All Things Communication [retired!]

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SGP
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All Things Communication (previously titled: the language called communication)

Postby SGP » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:08 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:I associate French with Paris, a city I have loved since I first visited as a kid. French is shiny, bright, and escapist or at least I want it to be. I associate German with my immigrant ancestors. They left farms in Europe and found new farms in Wisconsin and Minnesota. German is cold and dark and deeply familiar.
Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 34#p124331

Really interesting how the associations of different people are. As a native speaker of German, I of course call it deeply familiar, but it isn't cold and dark to me. Just thought of toddlers' first (speaking) steps... sooo funny :D. They tend to make up so many things, German is a very big playground for them. Especially about treating irregular verbs regular. Comparable to a Spanish toddler saying "yo sabo" :lol: instead of "yo sé" (--> saber). And French... nowadays it is shiny to me, too. Before, it used to be sort of a mystery to me that I didn't decipher yet.

[*] Any natural language I don't love? "Das sprengt meine Vorstellungskraft" (i.e. trying to even imagine that is beyond me).

Obviously these are generalizations, but I do think we can have different emotional attachments to different languages, even though these languages are both used everyday in every possible genre, they speak *to me* in specific ways.
I disagree, except for 100% of what you just said. Same here, too.
cjareck wrote:I remember reading in German official history of the Great War that Germans managed to fight off a major British attack. So I wanted to check it in British official history of the war, and it was not even mentioned there. In many other cases, I had to analyse both texts carefully and look at the maps to figure out how it REALLY looked like. Because both descriptions were sometimes far from the truth. That was my point. Hope you are satisfied with the answer ;)
Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 34#p124329

This was a complete answer, no doubt. But it contained a new question mark :).
Was it maybe like both of them (UK and Germany) saying many true things about their opponents mistakes/shortcomings/etc., but not about their own ones?
Last edited by SGP on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The language called communication [a learner's log]: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of beha

Postby cjareck » Tue Nov 27, 2018 10:29 pm

SGP wrote:This was a complete answer, no doubt. But it contained a new question mark :).
Was it maybe like both of them (UK and Germany) saying many true things about their opponents mistakes/shortcomings/etc., but not about their own ones?

That is only partially true. They probably tried (deliberately or not) to improve the meaning of their successes and to downgrade own failures and also to stress the weaknesses of the opponent. The differences can be also due to a different perception of the facts by both sides.
I believe that there is a real, an objective course of the events. I find my role as to find it or to close to it by reading subjective sources. There is no other way for a historian to go. At least in my opinion.
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Re: The language called communication [a learner's log]: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of beha

Postby Theodisce » Wed Nov 28, 2018 12:14 am

Regarding emotional reactions to different languages, German has always been something familiar to me. It has nothing to do with my knowledge of the language which was close to non-existent till fairly recently (2014 was a milestone, because I managed to do at least two hours of German every single day). I've always considered German to be - perhaps in a manner that to many may appear strange - a part of my cultural heritage. It has something to do with my home town being right at the old Austro-Russian border, with German being the language of classical scholarship, with my perception of it as being unique, demanding and mysterious - the later probably due to the lack of the omnipresence English has been enjoying in my homeland since few decades. Later on I discovered its striking similarities with Czech. Plus, Eliot's German line "Bin gar keine Russin, stamm' aust Litauen, echt deutsch" (The Waste Land) is something I will never be able to forget.

cjareck wrote:I believe that there is a real, an objective course of the events. I find my role as to find it or to close to it by reading subjective sources. There is no other way for a historian to go. At least in my opinion.


I would say analyzing different discourses and competing narratives is very rewarding too :). That a source disfigures the true course of events tells us something true about that source.
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Re: The language called communication [a learner's log]: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of beha

Postby cjareck » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:35 pm

Theodisce wrote:I would say analyzing different discourses, and competing narratives is very rewarding too :). That a source disfigures, the true course of events tells us something true about that source.

I agree with the above. In case of my example, this was obvious - there were both official histories that should stress the heroism of respective armies. The truth was not the most important for the Authors.
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Re: The language called communication [a learner's log]: reading between the lines, misunderstandings, patterns of beha

Postby SGP » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:10 am

This log still is of great importance to me.
Nevertheless, there are two changes now:

- It no longer is my main project, but one of my two major ones on LLorg.
- It still is in "no output without input" mode. However, I now am extending that "input" part :). Now it also includes any current personal impressions/experiences/... of myself that are important enough to be covered.
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Postby SGP » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:37 am

"Unwritten rule" on LLorg?

A rather long time ago, someone mentioned an "unwritten rule" of LLorg (in a PM): Anybody writing a log shouldn't post in his/her own log more often than a single time every day.

If this really is the "general perception", rather than some individual's only, I'd just like to know it.

I, personally, definitely would disagree with the idea of "not more than one time a day". But hear me out. While I would disagree in the inside, I also like to come closer to others whenever I am able to do so. So if there really is such an "unwritten rule", I would be inclined to not posting [at all/much more than] one time a day, at most, in every log of these (currently) three. Without feeling being bound to this "unwritten rule", but because of, y'know... applying All Things Communication ;).

