SGP's Undaground Mad Not-quite-a-Scientist Languij Gizmos Lab

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Two types of memorization

Postby SGP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

[someone; rephrased] wrote:Memorization is boring. But once you know something, you simply know it, right? (...) So if you memorize something, does that mean that it will be there forever, or not?
Because of "first things first", maybe we should make it clear what meaning of memorization this is about.

Because there is rote memorization, i.e. simply repeating the very same word/sentence/information over and over, hoping it will stick to one's memory like glue. And there is another type which is memory-zation [sic!] too, but it is about immersion and exposure to a language/any other type of information.

The first approach sometimes yields quicker results. But very often, they are prone to being forgotten any time soon. And the second one is the approach we all used to learn our native language and many everyday facts (like water quenching thirst and soap cleaning dirt). Anything learned by the second one is much more likely to be Set in Stone inside one's memory.

That said, as human beings, we all do have our shortcomings. Do you consider it difficult to forget that water quenches thirst? I do agree with you. Impossible? Wouldn't say so. Sometimes (because of any intrinsic or extrinsic factors), we would overlook even the most basic facts. The same can also apply to the 101 [i.e. the very basics] of any language, including one's mother's tongue.

There is the saying "use it or lose it". This isn't really a general rule with some exceptions.Because there are countless examples of people recalling something they haven't been using for many years. But there also are many, many examples of people not recalling something because of not having used it, even if they learned it by the second approach (i.e. the one without any rote memorization).
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German: The first language comic

Postby SGP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:12 pm

German: The first Language Comic (about "one" and "I" not being direct synonyms of each other).

This comic strip has been drawn because a native speaker of another language mixed up "man" (one) and "ich" (I). In some other languages (like French), these two words (like "on" and "je") sometimes can be used in a very synonymous way. The same also applies to "jibun" (Japanese), which can be used for "I", just as it can be used for "you", "he", "she" and other pronouns.

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The Hovercraft Language Learning Allegory

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 01, 2019 7:00 am

Below is an allegory which, I hope, would contribute just a little bit to whatever languages you all currently are learning. It came to my mind because of some Nostalgia Memories. When I recently read the word "hovercraft", it reminded me of a SNES (Super Nintendo Entertainment System) game I used to play as a child. It is called Donkey Kong Country 3. By the way, I am not a Video Games Advertising Snake Oil Salesman 8-) or even someone promoting them on a non-commercial basis. But this is about the allegory only.

This game is about two monkeys called Dixie and Kiddy Kong. They are on their mission to rescue Donkey Kong and his son (?) Diddy. After they went through some of the game's "worlds" [*] and beating their Bosses, they collect an Item that is needed by Funky Kong to finish working on his Hovercraft Boat.

[*] A "world" simply is a series of, for example, five levels within the same area.

Once they enter the Hovercraft, they are able to travel faster, and also to reach some regions that used to be out of reach.

It is the same with learning, no matter if it is about This Forum's Number One Subject or anything else. There are levels, "worlds", Bosses (i.e. obstacles that are more difficult to overcome than just the usual Normal Level Enemies), and Items that can be used for some specific purposes. Tools like hammers and screwdrivers. Utils like glue. Etc. And there are some Special Objects (like a hovercraft) that can be used to reach new regions.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:39 pm

Quoting something said in another thread.

lavengro wrote:I hesitate to intrude on the thread as I have nothing substantive to add to the original question. But in case it may be of any benefit Benjamin for you to have another perspective, you seem very committed to wording your posts in an unusual manner, and you should not be surprised if readers (myself included) often do not understand you.
If anything I wrote wasn't really understandable, then a certain topic is very secondary to me. That topic is the question of "was it difficult to understand because I didn't express myself clearly, or because of the other person not managing to understand it in that particular case, or because of a combination of this and that"?

But what matters to me is mutual understanding. So if there is anything I wrote that couldn't be understood to well by anyone, then I (generally) Do Not Mind At All being asked. It's just that it could be helpful to quote the exact part that wasn't too clear, or mention any particular aspect of that. Otherwise, there really would be too much guess-work involved, because I of course wouldn't want to write a reply clarifying every single thing that just maybe wasn't understood...

You are free to write in whatever manner you wish, as is everyone on the forum, but if you choose to write in an enigmatic fashion as you do (possibly for your own amusement) you should not be surprised to get feedback from time to time pointing out that you are occasionally very unclear or completely obscure.
There is a single thread where I sometimes possibly would write in "an intentionally enigmatic fashion for my own amusement". That would be the "you know you are a language nerd when..." thread only.

