Not all those who wander are lost

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sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
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Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Mon May 22, 2023 1:39 am

I just finished my cards for the day

333 cards in 1.16 hours
Learn:116
Review:121
Relearn 96
Correct answers on mature cards: 78.57% :shock:

Shaky, but moving forward.
I put on one of my favorite, relax after anki tunes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIHpZN7WJM and it suddenly dawned on me what learning Japanese is like with my brain. :D

It is like trying to fill a bucket with a leaking ladle. You pour in too fast and water splashes everywhere.
You pour too slowly or stop pouring and all of the water leaks out. :?

The character for memorize is : 覚
If you look closely you can see it shows the brain of a kanji learner exploding. Or perhaps the head is just on fire. One of my Japanese friends today just asked me what I had studied today. I think they didn't have any idea what I am trying to do. I got into anki and put the list up on chat, and a real Japanese person actually said that I was "cool." 8-)

I should probably quit Japanese now. It won't get better. :lol:
Last edited by sfuqua on Mon May 22, 2023 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
8 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

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Le Baron
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby Le Baron » Mon May 22, 2023 2:15 am

sfuqua wrote:and it suddenly dawned on me what learning Japanese is like with my brain. :D

It is like trying to fill a leaking ladle. You pour in too fast and water splashes everywhere.
You pour too slowly or stop pouring and all of the water leaks out. :?

Put me on that list old sport. My brain might as well be a colander at times.
3 x
Pedantry is properly the over-rating of any kind of knowledge we pretend to.
- Jonathan Swift

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sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:20 am

Well, I haven't been on the forum as much as usual, because I have been fighting it out with Japanese. I've changed my interval modifier so that cards come back for reviews sooner. This will eventually increase my number reviews, but apparently i need it. :o
I started out looking away from the kanji and writing each one, but that was slowing down my reviews. I've started doing my reviews by writing the kanji again. I think I need to do the writing to help the kanji head. So my kanji progress will slow down. :(

I have felt that my reading and listening subs2srs decks have not been really sticking well either. My error rate is not awful, but after 10 months of studying Japanese, I only know about 10 things I can say with confidence in Japanese. :lol:
Only 10. This sucks. The Japanese language learning community online is very big on delayed production, but this is ridiculous. I do not live in Japan and have no plans to move there, but I want to be able to spit out a sentence in Japanese ever now and then. I at least want to be able to read aloud with a little fluency, which I think has something to do with fluent listening also. So I have made a simple change to my subs2srs based decks. Now I am now playing the audio three times on each card, which seems to drive it into the head a little better. I then look away from the card and repeat the audio aloud from memory. This seems to be making my speaking less hopeless.

I have had a funny experience recently. On two different occasions, with two different native speakers of Chinese, the same thing happened. I spoke some simple Chinese in front of them and they both recoiled in shock. One said, "Wow, you're good." and the second said, "I have no idea that an American could sound that good." Both wanted to know where I picked up my Chinese accent. The answer is simple. I had a Chinese girlfriend 39 years ago. This means I repeated the same 10-15 Chinese phrases a lot, and apparently it also got my accent to be OK, at least for those phrases. This supports the old point that one of the best ways to learn a language is from close friend or girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse. :o

Unfortunately, I don't think this will help much with my Japanese. I have a couple really close Japanese friends who I interact with at least an hour a day, but most of the time we talk it is in English, since my spoken Japanese is pretty close to zero. I really don't have much to say.. :lol:

I started Japanese because of some random wandering on the web, which was started by an interest in learning more Chinese to show respect to my Daughter-in-Law's family. Chinese is a massively cool language, Of course so are all the other languages. I haven't figured out how to add Chinese into my study schedule. Studying kanji would make learning Chinese with traditional characters more straightforward, and there are resources for Chinese online too... ;)

Oh, I don't take the compliments on my tiny Chinese speaking ability seriously. People were being nice, The comments probably meant that I don't look like someone who would know how to speak Chinese. :lol:
11 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

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inu
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby inu » Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:03 pm

sfuqua wrote:I have felt that my reading and listening subs2srs decks have not been really sticking well either. My error rate is not awful, but after 10 months of studying Japanese, I only know about 10 things I can say with confidence in Japanese. :lol:
Only 10. This sucks. The Japanese language learning community online is very big on delayed production, but this is ridiculous. I do not live in Japan and have no plans to move there, but I want to be able to spit out a sentence in Japanese ever now and then. I at least want to be able to read aloud with a little fluency, which I think has something to do with fluent listening also.


