SGP's Undaground Mad Not-quite-a-Scientist Languij Gizmos Lab

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:49 am

[someone] wrote:Hi SGP!

Could you tell me how did you reach C2 level in Arabic? What resources have you used? What were your approaches?
- A lot of speaking practice. In the beginning, this included dropping whatever words I already have learned in some conversations in German. Just like other people drop French or English phrases when talking in their native tongue.

- As for the vocabulary, different approaches have been used. In the beginning: rote memorization. Later, it was much more about Immersion and Exposure Based learning that first was based on repeatedly reading the same content from time to time, later it became close to something that happens automatically, and after that, it continued like automatically learning new English words by context, for what I simply am very grateful.

- Grammar: As for the very basics of it, I learned it in the "old-fashioned" way, by reading "Very Normal Language Textbooks". Later, I switched to learning Arabic in Arabic. Whenever someone is able to do it with any language, I really recommend it. Because then, there is no need of mentally translating back and forth any more.

- Grammar patterns: A lot of them was observed by continually reading and re-reading a certain Very Major Arabic Book that is also among the sources the early grammarians extracted the Arabic grammar from.

- Morphology (sarf): Learned by reading tables then applying, and also directly from the same book I also learned many grammar patterns from.

- There was, well, more than a decade of exposure to (Standard) Arabic. However, I am not at all stating that one would need a decade to learn it. A lot of what I (and many others) know today about Language Learning Efficiency used to be something I was entirely unaware of when I started learning al-3arabiyyah.

(In addition, when I was writing the above paragraph, I also didn't even want to express that it would have taken me a decade to learn it. But it still took me several years.)

(As for the particular resources I used, I couldn't be too specific because of, well, some of their topics or main topics even not always being among those which could be discussed in this forum. But I'd say that "the rest" ;) of this answer still could be useful. It isn't that difficult to find, e.g., reliable books on Arabic grammar.)
Last edited by SGP on Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
1 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


Hashimi
Green Belt
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:45 pm
x 406

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby Hashimi » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:54 am

SGP wrote:- Grammar patterns: A lot of them was observed by continually reading and re-reading a certain Very Major Arabic Book that is also among the sources the early grammarians extracted the Arabic grammar from.


Ibn Khaldun said in his Muqaddimah:

"The fact that the people of Tunisia and the Maghrib restrict themselves to [that book] makes them altogether incapable of mastering the linguistic competence. For as a rule, no linguistic competence can originate from the study of [that book], because no human being can produce anything like it. Thus, human beings are unable to employ or imitate its ways and they also can form no skill in any other respect.
Consequently, a person who knows [that book] does not acquire the competence in the Arabic language. It will be his lot to be awkward in expression and to have little fluency in speaking. Judge Abu Bakr bin Al-Arabi made a remarkable statement when he said how thoughtless are our compatriots in that they teach children [that book] when they are first starting out. They read things they do not understand and work hard at something that is not as important for them as other matters."
0 x

User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:38 am

Hashimi wrote:
SGP wrote:- Grammar patterns: A lot of them was observed by continually reading and re-reading a certain Very Major Arabic Book that is also among the sources the early grammarians extracted the Arabic grammar from.


Ibn Khaldun said in his Muqaddimah:

"The fact that the people of Tunisia and the Maghrib restrict themselves to [that book] makes them altogether incapable of mastering the linguistic competence.[...]"
I'm not sure by whom this translation was written. Also, I didn't really check to what extent it is in accordance with the Arabic text in his "al-muqaddimah", but I nevertheless looked up his original saying. It (theoretically) would be possible that he spoke about this very topic in two different places of his book. But as for the part I just looked up, that includes mentioning the people of Ifriqiyyah/Afriqiyyah and al-Maghrib, and much more, I realized that several sentences between the beginning of the quote and its end have been omitted by whoever they have omitted, without anything hinting to that, like "[...]".

As for topics like the accuracy of the translation, quoting the Arabic original text, or discussing whether that particular Grammar Learning Method I mentioned in post on how I learned Arabic would be the most efficient or not, I'd just to politely let you know that this wouldn't be within the intended purposes of this log. However, if we would have met outside of this forum, I wouldn't have an issue speaking about them, too. In addition, in case it would have been overlooked, I'd also like to remind of the rest of what I wrote in that previous post. I didn't state that I used any particular book as the only source of learning any particular aspect of al3arabiyyah.

But as for spotting grammar patterns like "an object following a verb will have this and that ending", every book containing valid usage (written in any language) can be used to spot them.
1 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

RE: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:09 am

Some Ways of Connecting Drawing to Immersion-Based Word Exploration #ArtInformationOverload

DrawingAndWordExploration.jpg
DrawingAndWordExploration.jpg (146.37 KiB) Viewed 269 times
3 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:35 pm

Quoting someone from another thread.

Daniel N. wrote:
SGP wrote:And then there are the types of tonal/semi-tonal languages where the tones aren't represented by writing. Like Norwegian (maybe SV/DA, too), one or more of BCSM (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrian, even if some consider them one anyway), etc.

