SGP's Language Lab Log

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SGP
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
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SGP's Language Lab Log

Postby SGP » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:25 pm

This log now is meant for anything that wouldn't fit too well in:
- my multi-language log
- the one about All Things Communication
- any other possible future log of mine.

On-topic: any language, any level, even if not including in my learning list.
Also definitely on-topic (despite the title which can be interpreted in more than one way): answers of others on something I asked/hinted to/mentioned.
Last edited by SGP on Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:28 am, edited 16 times in total.
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SGP
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Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
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Re: SGP's Creative Juices Language Question and Answer Research Log

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 am

(Original post not relevant at all any more after the purpose of this log has been changed.)
Last edited by SGP on Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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SGP
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Posts: 812
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: SGP's Creative Juices Language Question and Answer Research Log

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:46 am

Responding to PM input about both of the various dialects and official variants of German

The question which has been asked is:
There are various dialects of a great multitude of languages.
Would you say that there are languages that have a system of dialects and official variants which is similar to the one of German?

Now that inquiry is very, very broad-scope. Possibly even more than the person who asked has been realizing up to now :). But it is entirely on-topic. And yes, it was me who said this one when mentioning the factors that can facilitate both a more complete and more non-slow answer:

SGP wrote:- Asking questions that aren't too specific, but asking those which are more broad-scope and generic than others.


Explanatory notice only: The meaning intended by "broad-scope" in this quote differs from the meaning intended after telling what the question is all about in this very post. One of them is about something that is not too specific, but more generic, like asking "how exactly did Latin influence the verbs of contemporary Spanish" rather than "how exactly did Latin influence the Spanish verb estar?". And the other one is about very broad topics, as opposed to those that can simply be "finished" by writing a few lines only. But again, the above question is Fully On Topic and Entirely Within This Log's Scope.

Now providing some Partial Answer Puzzle Pieces.

- It isn't always that easy to draw an exact Line of Distinction between dialects and languages.

- Some would consider German and Dutch two distinct languages, while others wouldn't do so.

- Even when not considering German and Dutch one single language, there still are (at least) seven (!) countries and regions in Europe where German is spoken as the/a native language.

They do not only include "die üblichen Verdächtigen" :lol: who are Deutschland, Österreich und die Schweiz. There are four others, and they are Südtirol (im Norden von Italien [nicht "nördlich von Italien"]), Liechtenstein, Luxemburg, und ein Teil von Belgien.

- Within both of Germany and Austria, there is a great multitude of dialects and sub-dialects.

- As for illustrating the differences between the different dialects, we could also keep in mind that there is something like a dialect continuum. If there was a conversation between a Bayer and a Hamburger in their local dialects, it isn't too easy for both of them to understand each other. But a Bayer can talk to a Baden-Württemberger speaker of Swabian rather easily.

That's all for now :).

If the person who asked the question is able to assemble these puzzle pieces, possibly combining them with some more, to get a More Complete Partial Picture, it is Very Possible to re-ask the question based on the Partial Picture that already has become clear.

Also, I don't have any particular static upper limit for the same person asking questions in mind. I.e. I am not telling any of those for whom this log is intended to only ask one question a week or something like that.
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SGP
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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About paying money for artificial conversations

Postby SGP » Sat Dec 01, 2018 7:50 am

"Outsourcing" something to this log, to avoid anything off-topic there (also related to possible replies of others). It wouldn't fit too well in my main log either. So I just changed the purpose of the Creative Juices [which now is simply titled Everything Else] log a bit :o :D.

Xmmm wrote:It's weird to pay money to have artificial conversations with people.
Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 50#p124750

From a certain perspective, this could be paying money for something that even slows down one's learning progress.

Or for language exchange, it might be slightly less weird but it obviously takes twice as long so it has its own problems.
If it is a "you teach me NL and I teach you KO" tandem, yes. Not being the biggest fan of this approach... and people who teach their native language that way also can tend to introduce a lot of as-if-scripted conversations.

But there also is the possibility of practicing one language together.

