Chove's Log

[chove]

humm... given the number of views and liked posts you've had, I think you're probably doing OK and people are interested.

Good to know!

[Caromarlyse]

I don't really know what to put in this log, I don't think I have many significant "breakthroughs" or any interesting experiences (I don't travel even when there's no plague going around), so what sort of thing do people like to read in such things? Suggestions are welcome. I keep thinking "oh, I should write something in my log" and then I get a bit stuck for content people might be interested in.

Today I did quite a bit, including telling myself that I can't learn Dutch because I already have too much to be doing even on a hobby basis. It's just such a pretty language. I suppose it's not terribly "useful" but I like the sound of it. Also I am trying to actually buckle down and get on with Polish, I've been learning it for years yet I've probably done about 200-250 hours in total. Which I suppose means I'm about where I should be for time spent on it I've been thinking of hours as probably the best way to measure time spent learning, like there's that dude that does a language in three months because he puts the hours in. (I know he's controversial, but he does at least get something learned even if it's not the promised fluency.) At least that way I know I'm just lazy rather than stupid

Also I think my university course was a bit... not good. I've heard that one should generally not do a languages degree unless you're needing certification of some sort, but we had maybe 15 contact hours a year and no chance to speak outside of those hours unless we tracked down other students and put them on WhatsApp. I'm far too reclusive for that sort of thing. And more generally with taught courses you have to do what you're told to do that week, which can be very difficult if the topic's dull. The Open University seems to be very into social media and recycling as topics, I think we did those every year in both languages. It did keep me working fairly consistently, but I don't miss it and I'm a lot happier without the stress of essays and exams and so on. Though the essays were only about 500 words most of the time. That seems very short, but I never did languages at my old brick university so maybe that's about average. I can defintely see how it's possible to graduate from a language degree and barely be able to use the language.

I've had similar issues about what to write, though in my case I'm self-censoring a bit. There's stuff I'd like to bounce with others who are interested (aka nobody in my real life does anything but make the right noises!), but don't feel comfortable putting in a public forum. Not because of anything too out there or anything; it's probably just out of over-caution. Anyway, for what it's worth, I think you're doing fine.

I told my husband how many hours I'd spent to date on Russian and what time estimates are out there, and I think he now might be thinking I am actually stupid...!

I did a languages degree many moons ago. From what I see/read about languages students now, the amount of contact time seems to have decreased over the years, which seems a bit unfair given the fees situation nowadays. Even back then I always thought language teaching did students a disservice - I knew science students who had hours of labs each week, and thought that that could easily transfer over to language teaching/learning, but for some reason the message there is that you need private study time to do stuff on your own. Which is obviously true to an extent, but if you're paying to be educated, surely you deserve some hand holding?!

[chove]

I did a languages degree many moons ago. From what I see/read about languages students now, the amount of contact time seems to have decreased over the years, which seems a bit unfair given the fees situation nowadays. Even back then I always thought language teaching did students a disservice - I knew science students who had hours of labs each week, and thought that that could easily transfer over to language teaching/learning, but for some reason the message there is that you need private study time to do stuff on your own. Which is obviously true to an extent, but if you're paying to be educated, surely you deserve some hand holding?!

Yeah, I'd think a language student would be needing a lot of hours, there's a lot of things that need explained and you need feedback on whether you're doing it correctly, as well as the obvious need for practice. I suppose if they charged for degrees by contact hours we'd have nobody willing to do the sciences because they'd cost too much to study. Doing it at an online university (or any university in a Corona year) is even trickier because there's no population of other students around to talk to about it, and online forums can only replace that so much.

What was your course like, if you don't mind me asking? Mine ended up mostly being reading short texts and the occasional grammar explanation, because of the lack of contact hours. It was basically like following a coursebook, which doesn't seem worth it for the price (my studies with the Open University were free because I'm in Scotland and on disability).

[gsbod]

Open University degrees, like any degree in the UK, are quality assured to ensure that standards align with degrees offered at other institutions. So if you complete the level three modules, you can expect to cover similar material and have to produce work to a similar standard to students in their final year of other language degrees.

I think the issue here is that since the Open University is distance learning, the reality is that most of the time you will be sat at your desk studying on your own, which is quite different to studying at a "bricks and mortar" uni. That being said, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the benefits of additional contact time for developing your speaking skills. A couple of tutors I've had for language classes have also taught on undergraduate degree courses, and they generally had the expectation that the university classes would focus on things like grammar, comprehension and translation, and the real progress on speaking and listening happened as if by magic on the year abroad! The issue with the OU is, then, that the year abroad isn't part of the course, so you have to proactively find other ways to develop your speaking and listening skills if this is important to you.

As for whether a language degree is worth it or not overall really depends on your circumstances and career aims. It's the most common pathway into teaching and a common pathway into translation (most of the language graduates I know are professional translators). Whether the outlay for the fees is worth it to pursue either career is a personal decision I guess. If you just want to learn a language, there are probably better, or at least more cost effective options, for this. Although if you're getting your fees paid for you, that is about as cost effective as it gets!

[Caromarlyse]

Yeah, I'd think a language student would be needing a lot of hours, there's a lot of things that need explained and you need feedback on whether you're doing it correctly, as well as the obvious need for practice. I suppose if they charged for degrees by contact hours we'd have nobody willing to do the sciences because they'd cost too much to study. Doing it at an online university (or any university in a Corona year) is even trickier because there's no population of other students around to talk to about it, and online forums can only replace that so much.

What was your course like, if you don't mind me asking? Mine ended up mostly being reading short texts and the occasional grammar explanation, because of the lack of contact hours. It was basically like following a coursebook, which doesn't seem worth it for the price (my studies with the Open University were free because I'm in Scotland and on disability).