As for every single other thread, I don't do anything Intentionally Enigmatic.

To the extent that we are here for "the very same purpose," the manner in which you appear intentionally to write, with explicit references to hints or clues, awkward phrasing, etc. seems counterproductive in terms of communication.
The only reason why I didn't clarify it any further is my impression of the meaning (generally) being rather obvious. I.e.: language learning.

Please note that I would not say this if it were not clear you are already accomplished in English, so your unusual wording appears clearly to be a matter of choice rather than of imperfect understanding of English.
I'd say that it is about my 33.3% geekiness that still remained after having taken a, well, very in-depth look at practical and applied communication.

Many, many years ago, that geekiness used to be 100%. Later, it dropped to something like 75%, then it declined some more. And within that Connecting More Communication Skills Dots period (Oct - Dec 2018), it dropped to the current value to 33.3%. But that 1/3 is something I choose to retain, because it is a part of my very personality, and I couldn't entirely remove that geekiness anyway even if I wanted to.

I am also very happy about the fact that there are very many counter-examples, too (i.e. examples of myself being understood, because of replies that the others couldn't make if they wouldn't know what I am talking about). But again, we all are here for the purpose of learning languages. If there is anything anyone would like me to clarify, I (generally) agree to do so. Also, while I do not even consider trying to remove that remaining 1/3 geekiness, I am open to the idea of life-long learning. So if someone would like to tell me how I could express myself in a way that is understood by a wider ranger of people, in any particular situation, I fully agree on listening (i.e. reading) to what they have on their minds. Although not asking for it, as in "please do so".

And in the end, the "issue" you mentioned isn't about the language. How do I know? Because I also write in a similar way when using my native one, i.e. German.
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Re: Six Arabic Learning Tools

Postby SGP » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:22 pm

Hashimi wrote:In historical linguistics, there is a kind of irregularity called suppletion. For example, the past tense of the irregular verb go is went. This is called a suppletive form of the verb (the past participle gone is a different form of irregularity.)
As for Arabic nouns, there definitely are some that (at least usually) wouldn't be pluralized using any of the regular patterns. Like imra'ah امرأة (woman), because its only (again, at least usual) plurals are nisaa' نساء, niswah نسوة, and a possibly existing third one, too. Some would count mar'aat as a plain error because it deviates from anything that is Very Eloquent Standard Arabic a.k.a. العربية الفصحى al3arabiyyatulfus7aa. And as for me, I stick to the principle of 3adamul3ilmi laysa 3ilman bil3adam.
عدم العلم ليس علما بالعدم


These short Arabic words literally translate to:
The absence of knowledge isn't [the same as] knowledge of the absence.

I.e. There is a big difference between
- not knowing, for example, that a certain word would be a valid plural, and
- knowing that a certain word is not a valid plural.

In Arabic there are at least two similar verbs. The verb to come جاء يجيء (jaa yaji') and the verb to see رأى يرى (ra'a yara). The irregularity is in the imperative form.

Third-person singular present tense: يرى (yara)

Third-person singular past tense: رأى (ra'a)

Second-person singular imperative: انظر (unthur)

Third-person singular present tense: جاء (ja'a)

Third-person singular past tense: يجيء (yaji')

Second-person singular imperative: تعال (ta'aal)
It is true that the forms you mentioned can be used as imperatives for these verbs.
The difference between رأى ra'aa and نظر nazara isn't that big at all. Although it does exist in some way (because of the word root and its meaning/etc.). And as for جاء jaa'a and the imperative تعال, the difference also either is small, or even non-existent in this case. تعال , at least in common (both contemporary and classical) speech only is conjugated to form more imperatives (like those for anti, antum and others), but it isn't used as a verb for any of the past, present, or future.

When I read your post, I also recalled having seen the imperative of jaa'a that is based on this verb's stem in a sarf (morphology) table before: جئْ ji'. So one of the three root letters will be removed, but this also happens when it comes to e.g. وصل wasala, because its imperative is صل sil.

And as for ra'aa, there also is at least one imperative that is based on the verb's stem. Although if the/a imperative of it really is ra رَ , then, as it is obvious, even two root letters have been removed. Also, if it is said in isolation, one would read it as "rah", just as one also would do it in similar cases.
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Re: Six Arabic Learning Tools

Postby SGP » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am

Hashimi wrote:This verb is ايس (ays or aysa). Nowadays, it's not used in the present tense except in the negation. For example, الكتاب أحمر (lit. The book red), الكتاب ليس أحمر (lit. The book is not red.)
Amazing. Don't recall having read of "ays/aysa" even once. And while I am not someone who would say that he is certain about that until he verifies it himself, it really seems to be exactly as you mentioned. [*] That would explain quite a lot, like that verb's genuine character of being used for negating something in the present, but in the form (sighah صيغة) of the past tense.

