To Romania with Asterix and the rest

[StringerBell]

I've got 1200+ hours of Polish under my belt, and plurals still elude me!

[Meddysong]

I've just got through Unit 12 (of 20) of Colloquial Romanian. Things have been getting more challenging since 10, because the conversations are no longer parallel texts. I'm getting there, I'm pleased to say, at least on the second reading. The first time around tends to be me picking out the new grammar; I'd get distracted with the jumps to the glossary that the second reading requires.

I've also finished the first 10 units of Pimsleur Romanian. That's part of a much longer project; I first started that in January last year, as accompaniment for daily walks. You can measure how successful that was by the fact that I'm pretty much an expert on units 1 through 4, so many times have I done those particular units! The good news is that I seem to have developed a bit of an ear from it and it's excellent grounding for things that I've since come across in the book.

You know what isn't?



I just started this the other day. There's no grammar in it so it really would be a case of going in at the deep end for people who hadn't already done a course. Fortunately, I'm halfway through one and so can analyse what's happening in the sentences.

I wasn't prepared for this in unit 2, though:



Hang on. I had to check the title again:



Yep, I wasn't wrong. It's for English-speakers learning Romanian. So ...

why is there IPA of the English vocab?!?!

I can ignore the typos in the book. I've written one myself and know they're inevitable no matter how diligent you are. But things like this are unacceptable:



I'm ignoring the typo on şase. My mind is telling me that astaaceasta is all sorts of wrong and should be two words but there it is twice. I understand that mâine could be correct but there's no mention of tomorrow in the translation, so I think it's a case of typing one word when intending another and then messing up the fix. I shouldn't have to worry about this in unit 3 of a reader for beginners but the fact that there is so much else wrong with that page is making me think I may be right to.

The issue of a person not knowing how to use find and replace properly seems to have made itself visible later on too:





But there's something even worse. Clare asked me what the audio was like. "What audio?" She felt that there should be accompanying audio. She's used the Russian version and that had it. "I haven't seen any mention of it", I replied. That was true. I've just leafed through the book again. Every page bar the 29 units. The covers; inside the covers; all of it. (It didn't take long!) No mention whatsoever of audio.

It exists though and is free to download! http://lppbooks.com/Romanian/FirstRoman ... index.html

This might be the worst language book I've ever seen.

[Meddysong]

I'm still doing OK-ish. I haven't abandoned the project! Although I'm frustrated at not having started Asterix yet, I'm glad I haven't really; today's unit in Colloquial introduced the adjective article, cel. Now I know what that was doing there when Obelix was introduced! There are still lots of features of Romanian which would escape me if I tried to passively read so I need to finish Colloquial first.

I definitely need a dictionary. The only one I can find is this one: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/English-Roma ... ry+english

BUT: It doesn't look like it indicates what the plurals are. That's half of the reason why I need one! I suppose it's written for Romanian learners of English rather than the other way around and so doesn't need to spell them out.

Does anybody have any recommendations?

[Serpent]

Why not just use wiktionary?
I can say that the hippocrene one doesn't list the plurals.

[Meddysong]

Why not just use wiktionary?

Yes, I suppose I could. I read lying down though (old back injury which I fixed after 19 years by slipping over on some ice in Lapland and seemingly pulling something back into place, although I seem psychologically unable to read normally now) so would like to avoid needing a computer.

That said ... I have my silly vocab book which doesn't list the plurals. Maybe I could use wiktionary to get them and add them. That might save it from getting thrown into the bin!

[Meddysong]

Oh, hi. It's been a while!

The good news is that I've finished Colloquial Romanian and so am ready to start reading Asterix. Before I even get to the story itself I have some questions and observations.

The front page bears the heading O aventură a lui Asterix eroul galilor. I know that this means "An adventure of Asterix, the hero of the Gauls."

I understand that 'a lui' is acting like a genitive. Where I've seen 'lui' used in other texts, it's not preceded by 'a'. I know from Colloquial Romanian that there is such a thing as a possessive article and I'm guessing this is it. However, it's 'a' and not what I would've expected ('al'). Is it 'a' because the article agrees with the subject ('o aventură') rather than the indirect object?

What's the reasoning behind using it here? When I've seen 'lui' used with masculine names, there was no article. My own notes show "used with possessive adjectives when they are not followed by a noun". Does 'Asterix' not count as a noun?

What about the feminine form? That involves changing the noun to show the case, doesn't it? If we were talking about Asterixă, then we'd say O aventură Asterixei eroina galilor, wouldn't we? (No possessive article because there isn't a possessive adjective, right?)

If I've managed to understand that front page correctly, I'm confused about the second page. It has the heading Aventurile lui Asterix. No possessive article this time. Is that because it's only used if the noun is indefinite?

I'm trying to work out whether the fact that the two one-line headings are giving me so many questions is a worrying sign for the rest of the book!