Hey, I’m learning Japanese, too, and I can totally relate. After one year of learning Japanese in 2018 (not all-day-intensive study and without Anki, but nonetheless study) I tried to get the gist of a manga (with furigana). It was hopeless! I also had a French copy. Although I hadn’t started learning French at that time, I managed to get more than the gist when I tried to read the French version. With only a tiny little help from google translate here and there I could easily understand what was going on! I was so frustrated. Obviously, some Latin-learning in school 20 years ago and my knowledge of English has allowed me to sort of understand things in French, but studying Japanese for one year has made no difference in understanding the same things in Japanese. So, yeah, it’s ridiculous, completely frustrating and probably just the way it is with learning Japanese. ;) :)
4 x

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sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:56 am

Japanese is a beast of a language, which is why I think so many of the online community are interested in the idea of there being some magical acquisition process that saves them from studying everything. The process takes so long that people are desperate for any shortcut. One thing people use a lot in anki, and sometimes I think anki is usually very misused by the language learning community. :o

Everything about anki is usually set up to reduce the amount of time studying. In an ideal world, you learn a card, you review it at increasing intervals, and you never get it wrong. The trouble is that when one learns words through comprehensible input, it is rare to learn a word on first exposure. If you are learning a new word from reading a book, you don't worry that it is inefficient when you reread the same word a few pages later. You are glad for the reinforcement. I think anki can be a tool for reviewing a word, even over learning a word. :?

So I blew up my anki deck. I decided to ignore all the advice to avoid production and instead use anki to drive the same fact into my head three different ways. I took my old, standard L2-L1 deck and made three cards out of each card.
For the kanji deck it was only two cards per original card: Kanji-> keyword and keyword->Kanji. This means that I will go through the kanji at half the speed, but so far it seems to assure that the Kanji sticks better. :D
For sentence based decks (subs2srs based decks), I started doing three cards:
1. Kanji+kana+audio+image->meaning. This is usually fairly easy, because of all the clues to the meaning.
2.Meaning->Kanji+kana+audio(furigana if possible).
3.Kanji+kana (no furigana)->audio_meaning.
After this, I shuld be able to read the word in Japanes and translate the idea from English. :o
I know that the L1-L2 cards will become intolerable as soon as I have some Japanese vocabulary in my head. There are always many ways to do a translation. L2->L1 is easy, because you can always recognize whether you got it wrong or not, but L1->L2 requires you either to hit the exact translation that the card was looking for, or you have to guess whether you got it right or not. I intend to change the L1->L2 cards to audio->L2 cards as soon as the translation to target language cards get annoying. :o
7 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

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sfuqua
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Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Fri Jun 30, 2023 4:45 pm

Well, I'm pretty happy with my current study of Japanese. Instead of making each of my notes into one card, I am now splitting them into 3 cards. This slows things down, but reduces the strain of things. If the cards are easier, the number of new cards can go up, and the overall comprehension of the underlying notes is increased (as it should be with 3 times the number of cards). This is not actually much slower than doing fewer hard cards.

With Japanese, for each feature, an English speaker learner needs to connect several things together:
1. How the Japanese sounds.
2. What it means.
3 What furigana looks like.
4 What the Kanji looks like
5. How to write it.
6 How to enter it into a phone or computer.
The same thing is true for other languages too, but for others, especially languages with Latin based writing, many of these aspects are trivial.
Nothing connected to the Japanese writing system is trivial for a user of a Latin based system. It is beautiful, but it is horrible for a learner who does not come from another language that uses Chinese characters. It takes a lot of time. :o

Language learners are impatient, but I really think that for most mortals, taking one's time is the best approach.

