Year and a Half of German and French !

[naqvisson]

Berlin update:

Its been a week that I am back in Finland after two meaningful weeks in Germany/Berlin. The first pleasant surprise was that there was no snow at all while we were having a snow storm in Helsinki and my biggest fear was cancellation of flight due to weather but it went as planned.

My friend had exam week/time so I was all alone to roam around, to explore the city and places which turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I would loose my way often , ask which side of the road the stop is? would ask directions etc almost every day. Went to a library to find if libraries hold language cafes there like as in Helsinki but perhaps my German was so bad and the librarian was speaking so fast....I lost all the meanings ...First time speaking/listening to a live conversation with a native German turned out to be a bit disappointment. Another friend suggested to try "meet up" app to find some language exchanges in Berlin. What an idea it turned out to be. I was able to attend about 4-5 language exchanges which were held in different bars by different groups.

First half an hour of first language exchange meet up was really hard as I had never before tried to speak German. The bar was kinda full and about 40 people showed up for the language exchange. Yes 40. The organizer gave us some sticking papers to put on shirts about the languages you speak and the languages you want to learn. There was a Swedish lady from Stockholm there, few Italians, Russians, Turks, Latvian, Canadian, Chinese, Korean, (and many more) fellows. The timing of the exchange was about 3 hrs...so towards the end of it, I was atleast trying to make some basic sentences. Although I was filling the gaps with Swedish words...Instead of German, my Swedish got activated

From the second exchange onwards, output started improving miraculously. I don't claim to be excellent in German after 2 weeks and 5 language exchanges and that too after about 85-90 lessons of Assimil but towards the end of the vacations, interference of Swedish became minimal. Now that I am back, often instead of saying kiitos, tack, thanks etc...danke pops up all of a sudden.

I didn't study any new lesson of GWOT there. My friend had Assimil German 2013 book. Just reviewed about 30 lessons. I liked it btw. I wish I could deffer this trip to 2 more months to avail full benefits from immersion stay. My german is still very basic and I think, I will need about 2-3 more months...plenty of native contents and lots of hard work to be fairly comfortable with the language. Anyways, the trip made me thinking in german and I call it a success... (and there was no snow and I saw SUN as well ). I hope to go back to Germany for a month in October/November this year.

DW Top Thema will become my preference along with GWOT and 2013 Assimil for next month or two.

Meanwhile, 2-3 days ago, I was feeling a bit bored so ordered " Assmil Finnisch Ohne Muhe" and read German side of it for first 10 lessons and I was so glad that I could understand almost every thing. I am staying in Finland for atleast one more year....at times I am wondering should I start 30 mins a day Assimil Finnish or not? I am surrounded by Finns...I can attend 5 Language cafes a week for Finnish language....BUT still wondering should I really go for it or not? Should I rather try to improve my Swedish to a B2+? and then there is French...I have already stopped French. I also need to resume it. Although I see no use of French in near future (1 year or so)...and I love Russian language as well...and I know that I am becoming a victim of wanderlust

Therefore, I will try to resist every other language till atleast March 31 except German and I know that I will still go to the library and will have a deep look on Persian books, on a few French ones and on plenty of Finnish books!!!

PLUS in this week, I motivated two people to learn Swedish by self study and another friend to learn German.

[naqvisson]

I posted something but mistakenly deleted my last post. It was about visit to Stockholm and practicing a bit of Swedish after a pause of about 3 months. Fortunately, it didnt deteriorate that much. Compliments from locals really force you to learn even more. After coming from Stockholm, have been daily reading some news items from svt.se and expressen.se.

Have started Assimil Perfection series of German in French without knowing French. Finished about 3 lessons. Lessons are way too long and the speed is electric...I will keep on doing it slowly with an aim of spending 2-3 even 4 days on one lesson. No hurry.

A big dismay during these days is that DW Top thema app has some error as dictionary is not working. I really wanted to make it my prime learning material but....lets see when they fix the app.

Finally the Decision on FINNISH:

I was really unsure that should I start learning Finnish or not. Do I really need it? Can I invest that much time on it? Having failed miserably learning it in the school for a couple of times, can I really or do I really want to give it another shot?

Someone kept whispering in my ears, see its hard..you have already failed it three, four times...spend the same amount of time in learning something else...and then another voice came..come on man, then you were just a traditional language learner who was afraid of making mistakes, afraid of learning by self study, a language teachers dependent and follower of orthodox Finnish learning materials...which were restricted to what teacher would suggest...initiative was lacking and I had by then never heard of Assimil and Linguaphone and FSI etc etc.

Now, atleast I believe, every/any language can be learnt...and that too by self study...having a detailed brainstorming session on pros and cons, I have decided to give it a shot. ONE FINAL TIME. Finnish is going to be my main language for next 100 days...with German getting about 20 mins a day and Swedish as usual just news stuff or a weekend movie at the max.

