SGP's Undaground Mad Not-quite-a-Scientist Languij Gizmos Lab

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SGP
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:35 pm

Quoting someone from another thread.

Daniel N. wrote:
SGP wrote:And then there are the types of tonal/semi-tonal languages where the tones aren't represented by writing. Like Norwegian (maybe SV/DA, too), one or more of BCSM (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrian, even if some consider them one anyway), etc.

The BCMS stress also varies (there are 3 groups od stress patterns) but it also varies in different regions, and in some cities in Croatia - Zagreb included - there are no tones at all, and most nouns have fixed stress which can be on any syllable.
Now I wonder how people from e.g. Zagreb are able to communicate with those from regions where the BCMS tonality is being applied. Do those from other parts of the BCMS countries tend to know that there is no tonality there, or not? And would there be any (severe) misunderstandings?
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby Daniel N. » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:52 pm

SGP wrote:Quoting someone from another thread.

Daniel N. wrote:
SGP wrote:And then there are the types of tonal/semi-tonal languages where the tones aren't represented by writing. Like Norwegian (maybe SV/DA, too), one or more of BCSM (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrian, even if some consider them one anyway), etc.

The BCMS stress also varies (there are 3 groups od stress patterns) but it also varies in different regions, and in some cities in Croatia - Zagreb included - there are no tones at all, and most nouns have fixed stress which can be on any syllable.
Now I wonder how people from e.g. Zagreb are able to communicate with those from regions where the BCMS tonality is being applied. Do those from other parts of the BCMS countries tend to know that there is no tonality there, or not? And would there be any (severe) misunderstandings?

No. Because tones rarely, if ever, distinguish words. Besides, standard BCMS tones are restricted - there are tonal oppositions only on the 1st syllable. All other syllables can have only a rising tone.

If tones were important to distinguish words, we would write them.

If you hear standard papir "paper" with the rising stress on the 1st syllable and Zagreb papir with the stress on the 2nd, everyone knows it's the same thing.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby reineke » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:20 pm

Gore gore gore gore.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:03 pm

reineke wrote:Gore gore gore gore.

Puten!

[Blue: German. Green: Spanish]

Es stimmt, Reineke el Zorro.
That word really is an Aussagekräftiges Example.
Bajo is some of what Google Translate has to say (about Crotian).

Gore:
adverb: above, up, worse, upstairs, atop, overhead.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby Daniel N. » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:55 am

reineke wrote:Gore gore gore gore.

Well only partially, because some words here are actually distinguished by vowel length, and not tone :) And this is a made up sentence anyway - if tones would normally distinguish words, we would write them.

1 gore ("up") - short, short
2 gore ("mountains") - short, short
3 gore ("worse") - short, long
4 gore ("burn") - short, long

Now, you might think that words 1 & 2 are really distinguished by tone - but they're not. Only 3 & 4 are distinguished by tone.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:28 am

Arabic words and their roots

This isn't an answer to any question that was asked. Instead, I am writing it because someone mentioned the current Arabic learning progress to me (after I asked ;)).

(1) Arabic nouns and verbs (at least usually) have got a root that is exactly three letters long.

(2) Usually that root would be fully visible. I.e. all of these three letters would be written.

(3) However, sometimes one or even two would be removed.

(4) Examples of verbs that don't contain all of the three root letters:

قل، لم يكن، لم ينته


qul ("say", imperative singular, male), lam yakun (he wasn't), lam yantahi (he didn't end).

Their roots are:
ق-و-ل، ك-و-ن، ن-ه-ي.


As always, both of the male and female third person singular verb forms could translate to "it" in English. This is because there are exactly two grammatical genders in Arabic.

Basically, "yakuunu" and "yantahii" do end with a long vowel. All three root letters are still there. But it is removed because of the word "lam".

(5) Examples of nouns that don't contain all of the three root letters:

صلة، عظة


silah (connection), 3izah (warning, etc. - several meanings).

Their roots are:
و-ص-ل، و-ع-ظ.


(6) Examples of verbs where one root letter changes without being removed:

قيل، يقال


qiila (it was said), yuqaalu (it is said).

The first word theoretically would be quwila قول، but this is "hard to pronounce" (thaqiil ثقيل), so the Waw letter changed to a Yaa'. And the second one theoretically would be yuqwalu يقول, but again, there was a change, so there is an Alif instead of the Waw.