Definitely, and I've noticed that paying for 1:1 tuition now is really accelerating the learning process compared to the normal school/university system (though, having said that, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's something to be said for just logging up a long period of time with a language to allow stuff to sink in slowly). That's obviously not going to be what you get at university, and, on the flip side, with informal tuition you lack the structure that academic courses provide. Ideally you'd have both in a languages degree, but it would start getting expensive to provide...

I don't have too accurate a recollection of my course, as it was quite a while ago now! We had a native speaker to speak with in a small group each week, and then had various kinds of classes for translation into and out of the TL (written) and into English only (oral). I think there was some kind of remedial grammar in the first year, but it was something you were meant to do on your own; we certainly never handed in exercises or anything like that. The dissertations were extended pieces of research presented in writing and orally in the TL. There was some literature analysis (in the TL), and then minimal bits of linguistics and culture in English. I think the level was good compared with other UK universities (when on my year abroad, in the TL as a foreign language classes I placed quite high in the streamed classes), but I definitely see holes looking back. Some of it is changed times: we had to rely on recorded programmes in the TL, rather than having loads of stuff available at the touch of a button, for example. Some of the problem, in my view, is that academia doesn't tend to like focusing on skill development, so really refining the language is not valued as much as I think it ought to be, and time instead gets filled with literature/politics/culture.

[gsbod]

As for what level of language you should have with a language degree, of the language grads I know who have maintained their skills, it really ranges from borderline B2/C1 through to so good I thought they were a native speaker!

What Caromarlyse said about a focus on academia rather than skill development at university is also quite pertinent. My undergraduate degree was in music and although my musicianship skills never developed to a level where I could become a professional musician/composer/whatever, I still managed to scrape through with a reasonable classification because I was able to research and write a solid essay by the end of the course (and chose my final modules accordingly).

[SCMT]

I don't really know what to put in this log, I don't think I have many significant "breakthroughs" or any interesting experiences (I don't travel even when there's no plague going around), so what sort of thing do people like to read in such things?

I read logs for a couple of reasons. I like to see what other people studying languages are experiencing, good and bad; what works and what doesn't, where and how they struggle, how and why they succeed. It makes my own experience less isolated, gives me ideas and inspiration, and is generally entertaining to have a small glimpse into the experiences of others trying to do the same sort of thing I'm doing.

I also like being supportive of other members, especially because so many on this forum have been supportive of me. I want to advance in my language for my own reasons, but I want to be able to post about actual advancements so the kind people on here can read about them, and that encourages me to do a little more (and I promise I will get back to advancing and posting soon!) I read, and like, the logs of others so that they can have the same sort of positive feedback I've gotten.

So to answer your question directly, I like to read what you have been posting--why you like Dutch, the struggle to dig in to Polish, the good and bad about Charlie and his Chocolate and Lemony Snicket in whichever languages they were. It is interesting, and it gives me a sense of shared experience as well as laying out plans and ideas for my own learning, even if you don't see them as significant or interesting. The process is significant and interesting to me, and I appreciate you sharing it with the forum.

[chove]

Definitely, and I've noticed that paying for 1:1 tuition now is really accelerating the learning process compared to the normal school/university system (though, having said that, I'm coming to the conclusion that there's something to be said for just logging up a long period of time with a language to allow stuff to sink in slowly). That's obviously not going to be what you get at university, and, on the flip side, with informal tuition you lack the structure that academic courses provide. Ideally you'd have both in a languages degree, but it would start getting expensive to provide...

I don't have too accurate a recollection of my course, as it was quite a while ago now! We had a native speaker to speak with in a small group each week, and then had various kinds of classes for translation into and out of the TL (written) and into English only (oral). I think there was some kind of remedial grammar in the first year, but it was something you were meant to do on your own; we certainly never handed in exercises or anything like that. The dissertations were extended pieces of research presented in writing and orally in the TL. There was some literature analysis (in the TL), and then minimal bits of linguistics and culture in English. I think the level was good compared with other UK universities (when on my year abroad, in the TL as a foreign language classes I placed quite high in the streamed classes), but I definitely see holes looking back. Some of it is changed times: we had to rely on recorded programmes in the TL, rather than having loads of stuff available at the touch of a button, for example. Some of the problem, in my view, is that academia doesn't tend to like focusing on skill development, so really refining the language is not valued as much as I think it ought to be, and time instead gets filled with literature/politics/culture.

My course didn't have literature, which is a bit odd I think as these things go? I don't know why that is though. We were supposed to be C1 by the end and so in theory I should be that in Spanish but I'm very... not. But then I found it hard to focus a lot of the time, and to get motivated to do anything like enough studying, which is at least partly due to illness. I do know the amount of studying among students varied wildly, and so did the levels of previous experience with the language(s).

[chove]

As for what level of language you should have with a language degree, of the language grads I know who have maintained their skills, it really ranges from borderline B2/C1 through to so good I thought they were a native speaker!

From my (rare) interactions with other students it did seem to vary a lot, but then it had varied a lot when we started -- we had complete beginners and native speakers.

So to answer your question directly, I like to read what you have been posting--why you like Dutch, the struggle to dig in to Polish, the good and bad about Charlie and his Chocolate and Lemony Snicket in whichever languages they were. It is interesting, and it gives me a sense of shared experience as well as laying out plans and ideas for my own learning, even if you don't see them as significant or interesting. The process is significant and interesting to me, and I appreciate you sharing it with the forum.

Thanks, I shall try to keep it interesting then!

[chove]

Am I right in thinking if I invert for a question in French (parlez-vous, etc) then I don't use est-ce que as well? Are they mutually exclusive?

Edit: Managed to find a French speaker I know on Twitter and they said it's an either/or