwise, what’s the point? I suppose a low level can be useful in some cases, but I have no actual use for most languages; I just like them. So I want to be able to use them to watch TV or read. The problem with learning to higher levels is it’s HARD. The lower levels pass by easily, and only require ordinary textbooks and audio materials. But at higher levels you really have to push yourself with writing and speaking and learning infrequent vocabulary words and so on. Spanish and German are both driving me a bit crazy at this point. I love them, but it doesn’t seem to matter how many words I learn, there are still just as many left that I don’t know.

[aaleks]

<...> but it doesn’t seem to matter how many words I learn, there are still just as many left that I don’t know.

Often time when I come across a new English word I start thinking how poor my English is, I'll never learn the language. But then I remind myself that it's been my decision not to learn words on purpose, as a list or in any similar way. So on the one hand I really want to learn the language to a high level, on the other I lack the discipline to really push myself.

[StringerBell]

I want one or two "big" languages out of this. I basically want languages that come with a lot of media.

I hate to say this, but if you want a "big language" that comes with a lot of awesome modern media (music, books, TV/movies) I don't suggest Italian. Italian has an amazing cultural history, and if you like opera, or 19th century (or older) literature and sculpture and painting, or art films from 50+ years ago, then Italian would be a serious contender. Sadly, I find Italian modern media to be extremely lacking.

1) Serious lack of audiobooks. You can find a variety of public domain audiobooks on Librivox stuff, but not much in terms of modern audiobooks. Just go to Audible and compare their selection in French, German, Spanish and then look at Italian. It's pitiful. In the last year, I have seen a concerted effort by Audible to increase Italian offerings; the problem is that (I think) audiobooks are not yet really common in Italy. This might be in the process of changing, but it will take a while for them to catch up. I've spent hours scouring websites that sell audiobooks and have never really found any site to be satisfactory. The one website I found that looked like they had a halfway decent selection using some weird file format (Kobu?) that is not compatible with Kindle. Kindle doesn't seem to be popular in Italy.

2) Serious lack of native language quality TV/movies and music. I'm not saying there's no good Italian music, but it's not going to be easy to find. I have yet to find a decent native language TV show. Last time I looked, Netflix had 2 or 3 Italian shows, and they were both mafia-related with lots of southern dialect/weird pronunciation. If you like mafia stuff (I hate it), then you will be satisfied. Otherwise, expect to rely mainly on English language shows dubbed into Italian. My husband stopped watching Italian TV and listening to Italian music long before leaving Italy.

I know RDearman has a show that he watches in Italian and really likes (a reality show about truck drivers and diners, I think). Reality shows aren't my cup of tea, so maybe there are some shows like that available that are good that I just don't know about. I would love for someone to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about and flood me with a ton of resources, but that hasn't happened yet. All of my native resources I've found I've had to really work for. If I weren't learning this language to speak with family, I definitely wouldn't choose it because of the modern media available. I don't know if this helps or complicates things for you.

[Systematiker]

Not very. The [FSI's language learning timelines] were never logged featuring Joe Public. They are the result of watching those who studied with FSI who were:

• Immersed 6+ hours per day with native tutor in small classes speaking only the target language.
• Mostly already multilingual.
• Had great aptitude for language learning and had to ace a very hard entry exam to even be considered for participation.
• Were there as part of their career so had a lot on the line riding on their success.
• Given 3+ hours of homework every night which aren't included in the hours.
• Had nothing else to do but learn language and do PT for like 6 whole months.
• Level is only B2.

So the hours here could probably be trebled for a normal person. Even if you had all of the above you're still lacking the curriculum and structure the very qualified and experienced language teachers at FSI threw at their students.

Those hours are not applicable to mostly everyone on here.

All true. My standard joke is you have to add a zero to the estimates for "civilians," so 6,000 hours for you and me to learn Spanish.

You did not state it explicitly, but the FSOs' sole job is to learn that language. It's their full-time job while they're at the Institute. Most of us are not being paid to learn a language.

Another point most people miss: the FSI estimates are for speaking and reading only. While I'm sure their listening skills are also good, FSOs are not measured on writing and listening skills, unlike the CEFR.

They also have access to a language lab with native speakers outside of the classroom, so they have the ability to practice even more intensely if they choose.

These estimates are averages for FSOs, so even among them, some take longer, some need less time to reach proficiency.

Also, the small classes are typically only 3 or 4 people.

Some food for thought. If you believe them, it puts things into perspective.

600 hours (category I) ÷ 24 weeks = 25 hours/week of classroom instruction, or 5 hours/day

+ 3-4 hours of homework/day (per week day or per day? let's go light and assume per weekday)

4 x 5 x 24 = 480 hours

600 + 480 = 1080 hours for the outcomes FSI attempts to create using the FSI's methods

1080 x 3 = 3240 hours if tripling the numbers is really what it takes as an "average" person

3240 hours ÷ 1 hour/day ÷ 365 days/year = 8.87 years

@ 2 hours/day = 4.44 years

If you "only" double the FSI numbers (1080 x 2), it's still 5.92 years @ 1 hour/day or 2.96 years @ 2 hours/day

(For category IV languages, or category III on this updated list, 1100 class hours over 44 weeks, it's 880 hours of homework at 4 hours/weekday, or 1980 hours; doubling makes it 3960 hours, which is either 10.85 years (1h/d) or 5.42 years (2h/d) )

Maybe all that is overkill; maybe it's not. I don't know! I haven't gotten to whatever B2 is yet on my somewhere-around-1000-hours of Swedish, and I think whatever B2 is is inadequate for what my own personal aims are for Swedish anyway, so I figure it's going to take me a while longer.