Xmmm wrote:* I should add that when I wake up on a day when I have a morning tutoring session, my initial reaction is always the same "Oh God, why am I doing this to myself?" For me, that tends to be a sign that I'm doing something that's good for me. I don't get the same reaction from Assimil active wave, etc.
Now why exactly is that a sign to you?
Last edited by SGP on Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SGP
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Posts: 812
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: About paying money for artificial conversations

Postby SGP » Sun Dec 02, 2018 11:55 pm

SGP wrote:"Outsourcing" something to this log, to avoid anything off-topic there (also related to possible replies of others). It wouldn't fit too well in my main log either. So I just changed the purpose of the Creative Juices log a bit :o :D.
Because I cannot expect everyone to always read the first post (that I changed again right now), just wanted to quote it in this one:

SGP wrote:This log now is meant for anything that wouldn't fit too well in:
- my multi-language log
- the one about All Things Communication
- any other possible future log of mine.

On-topic: any language, any level, even if not including in my learning list.
Also definitely on-topic (despite the title which can be interpreted in more than one way): answers of others on something I asked/hinted to/mentioned.
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SGP
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Posts: 812
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby SGP » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Elenia wrote:
SGP wrote:[...] Off-topic (could be covered elsewhere): When saying "All Things ...", is it more common to add an -s to the "..." word or not?
[...] @SGP - I'd say it's not common. It sounds unnatural to my ears, at least in the sentence above. I don't know if there are times when that would change, though.
Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 33#p125133

@Elenia: Do you mean that adding the -s sounds unnatural to you? Or is it even about "all things ..." in general? In the latter case, this could be because it is more of an Americanism. Those on the other side of the Great Lake do like to use it quite a lot, it seems.
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SGP
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby SGP » Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:03 am

StringerBell wrote:
SGP wrote: A long time ago, I considered my pronunciation of a particular language more advanced than it really was. That prevented me from even thinking about improving it.

That's a really interesting way to think about it; this idea that ingenuine (<<< I might have just made up a word there, that spelling looks really weird to me) flattery could actually cause more harm than good never occurred to me before.

Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p125486

For those of you who haven't read my original original post: I didn't consider my previous pronunciation of a certain language to be more advanced because of flattery. But I did mention that sometimes, students could think that their own pronunciation is more advanced because of flattery. The reply was related to my full post, not only to the portion quoted by StringerBell.

If some of you did think that you already made more progress with any language than you really did, because of flattery and similar comments, I'd like to hear about it.
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SGP
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Posts: 812
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby SGP » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:19 pm

iguanamon wrote:If I go on to learn Russian, Arabic, French, Italian, German, Swahili or Sranan Tongo, how will I make room for them? How can I make room for them? That's probably too much thinking. I would have never thought that I could make room for seven languages eight and a half years ago when I first joined HTLAL. If I learn a next language, it will most likely sort itself out and find its place alongside the others.
As for Swahili, maybe a certain niche language learning approach could work for you, too. At least it works for me. It is the "most niche" idioma on my list. Don't know anyone with whom I could converse in it. But still I continue to learn it, and there even is some real progress as well.

The introduction of "Teach Yourself Swahili" (the old version by D.V. Perrott) was written by a non-native, more specifically, a consul from Zanzibar IIRC. He/she stated that "Swahili is very easy to learn, in fact, it is the easiest language/among the easiest ones". While this may be just a little bit of a stretch, I still agree with the main message. Almost all verbs are fully (100%) regular. The subjunctive is formed by changing the ending vowel to -e only. Etc. Yes, it has about 10 noun classes, but can get used to them, too.There seems to be something special about Swahili and what I perceive as ease of learning. This may be related to its past, because it started as sort of a creole or an (advanced) pidgin even. In addition, Swahili speakers tend to write just as they would speak, too.

