"SGP's" gradually learning some languages log

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SGP
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:14 pm

Japanese:

ga: One of those "marker" words. Still trying to decipher the secret ;) of "when to use wa and when to use ga". But hopefully examples like these will make it at least a bit more clear.

"What else do we need?
他に何いりますか?
hoka ni nani ga irimasu ka?"

"I’m missing a fork.
フォーク足りません。
fōku ga tarimasen."

"I’m missing a knife.
ナイフ足りません。
naifu ga tarimasen."

"I’m missing a spoon.
スプーン足りません。
supūn ga tarimasen."

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SGP
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Posts: 929
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:58 pm

Now there would be a second Language Cooking (= Micro Learning) log, too.
It is about Hungarian, Czech, Greek, Albanian, Bulgarian, and Polish.

https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9341

This link also includes a list of (possible) FAQs, like: "why exactly did you start a second Language Cooking log without even finishing the first one", etc. Hint: these two logs are about beginning, but not necessarily about finishing. :)

At the time I am writing this post, neither the log you are reading right now nor the first Language Cooking log have been quit.

(There is a number of posts in that Language Cooking Log. Afterwards, I merged it with the multi-language log you are reading right now. This means that I wouldn't post anything new there, but here only).
Last edited by SGP on Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SGP
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Posts: 929
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 30#p120230
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Turtle speed metaphor (EN/ES/DE)

Postby SGP » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:47 pm

A shared metaphor between English, Spanish and German: turtle speed.

English: "Someone is as slow as a turtle".

Spanish: a paso de tortuga, approx.: "at the speed of a turtle".

Also, one of the dictionary meanings of "tortuga" simply is: alguien que va muy lento.

German: "So langsam wie eine Schildkröte" (as slow as a turtle). And also: "So langsam wie eine Schnecke" (as slow as a snail).
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SGP
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:58 pm

Sensing a mild boost and increase of the speaking ability (Spanish, French, Swahili). I am simply very grateful for this one. It isn't entirely unrelated to using these languages for reading and writing. Instead, there is some interlinking. Changed the description in my profile's language list just a little bit. Before: "reading/writing:". Now: "-> Main <- focus on reading/writing:".
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SGP
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:51 pm

Comparing Italian and Portuguese:

"Cosa vuoi cucinare oggi?
O que é que queres cozinhar hoje?"

"Dove sono le stoviglie?
Onde é que está a louça?"

"Fai bollire la zuppa in quella pentola?
Cozinhas a sopa nesta panela?"

"Cuoci la verdura su quella griglia?
Grelhas os legumes neste grelhador?"
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devilyoudont
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Posts: 440
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Location: Philadelphia
Languages: EN (N), EO (C), JA (B), ES (a mess), KO (dabbling)
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby devilyoudont » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:59 am

SGP wrote:Japanese:

ga: One of those "marker" words. Still trying to decipher the secret ;) of "when to use wa and when to use ga".


Summarizing from the Dictionary of Basic Japanese grammar, using examples from there as well to ensure grammatical correctness.

Generally speaking:

--WA is used as a marker for something that has already been introduced into the conversation. In this kind of situation use of WA and GA somewhat corresponds to use of "THE" and "A" in English.

昔々、一人のおじいさんが住んでいました。おじいさんはとてもやさしい人です。
mukashi mukashi, hitori no ojiisan GA sunde imashita. ojiisan WA totemo yasashii hito desu.
Once upon a time, there lived AN old man. THE old man was a very gentle man.

Cases when one should prefer WA instead of GA when the above hasn't happened:
--Proper nouns
--One of a kind nouns (the sun, the sky)
--Talking about a generic noun ("Speaking of cars..." rather than talking about a specific car)
--Use WA to mark a specific part of a phrase as negative

私はきのうボストンへ行かなかった。
watashi wa kinou bosuton e ikanakatta
(generic) I didn't go to Boston yesterday.

私はきのうはボストンへ行かなかった。
watashi wa kinou wa bosuton e ikanakatta
(I went some other day)

私はきのうボストンへは行かなかった。
watashi wa kinou bosuton e wa ikanakatta
(implies I went somewhere else)


Cases where GA should be preferred over WA:

--If a question word (who, what, where, etc) is the subject of a sentence, do not ever attach WA. One way to think of this is that the TOPIC cannot be an unknown, but the grammatical subject can be. WA can attach to other words within a question sentence, but not to the question word itself.

今晩誰が来ますか。
konban dare ga kimasu ka.
Who is coming tonight?

--Typically, GA will be used for the subject of a subordinate clause, and WA for the main clause

私はデビーがフランスへ行くことをしらなかった。
watashi wa debii ga furansu e iku koto o shiranakatta.
I didn't know that Debbie was going to France.