Their common roots is:
ق-و-ل.


(7) Examples of nouns where one root letter changes without being removed:

إنارة، إيضاح


inaarah (illumination, as in "illuminating a dark room"), iidaa7 (explanation / clarification).

Their roots are:
ن-و-ر، و-ض-ح.


The change is similar to the one described above (--> (6)).

(8) The relation between the Arabic words and their roots often is very obvious. But sometimes it isn't.

(9) Many words have got a root with a single meaning. But sometimes it is very broad-scope, so one wouldn't always be able to connect the meanings of two words with a common root to each other.

(10) And some other roots have two or even more than two meanings.

(11) So in conclusion, while learning about the roots can be really helpful, taking a very close look at them isn't a requirement for learning Arabic vocabulary.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:03 am

General language learning suggestions - Some Out of the Box Thinking Techniques - Making some Esperanto progress - Reaching the EO C1 / C2 level
Version 1.2. WIP.

This post consists of two parts.

(1) General language learning suggestions, including some Out of the Box Thinking Techniques (applicable to ES/IT/RU/you name it as well)

(2) Esperanto learning tips for beginners or intermediates, and Esperanto C1 / C2 tips
(1) General language learning suggestions

- As for the reoccurring words that still wouldn't stick too well, they and their example sentences could be copied and pasted to a notebook file or cited in a (physical) notebook.

- After doing so, a multitude of Spaced Repetition Approaches can be applied. What I personally like to do with "any" language is to add a dot or a vertical bar after every repetition.

- It could be useful to make a difference between having a General C1 / C2 Understanding of Esperanto and knowing all those Specific Jargon Terms out there. To me, "jargon" isn't restricted to rocket science or anything like that. Sometimes I would even call any language's Vocabulary Subset related to cooking, baking, painting, etc., a jargon. There are many people who aren't too familiar with some of those topics even in their native language. And they don't know too many of their specific terms, even if they are Very Very Every-Day Usage to others. Now would those who don't know these expressions be non-fluent or below C2?

- As for the active language skills (speaking and writing), I sometimes really like the idea of Workaround Words. I.e. expressing something by a term that isn't the Most Straight-Forward and Most Eloquent Way of Saying Something, but it still does serve its purpose. For example, in some situations one could say "baking thing" instead of "oven" in English because of simply not knowing it yet. Not denying either that it could be counterproductive in some other situations.

- As for the Very Rare and Entirely Low Frequency Words, I personally wouldn't worry about
them at all. They exist even in one's mother's tongue.

- For those of us who have got an affinity to visual arts: Connecting this hobby to EO learning can result in a Synergy Effect (by the way, this is one of my Most Favorite Expressions ;)).

- Read about some subjects in both of EO and another language (native or not) can be another means of coming closer to C1 / C2.

- Finally, there also is the possibility of thinking once again what C1 or C2 exactly means to oneself, then checking whether this stage really is still "that far away" or not. Some just might discover being closer to it than they used to think.


(2) Esperanto learning tips for beginners or intermediates, and Esperanto C1 / C2 tips

- There is a large number of compound words that basically become clear by knowing the meanings of their base stem and the meaning of the additional affix/es. However, reading some example sentences (especially if they are Real World Usage Based) does have some major merits.

- Some Esperanto words could be difficult to remember for some of the EO learners who are natives of any Germanic or Romance language. If those particular words don't seem too familiar to them because they neither resemble anything Germanic or Romance, nor any of the usual Genuine Esperanto Words, the reason may be their Slavonic origin. L. L. Zamenhof (the inventor of Esperanto) did include a certain amount of them as well. He was very, very familiar with them because of his native language / etc. . It also could help to read just a little bit about the origin of those words or even about Slavonic languages in general. However, I wouldn't consider this to be a Major Puzzle Piece, speaking of the EO learning process.

- TBD: Inserting some EO-specific C1 / C2 tips. As for now, the "only" C1/C2 tips are mentioned above, in the first part, and they are about languages in general. No doubt that they can be applied to EO as well. But there is some room for improvement. This is a rewrite, mind you ;).
Last edited by SGP on Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:12 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Making SGP's posts more/even more useful (whatever applies to you)

Postby SGP » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:54 pm

Currently I am pondering on how to make my posts more / even more useful (whatever applies to you). This is because while I do know that some of them were interesting enough to some (because they told me in one way or another), I also do know that some other posts could also have been more valuable to some, but they weren't, for whatever reason/s.