The plan:

Assimil Finnisch ohne Muhe (Main text)....one lesson a day...2-3 old revision
From start to Finnish just as a reference
FSI Finnish (as a reference)
Glossika to be introduced after 30-40 days

I will go to first language cafe after about 2-3 weeks and after that I will try to attend atleast 3 languages cafes a week. The blessing here is that if one wants, one can attend a Finnish language cafe for 7 days a week, daily in different libraries of the city. So i will be availing the opportunity.

As of today:

Finnisch ohne Muhe: 8 lessons done!

Will update log every other day.

[naqvisson]

..

Confession: Spent a great deal of time on HTLAL old forum..its still a gold mine..you can still find tons of relevant/wonderful advise there..


Swedish:

Since my visit to Stockholm, all of a sudden my love for Swedish has come back...watched SVT regularly, listening to sverige radio daily for about 10-20 minutes in 10, 10 minutes slots...once the moment i get up and then the moment i go to bed to sleep...as usual start my day with visiting svt.se, yle svenska plus bbc, cnn and dw to see how the world has changes since I last time checked these news sites! Even while composing this post, Swedish songs are playing in the background.

German:

Just revising Toil, NGWE and following DW on instagram!

Finnish:

Assimil Finnish ohne Muhe: 10 lessons completed..

Listened a bit of FSI Finnish Unit 1:

I just came home from library with a copy of Finnish for Foreigners 1. I wish I have the courage to take the Finnish bull by horns...I am still in a bit of doubt about it..May be I will only do Assimil Finnish up to lesson #50 and see, if it is working or not..I have some serious problems with shadowing Assimil Finnish...I feel a rash in the throat...I am sorry if I really am sounding rude..but somehow I feel very tired shadowing it. I personally am a great fan of shadowing and have been benefited by it a great deal fro Swedish and German.

I was reading Prof. Arguelles' posts/experiences on the old HTLAL forum and found this valuable write up by him.

Prof. Arguelles wrote on April 18, 2005:

Of course I was tempted to learn modern Chinese - learn it and with one fell swoop you will have learned to communicate with 1/6 of the people on the planet - what other language can offer this? I did make several stabs at it, but you are exactly right, I was "turned off by the tones." Pax to you and all who love it and to Victor and all whose tongue it is, but I really find Chinese to be an incredibly ugly language. I tried to overcome this purely subjective prejudice by focusing on its importance, but as I must initially learn languages by intensive shadowing, I just couldn't do it. After only a few minutes of shadowing Chinese, I begin to feel very unpleasant physical sensations because my entire auditory system is offended by what I am hearing, and it is as if my vocal tract is saying "stop! this hurts me! I don't want to make these sounds! please stop!"

I think this little annecdote about myself illustrates a very important principle of polyglottery, namely the principle of affinity. I do not believe it is possible to learn a language that you do not like. I think that one reason why many people study but fail to learn a language, and why they do not enjoy the process, is because they do not feel any affinity for the language they are studying. It is all well and good to go after a language becuase it is important or useful or for whatever other reason you like, but if you not like the way the language looks, sounds, and feels, I think you had better make another choice. That is to get started learning, but to take it to a deeper level and really master a language, I think it is necessary to appreciate the cultural aesthetics of a language - its cuisine, its music, its art, its literature. I've found that respect for the tradition is not quite enough - these things must actually appeal to you. You should explore these things when choosing a language, and carefully consider the feelings of affinity or antipathy that develop as you progress in your studies in order to determine whether or not to continue. Those who learn a language because they have to do not have this luxury, but those who learn languages out of love should not be burdened with something they cannot love.

After reading this "affinity" thing, I realized I am lacking this for Finnish...or may be in polite words, it is still not there.. I loved Swedish. I love German. I feel for French. However I am trying to develop this affinity for Finnish but so for, I do not find myself eager to learn it. I know I need this language. I should learn it, but somewhere I get a similar feelings like Prof. Arguelles mentioned.

Has anyone from senior members felt the same lack of affinity for the languages they are learning?

[Cèid Donn]

I'm not a "senior member" here but if I may:

I think it's a privilege to be able to study only languages you have an "affinity" for. I strongly disagree with Arguelles' bias that you can't learn a language unless you like that language. I used to be an ESL writing and test skills tutor, it was my pay-the-bills job in uni, and the overwhelming majority of my students weren't studying English because they liked it. Yet they were writing college papers and taking the GRE in it. I currently live where there are a lot of L2 speakers of English and Spanish, and I seriously doubt every one of them enjoyed having to learn the other language. But they, like my past ESL student, have succeeded in doing so because they needed to, to be able to work or go to school. Millions of people in the world learn another language because they need to, but Arguelles seem a little oblivious to that reality in these comments.