For me, I am moving through about 10 new notes a day with Kanji. I have a half of the JouYou kanji to go. I'm studying how to write them as well as how to recognize them. Slow, steady progress. Another few months...

I'm also doing two different courses that use subs2srs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AvgqVGHP8A cards to teach Japanese grammar and vocabulary. The first, the Jlab grammar course (which also includes a bunch of vocab)https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/911122782. I am several hundred cards into this class, and I find that I need a lot of review and rereading to have points stick. One of the most important parts of Japanese is the use of particles which attach to words in a sentence and signal the role of the word in the sentence. It takes me several exposures before this starts to make sense. I have edited the course to that I have three cards for each note:
1. an audio, screenshot, and writing to meaning card
2. a writing and screenshot to audio and meaning card
3 an audio and screenshot to writing and meaning card
There is a lot of overlap between this deck and the next deck in vocabulary. There are many good cards in this deck. I'm doing 7 new notes from this deck a day.

The next deck is a big bunch of decks mushed together, from Jo Mako, that cover both grammar and vocabulary. https://sites.google.com/view/jo-mako/home?authuser=0. One of the interesting things about Jo Mako's is their concentration on using anki and morphman for efficient vocabulary learning. It helps with the old problem. The old question, "What vocabulary list do I have to learn to understand everything I want to understand in my L2?" There is a finite list of vocabulary items, but unfortunately, the list that I need to learn is different than the list that you need to learn unless we want to learn. Morphman helps one to take a corpus of text and identify what sentences you need to learn to understand the entire text at a given level of comprehension.
So you want to learn all of the sentences in a subs2srs deck for an anime you want to understand, take morphman and feed into it a set of anki decks you already know and feed into it the deck that you want to learn. It will pick the sentences that you need to learn to reach the level you want to reach. It has many options and there are many things you can do with it.
With Jo Makos decks, one attempts to get ready to start running morphman on decks. Jo Mako's decks include a pretty straightforward couple of grammar decks, which I like because the explanantions are very good. The other parts are a couple of vocabulary decks that were built with morphman. If you stick to a limited genre of language, say anime, you don't really need that big a vocabulary deck to get a lot of comprehension. On dark days, I think that there is no point in ever studying vocabulary except for learning lists that connect to a specific piece of language that you want to understand. The numbers are interesting. Jo seems to prove that by learning only around 650 words, one can have the same level of comprehension of anime that one has after completing either Genki 1 and 2 (a common beginning level college textbook) or Tango N5 and N4 (the lowest two levels of a common Japanese certification course). These courses are not focused on learning only Anime vocabulary, so this isn't surprising, but Jo Mako's idea that your Japanese course should be focused on exactly what it is that you are trying to learn sounds reasonable. If you want to learn how to understand anime, you should study anime vocabulary.

Part of my interest in Jo Mako's approach is a growing realization about what my goals are for Japanese.

First, what I don't want to do -- I don't want to move to Japan. Japan is a very admirable country, but I don't want to live there. I don't like most anime very much. I don't like most manga very much. Not surprising, I am not the demographic they are aimed at.

But I am passionately interested in the whole historical and science fiction genre of anime, manga and some video games. There is, for me at least, a huge body of interesting things to read and watch. My goal in Japanese is to get so that I can enjoy this body of work without having Japanese get in my way. It would be fun to visit Japan sometimes.