[*] Although it wouldn't be necessary at all to cite any sources for now. I could look it up myself, and this is what I always prefer to do if I can do it without the help of another person.

It is good to know that there is someone at LLorg with whom I could speak about matters like these. (Yes, there are dedicated Arabic language forums, but...). I am not learning al-3arabiyyah any more (like English, too), neither I consider you to be learning it. However, it isn't only included in my Top Ten Favorite Languages, but it even has a special position within it.

As they say, knowledge is like an ocean, consisting of countless tiny drops of water. The amount any single person can gather is very limited, and I consider everyone being able to learn something from everyone. I even learned a thing or two [this is meant quite literally, like: one or two things only] from a Children Used Comics Salesman. But this wasn't about Arabic, it was about some everyday matters instead, because his way of selling his comic strips and improving his pocket money did provide a few Thought Impulses. This happened when I visited his Open Air Shop several weeks ago. And I don't feel ashamed to "admit" (Big Giant Misnomer) having learned something from a, maybe, eight year old boy. What's more, I am definitely, no matta wha dem a-go seh or do, going as far as claiming that any of us can sometimes even learn something new (!) from just any toddler, any baby, animal, plant, or inanimate object like a rock, a precious stone, or a tree stump.

If there was a "dislike" button on LLorg, maybe some or even many of the readers could be inclined to pushing it right now when reading these very lines. But sometimes there is something Below the Tip of the Iceberg that we wouldn't be aware of. It certainly happens to me from time to time. Because of (I'd rather use this particular phrasing on LLorg rather than another one):

لا عِلم لنا إلا ما علمنا


Laa 3ilma lanaa illaa maa 3ullimnaa, this means: We don't have any knowledge except what we have been taught.

Also I'd like you to know (i.e. Hashimi, but others as well), that in my queue there isn't just a single log that is still pending a.k.a. Intended to be Started, but more than one. One of them is about something that is related to several languages that are very popular world-wide, speaking of their very sounds. And just as Spanish, Swahili, Japanese and some others are included, Arabic is included, too. This, too, would be a log that focuses on what we all have in common, while entirely avoiding some other subjects that I definitely consider important, too, and that I also talk about sometimes when speaking to someone in person (offline), but a forum like LLorg wouldn't be the best place to speak about them. Not disclosing any more details about that (planned) log until I would start it, so I wouldn't want anybody to ask me about it either ;).

SGP wrote:And as for ra'aa, there also is at least one imperative that is based on the verb's stem. Although if the/a imperative of it really is ra رَ , then, as it is obvious, even two root letters have been removed. Also, if it is said in isolation, one would read it as "rah", just as one also would do it in similar cases.
It should be رِئ ri', but no one use it. As for جئ, it can be used in the sense of "bring." For example, جئني بالطعام (bring me the food).
It could be ri', or both of ri' and ra, or something else. While I do value languages and Language Knowledge, it isn't too important to me right now (relatively speaking). I, personally, only would look it up when there is a concrete situation requiring it.

And as for your ji' example, of course it can be used like this. There is just one thing coming to my mind. If that imperative can be used with the "bi" preposition, what would prevent one from using it without it, too? Because many other verbs are used both with and without a preposition, even their imperative forms.
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A Geekoid Approach to parsing long human language sentences

Postby SGP » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:33 am

Whoever would like to improve their ability of parsing longer sentences in any (human) language they are learning could do the following:

You might want to consider color-coding their individual parts from time to time.
Also, you could note some of those (e.g.) French Sentence Building Blocks of the This is a "Toughie" type, then adding some background information or some (more) example sentences.

And there is something else that could be done, too. It is mentioned in this very post, after a (necessary, unless you, too, would be among those who speak or understand Geek Talk as well) intro. It could seem like a repetition of the above at first glance. But there is more to it, and especially this forum's geeks or geekoids (whoever they might be, I am a 33.3% geek myself) could consider it somehow useful. Although it is not limited to any particular subset of this forum's "population" at all :o :).

"To parse" keeps reminding me of programming languages, even if it is, first and foremost, a Human Languages Linguistical Term.