The way I, personally, continue to study Swahili is to give it a special treatment by not including it in the learning list's subset of languages being learned in rotation, being queued or unqueued, and by not pushing the Swahili Pause and Resume Buttons, as I do with the others. Instead, I simply continue to learn it independently from all of them whenever there is some time and a good occasion, as a little leisure activity. Sometimes I also do sing in it.
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), EN-AFR/EN-CAR (B2 / C2), Alpha Centaurian (C2), AR (C2), ES (B2), FR (B1 / B2), NL (A1 / B2), AF (pre-A1 / B2), SWA (A2 / B1), SV/DA/NO (pre-A1 / B2), PT (pre-A1 / B2), IT (pre-A1 / B2), RO (pre-A1 / B2), LAT (pre-A1 / B2), EO (pre-A1 / B2), JP (A1), toki pona (A1), micro-learning several others.
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Re: SGP's "Everything Else" Language Log

Postby SGP » Sun Dec 30, 2018 7:59 am

DE: The Information / Informationen distinction

In German, "information" will be translated as Information or Informationen, it depends. No doubt that the first word is the singular, and the second one is the plural. So one single hint/clue/... would be "eine Information", and four of them would be "vier Informationen".

In English, that distinction isn't being made, because (EN) information is a Sammelbegriff anyway (= collective term). Just as you wouldn't say "I have got some milks" when referring to several glasses of milk, you also wouldn't say "Can you give me more informations?". And "Milch" isn't pluralized either, but some German speakers definitely do pluralize (EN) "information", because of translating it in a very literal way.
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Six Arabic Learning Tools

Postby SGP » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:21 am

These are some Arabic Learning Tools that can be included in one's toolbox. Anyone learning al-lughah al-3arabiyyah can take whatever they like, no matter if it is a hammer, a screwdriver, or anything else.

(1) Arabic nouns and verbs words usually have a three-letter root that is fully visible. "kitabun" كتاب (book) has the root letters k-t-b. So that Alif letter isn't included in the root of "kitabun", but all the other letters are. Short vowels aren't called letters (7uruf حروف), but 7arakat حركات, i.e. "movements".

(2) The first root letter also is called Fa' ف , the second one is 3Ayn ع , and the third one is Lam ل. Together, they are fa3ala فعل , which is the verb "to do", but it also is the Unique One-Of-A-Kind Most Basic Arabic Word Template. These templates are called awzan أوزان , which also means "weights". Some verb conjugation tables only mention the different regular conjugations of fa3ala فعل , but that shouldn't be taken too literal. Some of these variants of fa3ala aren't used too often, if they are used at all (like fa3ala with a long vowel after the fa', i.e. فاعل). In reality, these tables are mainly about how to conjugate any regular verb. One simply would replace the three fa3ala فعل letters with the three root letters of another verb.

(3) There are two types of dictionaries. Some, including a great multitude of the pre-contemporary ones, are entirely based on the root letters. Others are entirely based on the alphabet only. So if they mention a plural that starts with a different letter, it could be 200 pages away even.

(4) In Standard Arabic, there isn't a single fully irregular verb I am aware of. There is a certain number of semi-irregular ones. But every one of them is conjugated according to its particular subcategory. If that verb has exactly one "specialty" (3illah علة , but this isn't a literal translation), then it will be conjugated the very same way as every single other verb sharing the same "specialty". Like qala yaqulu قال يقول and كان يكون kana yakunu. If there are any verbs at all with two "specialties" rather than one only, all of them who share the same two "specialties" will also be conjugated in the very same way. Although if they really exist, they are very rare.

(5) You can color-code the nouns and verbs. Either by singling out the root letters, or by also color-coding any additional letters.

(6) Root words never contain an Alif. If an Alif is found in a particular form (like qala قال), it is there because of a Consonant Transformation only. If "qala" was entirely regular, it would be qawala قول. But there was that change that just has been mentioned. Instead of an Alif, the root letter could be a Waw و or a Ya' ي. It is a Waw in the case of "qala" and "kana". There also possibly is a third case. If it exists, it would be a Hamzah (Hamzah al-Qat3 همزة القطع to be exact), which is written in any of these ways: ء أ ئ ؤ , depending on the particular word. That Hamzah definitely does exist in a multitude of words. But can it be a part of the very Arabic Word Root or not? That one I wouldn't know without some research.
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