Of course there is nothing profound on what I like about Japan, but thinking about what I actually want to do with Japanese helped me to let go of some of the ways I was studying Japanese.
5 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Wed Jul 05, 2023 3:37 am

I learned something from the discussion on polyglots and fluency, I never intended to learn a lot of languages (I realize that my list is pretty unimpressive in this crowd). I learned Samoan because I wanted to enjoy living in Samoa. I learned Tagalog because I wanted to enjoy living in the Philippines. I learned Spanish because I live in a town called San Jose, and because I wanted to show respect to my many Spanish-speaking students. I learned French well enough to read it because it has a lot of cool literature. I fooled around with Irish, because I love Ireland.
I started Japanese because I was seduced by Japanese culture, art, and media. It is making me neglect my other languages pretty much completely. I am insane to mess with this beast of a language.

I am very impatient with progress, but I have figured out a couple of things.

I am much more satisfied with my study now that I am doing L1->L2 cards. The translation/production cards really make the Japanese sink in. I will stop these cards as soon as I get by the complete beginner stage. I am working on writing cards for kanji deck too. This really seems to help also.

I think that if you read the experts on Japanese on the web, it is easy to get sucked into their philosophy, which completely undervalues production for beginners. Production can help comprehension.

L1->L2 cards are problematic in any language, and Japanese in particular. One of the big characteristics of Japanese is that it omits pretty much anything that can be understood. This confuses Google Translate, which I often use for L1 side of cards. Sometimes cards have to be fixed because of very bad translations. With the translation and the L2 side of the card, I can usually figure out how to fix the card.

The subs2srs based courses I am using are focused on teaching grammar and vocabulary needed to understand anime. I have subs2srs decks available for several of my favorite anime movies and a few video games, about 68000 cards in total. This is more cards than I have life expectancy, but it shows that I should have plenty of resources to build some nice decks to learn from. One side effect of this approach is that I may never learn how to buy a beer, unless it happens in some anime or video game

I would also hope to get to the point where I can read books without a dictionary. This is a long way off of course, but Japan has wonderful literature of different genres. I have to figure out how to approach books... Vocabulary lists? It would probably be useful to learn the first 5000 most common words of Japanese from a few genre. That has never worked for me before, however. I had a huge breakthrough in Spanish when I finally started "just reading". Maybe I should do Japanese ASSiMiL. I need to figure this out....
Last edited by sfuqua on Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
5 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

User avatar
sfuqua
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1644
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:05 am
Location: san jose, california
Languages: Bad English: native
Samoan: speak, but rusty
Tagalog: imperfect, but use all the time
Spanish: read
French: read some
Japanese: beginner, obsessively studying
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9248
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby sfuqua » Wed Jul 05, 2023 4:10 am

I am proabably boing everyone with my repeated returns to the question of my motivation for learning Japanese, but I really don't understand it myself.

Why oh why am I not just enjoying Spanish and French literature? Or plugging along with Irish?
7 x
荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

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tastyonions
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby tastyonions » Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:39 am

sfuqua wrote:I am proabably boing everyone with my repeated returns to the question of my motivation for learning Japanese, but I really don't understand it myself.

Why oh why am I not just enjoying Spanish and French literature? Or plugging along with Irish?

Haha, sometimes I wonder why I didn't just stop with my first TL, French! I could have read sooo many great books and watched so many movies by now. It seems as soon as I get to a level where I can really enjoy native content in a language, a new one tempts me off in some other direction.

This has to stop at some point, right?

:shock:
5 x

galaxyrocker
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=757
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Re: Not all those who wander are lost

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Jul 05, 2023 12:02 pm

sfuqua wrote:I am proabably boing everyone with my repeated returns to the question of my motivation for learning Japanese, but I really don't understand it myself.

Why oh why am I not just enjoying Spanish and French literature? Or plugging along with Irish?



It's a weird thing isn't it? I should absolutely be focused on improving my Irish/French, or learning the ancient Celtic languages or their modern counterparts but I also feel myself drawn back towards Japanese regularly, even if I never act on that feeling. It's part of what's made me really consider international school teaching next year, even though it'll likely be a few years before I'm able to teach in Japan; I can move closer and visit/do language classes. It really is a weird phenomenon.
6 x


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