Does being passionate about the language you're learning help? Yes, but it's not essential. You can learn a language without being a fan of it. I work regularly with a lady who had to learn English in her 50s to be able to work here in a job where she's criminally underpaid, and she still struggles with a lot of the finer things, and you can tell she doesn't enjoy it. But she understand why she has to learn English and she doesn't complain about it--although I suspect her asking me all the time "Why don't you work on your Spanish more? It's such an easy language!" is a gentle gab at my own privilege of not having to work as hard on learning Spanish as she does on English.

That said, I'm going to dish out another criticism of Arguelles' comments quoted here: I think it's in incredibly poor taste and practice to call another people's language "ugly" and talk about it in such negative ways in a forum for language learning (and yes, I know some of the "senior members" here engage in it and that is likewise disappointing to see). None of us choose our native language, yet that is the language that we have learned since childhood to think about the world, others and ourselves in. A person's native language is a deeply intimate thing that is intrinsic to their identity and personhood. So to trash talk a language is to trash talk to people who were born into that language. I think language enthusiasts often forget that every natural language comes with its own culture, people and history, and that the language belongs to them first and foremost. You don't get to separate their language from them just so you can trash talk the language without looking like a bigot. I understand people have visceral reactions to things that are different and unfamiliar to them, but in a language learning forum, some things just don't need to be said.

[naqvisson]

Finnish: Assimil 15
Swedish: Leif och Billy (commedy from SVTplay)
German: a few things here and there.

I think it's a privilege to be able to study only languages you have an "affinity" for. I strongly disagree with Arguelles' bias that you can't learn a language unless you like that language. I used to be an ESL writing and test skills tutor, it was my pay-the-bills job in uni, and the overwhelming majority of my students weren't studying English because they liked it. Yet they were writing college papers and taking the GRE in it. I currently live where there are a lot of L2 speakers of English and Spanish, and I seriously doubt every one of them enjoyed having to learn the other language. But they, like my past ESL student, have succeeded in doing so because they needed to, to be able to work or go to school. Millions of people in the world learn another language because they need to, but Arguelles seem a little oblivious to that reality in these comments.

Well, learning as a hobby and learning as a necessity are two different things, I believe. If its a necessity due to some job, immigration requirements, then you are left with no choice. However, if you are learning languages as a hobby, then you have definitely a choice to pick and choose the language you want to learn on the basis of personal preferences and tastes.

I am a great fan of Prof. and have almost watched his all videos and normally try to explore old HTLAL forum for all his comments/write ups and every time I have learned something new out of them. The above excerpt was from his life story where he explained the languages he had to drop after even achieving considerable knowledge of them.

Furthermore, I have greatly benefited by his shadowing technique and I love to shadow Assimil and other materials/even movie clips to perfect my accent. I have been doing the same for Swedish and German previously and the most encouraging remarks I received were from an old kind aunt in Stockholm who said:" I can normally guess from accent from which country you are but I can only say, you are from Stockholm." It was such a nice compliment and the credit goes to shadowing.

I am trying the same with Assimil Finnish however, I am having some kind of rash in the throat. and meanwhile, I found Prof.'s comment about his experiences with a certain language, of course not Finnish. I could relate to it as I never had similar feelings after shadowing Swedish or German.

"Kati Järvinen’s PhD study "Voice Characteristics in Speaking a Foreign Language: A study of voice in Finnish and English as L1 and L2" " published here by Finnish national broadcasting also supported the same that your voice changes. Here you go for the whole report:

Study: Speaking foreign languages strains vocal cords

A new doctoral dissertation has found that speaking different languages causes changes in the voice. For example, Finns speaking English tend to speak in a higher pitch, which causes vocal fatigue.

Regular use of different languages affects the voice, says new research on multilingual communication from Finland's University of Tampere.

Kati Järvinen’s PhD study "Voice Characteristics in Speaking a Foreign Language: A study of voice in Finnish and English as L1 and L2" found that pitch rises when speakers articulate a foreign language, causing more strain to the voice cords.

"It appears to be the case that when you speak a foreign language, you speak it in a different way than your native tongue. Vocal cords close more tightly, and produce a more pressed sound. The tenser muscles then increase the vocal load," says Järvinen.

Voice changes
Twenty Finnish and 23 English speakers were asked to read a text in their native language and then in other foreign language.

The samples were then perceptually and acoustically analyzed for sound pressure levels. The speakers in the test were also asked to fill out a questionnaire about their own views of the changes that happen when they speak different languages.

"Finns tend to raise the pitch of their voices when they speak English. English speakers in the study didn’t exhibit such a pronounced change when they spoke Finnish," says Järvinen.

Hoarseness and nodules
Järvinen says that sound production changes that take place when a person speaks a foreign language can have long-term consequences due to the strain. Problems producing certain sounds and other kinds of disturbances can result.