The BCMS stress also varies (there are 3 groups od stress patterns) but it also varies in different regions, and in some cities in Croatia - Zagreb included - there are no tones at all, and most nouns have fixed stress which can be on any syllable.
Now I wonder how people from e.g. Zagreb are able to communicate with those from regions where the BCMS tonality is being applied. Do those from other parts of the BCMS countries tend to know that there is no tonality there, or not? And would there be any (severe) misunderstandings?
0 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


Daniel N.
Green Belt
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:44 pm
Languages: Croatian (N), English (C1), German (beginner)
x 672
Contact:

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby Daniel N. » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:52 pm

SGP wrote:Quoting someone from another thread.

Daniel N. wrote:
SGP wrote:And then there are the types of tonal/semi-tonal languages where the tones aren't represented by writing. Like Norwegian (maybe SV/DA, too), one or more of BCSM (Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, Montenegrian, even if some consider them one anyway), etc.

The BCMS stress also varies (there are 3 groups od stress patterns) but it also varies in different regions, and in some cities in Croatia - Zagreb included - there are no tones at all, and most nouns have fixed stress which can be on any syllable.
Now I wonder how people from e.g. Zagreb are able to communicate with those from regions where the BCMS tonality is being applied. Do those from other parts of the BCMS countries tend to know that there is no tonality there, or not? And would there be any (severe) misunderstandings?

No. Because tones rarely, if ever, distinguish words. Besides, standard BCMS tones are restricted - there are tonal oppositions only on the 1st syllable. All other syllables can have only a rising tone.

If tones were important to distinguish words, we would write them.

If you hear standard papir "paper" with the rising stress on the 1st syllable and Zagreb papir with the stress on the 2nd, everyone knows it's the same thing.
4 x
Check Easy Croatian (very useful for Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian as well)

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3519
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6398

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby reineke » Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:20 pm

Gore gore gore gore.
3 x

User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:03 pm

reineke wrote:Gore gore gore gore.

Puten!

[Blue: German. Green: Spanish]

Es stimmt, Reineke el Zorro.
That word really is an Aussagekräftiges Example.
Bajo is some of what Google Translate has to say (about Crotian).

Gore:
adverb: above, up, worse, upstairs, atop, overhead.
0 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log


Daniel N.
Green Belt
Posts: 338
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:44 pm
Languages: Croatian (N), English (C1), German (beginner)
x 672
Contact:

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby Daniel N. » Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:55 am

reineke wrote:Gore gore gore gore.

Well only partially, because some words here are actually distinguished by vowel length, and not tone :) And this is a made up sentence anyway - if tones would normally distinguish words, we would write them.

1 gore ("up") - short, short
2 gore ("mountains") - short, short
3 gore ("worse") - short, long
4 gore ("burn") - short, long

Now, you might think that words 1 & 2 are really distinguished by tone - but they're not. Only 3 & 4 are distinguished by tone.
4 x
Check Easy Croatian (very useful for Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian as well)

User avatar
SGP
Blue Belt
Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
x 283

Re: SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:28 am

Arabic words and their roots

This isn't an answer to any question that was asked. Instead, I am writing it because someone mentioned the current Arabic learning progress to me (after I asked ;)).

(1) Arabic nouns and verbs (at least usually) have got a root that is exactly three letters long.

(2) Usually that root would be fully visible. I.e. all of these three letters would be written.

(3) However, sometimes one or even two would be removed.

(4) Examples of verbs that don't contain all of the three root letters:

قل، لم يكن، لم ينته


qul ("say", imperative singular, male), lam yakun (he wasn't), lam yantahi (he didn't end).

Their roots are:
ق-و-ل، ك-و-ن، ن-ه-ي.


As always, both of the male and female third person singular verb forms could translate to "it" in English. This is because there are exactly two grammatical genders in Arabic.

Basically, "yakuunu" and "yantahii" do end with a long vowel. All three root letters are still there. But it is removed because of the word "lam".

(5) Examples of nouns that don't contain all of the three root letters:

صلة، عظة


silah (connection), 3izah (warning, etc. - several meanings).

Their roots are:
و-ص-ل، و-ع-ظ.


(6) Examples of verbs where one root letter changes without being removed:

قيل، يقال


qiila (it was said), yuqaalu (it is said).

The first word theoretically would be quwila قول، but this is "hard to pronounce" (thaqiil ثقيل), so the Waw letter changed to a Yaa'. And the second one theoretically would be yuqwalu يقول, but again, there was a change, so there is an Alif instead of the Waw.

Their common roots is:
ق-و-ل.


(7) Examples of nouns where one root letter changes without being removed:

إنارة، إيضاح


inaarah (illumination, as in "illuminating a dark room"), iidaa7 (explanation / clarification).

Their roots are:
ن-و-ر، و-ض-ح.


The change is similar to the one described above (--> (6)).

(8) The relation between the Arabic words and their roots often is very obvious. But sometimes it isn't.

(9) Many words have got a root with a single meaning. But sometimes it is very broad-scope, so one wouldn't always be able to connect the meanings of two words with a common root to each other.

(10) And some other roots have two or even more than two meanings.

(11) So in conclusion, while learning about the roots can be really helpful, taking a very close look at them isn't a requirement for learning Arabic vocabulary.
0 x
Previously known as SGP. But my mental username now is langmon.

Log



Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Expugnator and 2 guests