When someone is "coding" something in any of those programming languages, i.e. "typing some commands because of wanting the computer to execute them", first, that code a.k.a. Series of Computer Commands is saved in a file. Then (the following is a simplification, because this is a human languages forum ;)) a program called a parser reads through the whole code. And that parser simply ... "surprise" ... parses that code. As for any single Programming Language Sentence Building Block, that parser is required to refer to its Database of Recognized Commands and Statements first. In that database, there is detailed information on the meaning of words like "if, then, else, while, until", and many more. Also, there is information on their valid syntax.

By making a notebook that includes the Human Language Counterpart of all of the above (or any subset of it), one could have a few additional advantages, especially when one sometimes isn't able to parse some, e.g., French sentences that quickly yet.

If any of what that "one third of a geek" person called SGP wrote wasn't entirely understandable, he doesn't mind at all if you would quote whatever you like, then he could explain it in plain English.
It's just that I decided not to add too many long paragraphs right now that would clarify what doesn't need any additional clarification anyway. But I do care about languages, so I really wouldn't mind.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:49 am

[someone] wrote:Hi SGP!

Could you tell me how did you reach C2 level in Arabic? What resources have you used? What were your approaches?
- A lot of speaking practice. In the beginning, this included dropping whatever words I already have learned in some conversations in German. Just like other people drop French or English phrases when talking in their native tongue.

- As for the vocabulary, different approaches have been used. In the beginning: rote memorization. Later, it was much more about Immersion and Exposure Based learning that first was based on repeatedly reading the same content from time to time, later it became close to something that happens automatically, and after that, it continued like automatically learning new English words by context, for what I simply am very grateful.

- Grammar: As for the very basics of it, I learned it in the "old-fashioned" way, by reading "Very Normal Language Textbooks". Later, I switched to learning Arabic in Arabic. Whenever someone is able to do it with any language, I really recommend it. Because then, there is no need of mentally translating back and forth any more.

- Grammar patterns: A lot of them was observed by continually reading and re-reading a certain Very Major Arabic Book that is also among the sources the early grammarians extracted the Arabic grammar from.

- Morphology (sarf): Learned by reading tables then applying, and also directly from the same book I also learned many grammar patterns from.

- There was, well, more than a decade of exposure to (Standard) Arabic. However, I am not at all stating that one would need a decade to learn it. A lot of what I (and many others) know today about Language Learning Efficiency used to be something I was entirely unaware of when I started learning al-3arabiyyah.

(In addition, when I was writing the above paragraph, I also didn't even want to express that it would have taken me a decade to learn it. But it still took me several years.)

(As for the particular resources I used, I couldn't be too specific because of, well, some of their topics or main topics even not always being among those which could be discussed in this forum. But I'd say that "the rest" ;) of this answer still could be useful. It isn't that difficult to find, e.g., reliable books on Arabic grammar.)
Last edited by SGP on Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:38 am

Hashimi wrote:
SGP wrote:- Grammar patterns: A lot of them was observed by continually reading and re-reading a certain Very Major Arabic Book that is also among the sources the early grammarians extracted the Arabic grammar from.


Ibn Khaldun said in his Muqaddimah:

"The fact that the people of Tunisia and the Maghrib restrict themselves to [that book] makes them altogether incapable of mastering the linguistic competence.[...]"
I'm not sure by whom this translation was written. Also, I didn't really check to what extent it is in accordance with the Arabic text in his "al-muqaddimah", but I nevertheless looked up his original saying. It (theoretically) would be possible that he spoke about this very topic in two different places of his book. But as for the part I just looked up, that includes mentioning the people of Ifriqiyyah/Afriqiyyah and al-Maghrib, and much more, I realized that several sentences between the beginning of the quote and its end have been omitted by whoever they have omitted, without anything hinting to that, like "[...]".

As for topics like the accuracy of the translation, quoting the Arabic original text, or discussing whether that particular Grammar Learning Method I mentioned in post on how I learned Arabic would be the most efficient or not, I'd just to politely let you know that this wouldn't be within the intended purposes of this log. However, if we would have met outside of this forum, I wouldn't have an issue speaking about them, too. In addition, in case it would have been overlooked, I'd also like to remind of the rest of what I wrote in that previous post. I didn't state that I used any particular book as the only source of learning any particular aspect of al3arabiyyah.

But as for spotting grammar patterns like "an object following a verb will have this and that ending", every book containing valid usage (written in any language) can be used to spot them.
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RE: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:09 am

Some Ways of Connecting Drawing to Immersion-Based Word Exploration #ArtInformationOverload

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