--There are many cases in Japanese where we would express something as "SUBJECT VERB OBJECT" in English, that grammatically cannot take an Object in Japanese. This may be a case where a verb is intransitive, or it may be a case where the sentence has a adjective that is acting as a verb. In these constructions, typically the English Subject takes WA and the English Object takes GA.

春子はスペイン語が分かる
Haruko wa supeingo ga wakaru.
Haruko understands Spanish.
(As for Haruko, Spanish is understandable)

This isn't exhaustive-- it's more or less a list of stuff I wish someone told me at the start. There are other uses. Just some guidelines. Don't go nuts trying to memorize this post or anything, because as you learn Japanese you will gain kind of an intuitive understanding of when to use one over the other.
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Joyo Kanji: 1078 / 2136
Japanese Intermediate 2: 4435 / 12000
--
Spanish Intermediate 2: 2078 / 13200
--
Read a Book in Esperanto: 13 / 28
Language Log in Esperanto

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SGP
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:48 am

devilyoudont wrote:This isn't exhaustive-- it's more or less a list of stuff I wish someone told me at the start. There are other uses. Just some guidelines. Don't go nuts trying to memorize this post or anything, because as you learn Japanese you will gain kind of an intuitive understanding of when to use one over the other.


I wasn't thinking about memorizing information like this anyway. ;)
And yes, this intuitive understanding of WA/GA is what I hope to be there one day.
When reading a grammar description like the one you cited, the picture can become more complete, and so it did right now. ;)
Generally, I do not do what is called rote memorization. So there are some words even in Spanish (being one of the more advanced languages on my list), for example, that I possibly would be able to passively recall, but I am currently not able to actively use them. Nevertheless, there are other words that can be used as an alternative. Even if this isn't perceived as The Most Eloquent Way by some, there are others who do agree to this very idea.
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SGP
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Posts: 929
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Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:03 am

Comparing Swedish and Norwegian:

"Han har glömt sina glasögon.
Han har glemt brillene sine."

"Var har han sina glasögon då?
Hvor har han brillene sine da?"

"Hans klocka är sönder.
Klokka hans er ødelagt."

"Barnen kan inte hitta sina föräldrar.
Barna kan ikke finne foreldrene sine."
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SGP
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Re: Introduction & 13 languages (reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:10 am

Comparing Dutch and Afrikaans:

"Daar zijn de giraffen.
Daar is die kameelperde."

Simply loving this word. Camel horses.

"Waar zijn de beren?
Waar is die bere?"

"Waar zijn de tijgers en de krokodillen?
Waar is die tiere en die krokodille?"
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SGP
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Posts: 929
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:33 pm
Languages: DE (native), EN (C2), ES (B2), FR (B2); some more at various levels
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Re: Intro & 13 languages (mostly reading/writing) log & language exchange offer [PT IT RO FR ES SV NO DA SWA JP EO NL AF

Postby SGP » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:49 am

Updated my profile's language list once again.
Now it provides a greater level of detail about the progress that already has been made possible for someone.

At first, it started with "(reading/writing):". This was at the time of my very first post in this log, where I also mentioned that I do speak some of those languages, but definitely not all.
["Speak" as in: "being able to use them in a face to face conversation".]

Then it was changed to "-> Main <- focus on reading/writing: ".

Now it contains more complete information about both of R/W (reading and writing), and L/S (listening/speaking).

And of course, the passive reading ability differs from the active writing ability.
The same is valid, too, for listening and speaking.

I wouldn't want anybody to even think that there has been sort of a massive speaking boost in the last few days. It simply didn't happen, neither about R/W, nor about L/S.
But something else did happen, as it has been mentioned in the log once or twice.

In the end (of this post), I should also point out that those degrees (A1,B1,A2...) are meant as degrees (or levels) related to a certain ability only. It wasn't about taking exams at all. Also, these letters are connected to how I perceive it. There still are some gaps of knowledge even within the limits of those specific levels. For example, there are some words that I do not know yet, because I do not do rote memorization. But there are others, too, that aren't unknown, and those can serve as an alternative. Even if this (as I already said in a previous post) isn't considered the Most Eloquent Way Of Speech by some, there are others who do agree to this approach.

Now the list of languages is very compact, it contains many abbreviations. But it wouldn't have been possible to write them out, because the space is limited.

EDIT: After posting this, I did some additional minor tweaking. Now what exactly has been tweaked? The language list, once again. And why? Because both of R/W and L/S are pairs, they are about two different skills, so there was a need of a minor change for some additional clarity. For example, the listening/speaking description of Esperanto now is "L/S: pre-A1 - B1". This means that the listening/speaking ability is something from pre-A1 to B1.

Or more precisely: It can be up to B1 when it comes to listening. And as for speaking, it is pre-A1 at least. But even for speaking, it could be more than pre-A1 in some cases, too, for example when it is about a topic I am very familiar with, or when there is a lot of additional supportive context, and so on. The very same principle applies to the other skill (R/W) and the other languages.
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