"Voice issues crop up when people start having problems producing sounds. Voice fatigue and hoarseness are common,” she says. ”If there’s a lot of strain, the vocal folds can experience tissue damage. Pressed sound production can easily lead to nodules and polyps, when the tissue tries to cope with the strain," Järvinen says.

Multicultural life
Speaking different languages has become a part of our daily lives, and people who work as interpreters or language teachers use several languages intensively.

Research shows that people in these occupations have more incidents of voice problems from challenging work conditions, strained and prolonged periods of speaking and the mental load caused by their work.

Learning optimal voice use
Kati Järvinen estimates that sound production changes associated with speaking a foreign language can have many implications, so foreign language students should learn to take good care of their voices early on in their study careers. For example, interpreters or teachers do not currently have compulsory voice usages courses.

"It would be important to do voice exercises in a foreign language, after first learning how to produce sounds correctly in your native language and getting to know your own voice-making anatomy," says Järvinen.

Sources Yle 12.05.2017

So I am having that strain, whats wrong with it? What I have done is that instead of shadowing for atleast 20 times, I have reduced it to mere 5 times. I will see for another week, (Assimil 22), if it persists, then I wil certainly leave it and move on.

[Skynet]

Learning Finnish and intermediate German from a French L2? It sounds like you are secretly in love with French, but are in denial. Join us in Frankreich!

Please do not give up on GWOT... I am on 112/126, and it has become very challenging and thus worthwhile.

[naqvisson]

Learning Finnish and intermediate German from a French L2? It sounds like you are secretly in love with French, but are in denial. Join us in Frankreich!

Please do not give up on GWOT... I am on 112/126, and it has become very challenging and thus worthwhile.

Man, you are a spy peeping in to my heart. I know not how long I have been supressing my urge for French and here you come as a final straw on the camels back...

You know how much value I give to your advise...and your words hv always been very encouraging. I am seriously thinking about French now. 15 mins in the morning, 15 mins in the evening. Hopefully willl start New French with Ease with new zeal from March 31 and will keep updating regularly.

I had literally dumped GWOT after 90 lessons but as you suggest, will try to resume it and make it my first Assimil that I can say, read cover to cover...will resume from today!

[naqvisson]

After hibernating a bit, followings are my progresses:

German:
Re-listening GWOT,
Finnish Assimil German 2013.
A couple of pages of Harry Potter
A few movies

German will definitely take more time and at the moment I see no urgency. However, I am planning to revise both Assimils for atleast next 45 days or so. Nothing new will I read as I need to focus on some other things.

Swedish:
Have been listening Glossika 3 and Assimil Le Svenska 2011. Not very regular but may be 2-3 days a week. From August onwards, will try to be regular in Swedish language cafe.

Persian:
Finished 03 lessons of The Routledge Farsi Shirin. It is relatively a very easy language due to my native Urdu language which is basically a mixture of farsi, arabic and hindi. Not a focus as such but listening a bit whenever I am walking and tired of listening German. Probably will drop it.

Russian:
Started Assimil Russian. Learned alphabets. Finished first 5 lessons. Russian has always been an appealing language for me due to curiosity. Its alphabets always looked beautiful to me. I will keep on doing it on a slow pace, i.e. 4-5 lessons a week. No hurry as such. I might be visiting Saint Peters-burg later this year. By then I aim to finish atleast 50 lessons of Assimil. I also found a Russian language cafe here. Hope to visit it starting late August, early September. It will be a long term project (2 years or so).

French:
Assimil NFWE: 25

French will be my main language for June/July/August. I am aiming to finish Assimil NFWE & Linguaphone in the next three months or so.

I am trying to find a balance between the languages. One day, i will hopefully find it. At the moment, I aim to spend atleast 30 minutes on German every day, 1 hour to French, 30 minutes for Russian.

[Skynet]

Russian!? I have been offline for a very long time, it seems!

My zeal for Persian was extinguished when I could not objectively answer my own question, "Why Persian?" Fortunately, I can live vicariously through you!

I am happy to see that you're still working on your French and German. Which French Linguaphone are you using?

[naqvisson]

Russian!? I have been offline for a very long time, it seems!

My zeal for Persian was extinguished when I could not objectively answer my own question, "Why Persian?" Fortunately, I can live vicariously through you!

I am happy to see that you're still working on your French and German. Which French Linguaphone are you using?

Finished 10 lessons of the Assimil Russian. Glanced a few pages of Linguaphone Russian and that was it. May be after French, I will study Russian with full zeal.y

My aim for Persian is to study Persian poetry. However, one poet had said some thing like this that "The world has made me to forget your memories as the worries of earning a livelihood are more relevant at the moment." Therefore may be some times later, I will definitely come back to these two languages: Persians and Russian.

I am doing Linguaphone French 1990 at the moment.