Somewhere here or on htlal you’ll find me having done that same math several times to describe targets and results. I think under equivalent conditions (optimized learning, experience) the 1080 or 1980 number doesn’t need to be doubled (at least it’s about equivalent to my experience), but doubling seems consonant with most monolingual learners’ initial experience (again, anecdotal).

Fun info, I’ve also come up with ~1900 hours for C1 in a Cat I language using a different estimation, so if both are reasonably on target it gives an interesting comparison - when optimized, about the same effort to learn a Cat I to C1 as a Cat IV to B2. Once again, take with a grain of salt, nothing I calculate reflects anything other than my experiences and observations.

Enjoy reading your log

[MorkTheFiddle]

I think I need to take a course in decision making Yesterday it seemed like I was getting close to settling on what L3 (maybe L4 too) to pick up but now today I feel as undecided as ever. It doesn't help that some things (stupid things don't ask) are bothering me with Swedish again.

You are not alone. Just the other day I subscribed to JapanesePod101, downloaded initial lessons, then changed my mind before the day was over and cancelled my subscription.

I hope the default/built-in dictionaries for other languages (eg. DE, FR, ES, RU, etc.) are better. It's a real pain turning to external dictionaries.

Kindle's default dictionairies for Spanish and French work well for me. Mostly the missing consist of obsolete or technical words.

I was watching Solsidan but decided to take a break (it seems I can only stick to one show for so long, even when it's relatively good which this show is)...

Three years are almost always my max. Law and Order was an exception, though even with it I stopped after about season 17.

[aaleks]

About Italian media.

I would agree with StringerBell. Well I can't disagree with someone who definitely know a lot more than me about the subject. But I have to admit that I actually like the Italian series I've watched so far. Not too many. There's something about them that has a kind of therapeutic effect on me. I don't know why, maybe because I don't know the language well yet, but I can watch in Italian the kind of shows I hardly would watch in Russian or English. Like this, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqfUCvoOcH8 (it's not the series itself just fun-art. I guess, it's how such things are called?). Un amore e una vendetta - I would run away from something with such a name in my native tongue but I can watch it in Italian. I guess, sometimes I just get tired of American shows, and Italian ones feel like a change, a breeze.

But otherwise I agree with StringerBell -- Italian might be not the best choice for someone who's after a language with a lot of media. Spanish or French would be a better option, I guess.

[StringerBell]

I feel bad saying that there's not a lot of good modern media in Italian, so much so that it makes me start doubting myself because it must exist. When I think about Polish in comparison....well, there really is no comparison. There is such a wealth of Polish media in terms of TV sitcoms, interesting books, audiobooks, movies, graphic novels, you name it. I seriously never have a hard time finding anything in Polish, whether it's native language or translation. But with Italian it always feels like a struggle. It's even hard for me to believe this is how it is, so maybe I'm just particularly bad at digging up the good Italian stuff? I don't know. Italian is a beautiful language and it has fantastic spelling/reading rules that are refreshingly easy to learn (and you say almost everything that's written, unlike French) so I don't want to give the impression that I think anyone shouldn't learn it, but I just don't recommend learning it specifically for the current native resources available.

BTW, like Aaleks I have a really high tolerance for stuff in other languages that I would run away from in English! I wonder if that's true for you with Swedish, Morgana? Do you think you would like those same TV shows you watch in Swedish if they were in English?

[aaleks]

... I don't know why, maybe because I don't know the language well yet, but I can watch in Italian the kind of shows I hardly would watch in Russian or English. Like this, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqfUCvoOcH8 (it's not the series itself just fun-art. I guess, it's how such things are called?). Un amore e una vendetta - I would run away from something with such a name in my native tongue but I can watch it in Italian. I guess, sometimes I just get tired of American shows, and Italian ones feel like a change, a breeze.

But otherwise I agree with StringerBell -- Italian might be not the best choice for someone who's after a language with a lot of media. Spanish or French would be a better option, I guess.

What you said about being able to watch things in Italian that you wouldn't watch in Russian or English, I do the same with Swedish, though in my case it feels more like making myself watch them rather than wanting or enjoying. Up until recently anyway, I've got a better handle on media recently.

And that last comment I quoted above - how about Russian?? Surely there's loads of Russian media that's good?

There is loads of Russian media of different quality . The problem is I rarely watch Russian tv-series/shows, not because I think it's bad but just because I don't have enough free time for watching TV in two/three languages. The last thing I watched was Тайны следствия season 18 ( https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... 0%BE%D0%BD ) I haven't watched all the seasons but I suspect that they might be different in mood and probably quality. The first season was rather gloomy, the latest ones are more fun and jokes. Would I recommend it? Honestly, I don't know.
So I'd say that there's indeed loads of Russian media but would you like it -- it's hard for me to predict .