People can have various reasons for making a few (short) learning status updates during the day. And the readers would always have the possibility of either reading these updates, or simply deciding not to :).
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Re:

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:42 am

Almost all people do not post more than once a day in a log, but I've always considered this as being the equivalent of a journal entry, and those tend to be a "one per day max" type of writings.

But there aren't really rules on frequency. Do what you like.

However, if you are writing to be read - then consider that content and quality matter. Style matters. It isn't about writing whatever crosses your mind but engaging with the reader is a way that is readable and meaningful to them to some level. Or using the log as a marker of activity. Or a mix. Align it to the expectations you have of the interaction you wish to have.
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Re: Re:

Postby SGP » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:05 pm

zenmonkey wrote:However, if you are writing to be read - then consider that content and quality matter. Style matters. It isn't about writing whatever crosses your mind but engaging with the reader is a way that is readable and meaningful to them to some level. Or using the log as a marker of activity. Or a mix. Align it to the expectations you have of the interaction you wish to have.
Reminders like that one always could be helpful to everyone.
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Re: All Things Communication (previously titled: the language called communication)

Postby SGP » Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:35 am

devilyoudont wrote:But I feel like fundamentally the same person as I always was, and I have the same personality regardless of what language I am using.
SGP wrote:Others (including me) also experienced something like this. The languages one knows of course wouldn't automatically turn anyone's personality upside down or anything :).
Source: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 91#p125191
devilyoudont wrote:I would go as far as to say I am an extreme skeptic of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis.
SGP wrote:This thesis isn't where I am coming from either.
There would be an example of someone still being moved by some languages, because they taught him something / reminded him of sth. once again. But because of not being entirely sure how much you would like to read about the experiences of others in your own log, outsourcing it :).

So these are some examples. First, I would mention what they taught me / reminded me of. And then the particular reason, too.

German: Some tools and building blocks (in a very broad sense) can be combined with each other for a more useful result.

There are very many compound nouns in German. They consist of two or even more single nouns. Those natives of German like making up new words sometimes ;), but not everyone in the same way. This principle also is found in Finnish (to a lesser degree as they say), Russian and several others. It also is a Very Major And Even Essential part of toki pona.

English: Some simplicity can go a long, long way.

This is about the previous case system which largely (but not entirely) has been dropped. And in addition, it is also about Simple English which I consider one of several possibilities of [one way / mutual] expression, but not something that is necessary for everyone.

Arabic: Some things don't fit into the regular and well-known categories. But there still could be a subcategory that is suitable for all of them.

SGP wrote:I do not recall having encountered any Really Irregular Verb (as in German, Spanish, ...). Yes, there is a number of them that are semi-irregular. But that just means that because of a certain specialty (3illah / علة), they slightly differ from the rest. However, any other verb with the same specialty will be conjugated the very same way.

Japanese: You don't always need to do everything you could do.

There already is a large number of syllables being used. But many others are simply being omitted.

Swahili: Doing things that need to be done, but without rushing in or trying to do them faster than you are able to.

A proverb.

toki pona: In some cases it can be helpful not to provide any details at all. And also to express oneself in a way that doesn't even convey one's whole communicational message to others, but at the same time greatly reduces the possibility of misunderstandings.

This language contains some ambiguity that cannot be removed by solely using toki pona only. It is there by design, it was an intentional decision of the linguist who made this constructed language. And she, herself, is very well aware of the fact that TP isn't an all-purpose language anyway. There are things it surely can be used for, and there are others that could only be spoken of in another language (natural, or constructed).
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Re: All Things Communication (previously titled: the language called communication)

Postby SGP » Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:36 pm

It's just that I am, arguably, among this forum's "Sometimes Very Talkative Language Enthusiastic Geekoids" :D. Or maybe the only one? But that doesn't matter too much right now anyway.
Now it could be the right time for another Very Direct SGP Question.

I would like to ask it for three reasons:

- To know how something particular looks like in the eyes of you (i.e. any person replying), because we, of course, don't have the very same thoughts about everything.

- To be able to also consider your input for any future posts.

- And for the purpose of ourselves contributing something that could also be of help to some of the silent readers. Some of them maybe wouldn't ask a similar question themselves, while being interested in the answers.

So my very direct two-part question is:

- How do you perceive my sometimes rather big enthusiasm when speaking about languages? No matter if you don't have any issue with it, consider it annoying even, or its presence/absence doesn't make any difference to you, you are among those who could answer ;).

- What about my attitude of tending to open up myself very much, even if there are many of you whom I don't really know that well / that well yet (it depends of course)?

Unlike a previous question of a similar type some time ago, today I am not asking because I consider this enthusiasm / opening up oneself something that I should change. But I am still very interested in knowing how both of it (or just one) looks in your eyes, because it is about ... All Things Communication ... after all ;). And I am among those who sometimes adapt to something because of some specific reasons, even if they wouldn't adapt to it otherwise. This of course isn't about bending myself or anything, but about aiming to make some more steps towards optimizing communication and human interaction.
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