This is about all of the following:
- The way I am documenting my own language learning process. Including, but not limited to, the multi-language log.
- This very thread, i.e. the Language Lab. For those of you who don't know yet, it is the place where I sometimes also would write about German and one of my C2 languages.
- Any learning technique / etc. reply I sometimes would make.

Anyone's useful suggestions are welcome. I'd just like to let you know that I am much more receptive when anything that could sound like destructive criticism is avoided. So something like "this and that post was simply superfluous and unnecessary" wouldn't be the most useful way of telling me what I could improve.

On the other hand, I am Very Open to the idea of listening to any improvement suggestions or also constructive criticism. The more specific it is, the more likely I am to fully comprehend what you like to tell me. Whatever my point of view would be (agreement, 50% : 50%, or disagreement), I'd really like to adjust my posting style to some extent, within the limits of what I am able to do, and without bending myself, i.e. without trying to act like someone I am not.
Last edited by SGP on Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Making SGP's posts more/even more useful (whatever applies to you)

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:10 pm

As you are requesting this, my suggestions would be to simplify your language and focus on being specific. See below as a possible edit:

SGP wrote:Currently I am pondering on how would like to make my posts more / even more useful(whatever applies to you). This is because while I do know that I've been made aware some of them my posts were interesting enough to some (because they told me in one way or another), I also do know that some other posts could also have been more valuable to some, but they weren't, for whatever reason/s.

This is about the all of them (?) following:
- The way I am documenting my own language learning process. Including, but not limited to, the multi-language log.
- This very thread, i.e. the Language Lab. For those of you who don't know yet,it is the place where I sometimes also would write about German and one of my C2 languages.
- Any learning technique / etc. reply I sometimes would make.

Anyone's uUseful suggestions are welcome. I'd just like to let you know that I am much more receptive when anything that could sound like destructive criticism is avoided. So something like "this and that post was simply superfluous and unnecessary" wouldn't be the most useful way of telling me what I could improve.

On the other hand, I am Very Open to the idea of listening to any improvement suggestions or also constructive criticism. The more specific it is, the more likely I am to fully comprehend what you like to tell me. Whatever my point of view would be (agreement, 50% : 50%, or disagreement), I'd really like to adjust my posting style to some extent, within the limits of what I am able to do, and without bending myself, i.e.without trying to act like someone I am not.


or cleaned up:

SGP wrote:I would like to make my posts more useful. This is because I've been made aware some of my posts were interesting enough, I also know that some other posts could also have been more valuable.

This is about the following:
- The way I am documenting my own language learning process.
- This very thread, i.e. the Language Lab. It is the place where I write about German and one of my C2 languages.
- Any learning technique reply I sometimes make.

Useful suggestions are welcome. I am much more receptive when anything that could sound like destructive criticism is avoided. So something like "this and that post was simply superfluous and unnecessary" wouldn't be the most useful way of telling me what I could improve.

I am open to the idea of improvement suggestions or constructive criticism. The more specific it is, the more likely I am to comprehend what you tell me. Whatever my point of view would be, I'd really like to adjust my posting style to some extent, within the limits of what I am able to do, and without trying to act like someone I am not.


When you write try to talk about specific things and experiences and not the purpose of logs or threads. What specifically are you doing? How are you doing it? Be concrete. Summarize. Use simple sentences. Only use pronouns when they are truly obvious because it, them, they etc... make the reader wander off to see what the subject or object was. Consider a writer that you find informative and copy their style. Avoid lyrical writing or prosody unless it is a specific effect you are looking for. Or if you have doubts, get a copy of the Elements of Style.

Write more about the now and what has been done and not the plausible or imaginary future.

I hope that is useful for you.
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Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:17 pm

Just to be clear, my previous post wasn't about how to reduce the word count or anything like that ;). Because I consider (almost) every single word I wrote down in that post as necessary.

As for the rest... I'd like to think of what you (zenmonkey) wrote two or three more times before posting a reply. Some of it I recognized as useful at first glance, on some we maybe wouldn't agree upon any time soon, and some could need some additional clarification. No matter if it is done by you or someone else.

Also, I am (still) interested in hearing the points of view of others as well.
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