[Meddysong]

Radioclare's working from home today so, of course, I got up automatically when the alarm would normally have gone off and had some spare time. Why not start reading Asterix?!

Here are some observations:

- a fost cucerita de romani

It looks as though just as you can use the past participle of [some] verbs as adjectives in other languages, so you can in Romanian. This seems to be a passive construction, with Romanian introducing the agen't with 'de'.

- un sat populat de gali nesupuși

As above. A village populated by 'unsubdueable' Gauls. It seems as though 'ne' can serve as a prefix for creating opposites.

- Și viața legionarilor din castele

Just the sort of sentence I love! The words are all passively recognisable so I can concentrate on the grammar. "And the life of the legionaries from the castle".

- nu e deloc ușoara

This one isn't so good. My dictionary doesn't contain this adjective but there is a verb 'a ușura' which has several meanings. In context, I think this sentence is probably "isn't easy at all".

- Asterix este eroul acestor aventuri

Another great sentence for me as a learner! "Asterix is the hero of these adventures." I don't have a feeling when to use 'este' and when 'e' yet.

- Micului războinic, iștet și năstrușnic, îi sunt încredințate fără ezitare toate mișiunile primejdioase

This sentence required frequent trips to the dictionary because of the vocabulary but it's a great one for me to break down. It reinforces that if the adjective precedes the noun, it takes the case endings. There is, by English standards, an unusual word order, with the indirect object at the head of the sentence and a pronoun reinforcing it later:

"To the little warrior, smart and amazing, to him are entrusted without hesitation the dangerous missions"

- Obelix e cel mai buna prieten al lui Asterix

I'm not sure why the article 'cel' is used. My understanding when I was reading is that this is used when there isn't a noun, which there clearly is in this case. I'm going to hazard a guess that it's attributable to the fact that this is a superlative and that's simply how it's formulated.

As with my previous post, I don't understand why it's 'al lui' and not just 'lui', as I've seen elsewhere. My notes say that the possessive article is used when there isn't a following noun, but Asterix is one, so I don't know. In my previous post, I speculated that the reason that the article was in the feminine before (o aventură a lui Asterix) was because it agreed with the subject. Since the subject this time is the masculine 'prieten', then I'm sticking to this theory.

- mistreți

A crucial word to know if you're reading Asterix: it's wild boar! It seems to me that it's actually the word for a wood or the adjective wild and originally part of a compound, porc mistreț: wild pig, wood pig.

- Obelix e gata oricănd

Obelix is ready at any time. Whilst looking that up, I noticed that ori- seems to be a prefix which can be added to care etc to create whoever, whatever etc.

- pentru a-l urma pe Asterix

I'm a bit lost with this. I think from context it's "to follow in the footsteps of Asterix" but I don't understand what the 'a-l' bit is nor why 'pe' is used rather than 'lui' or changing the case.

- Doar să fie sigur că e rost de ceva mistreți

This is complicated but I'm most of the way there. It seems to be something like "only if he can be sure of some boar". I'm not certain of the construction, what 'doar' means in this particular sentence (the dictionary indicates 'only', 'but', 'just' but also 'perhaps', 'probably'). Given the subjunctive, maybe I should interpret it as "he can probably be certain of getting some boar". I don't understand 'rost' there. I'm influenced by English into thinking 'roast' but "roast of something boar" doesn't seem right.

- Opiniile asupra talentului său sunt împărtite: el se socotește genial, în vreme ce toți ceilalți consideră că ar fi mai bine să se lase păgubas

A heck of a sentence. I love seeing 'opiniile' and 'talentului' and realising immediately which grammar features are packed in. 'Sometimes the others consider that it would've been better' is a great sentence, though I don't think I'll meet 'ceilalți' enough to learn it. I'm not sure what the ending is. 'păgubas' is a loser, a victim. I know what the context is: 'it would've been better if he got X' but I can't work out how it makes sense to use 'păgubas'. I would be expect an adjective.

- e șeful tribului

Another really reassuring sentence. I understood it immediately.

[Iversen]

- nu e deloc ușoara
ușoară is the feminine form of ușor (easy).

- Asterix este eroul acestor aventuri

Another great sentence for me as a learner! "Asterix is the hero of these adventures." I don't have a feeling when to use 'este' and when 'e' yet.

In this case the following word starts with an e-, which should be reason enough to use the long form. Elsewhere it is mostly a matter of emphasizing the copula or not.

- Obelix e cel mai buna prieten al lui Asterix

I'm not sure why the article 'cel' is used. My understanding when I was reading is that this is used when there isn't a noun

The easiest way to flex your mind around this phenomenon is to think of the demonstrative "cel" as some kind of reinforced and prepositioned article, used because you can't put an article on "mai". I'm more puzzled by the final -a on "buna".

As with my previous post, I don't understand why it's 'al lui' and not just 'lui', as I've seen elsewhere. My notes say that the possessive article is used when there isn't a following noun, but Asterix is one, so I don't know.

The a-thing functions as some kind of place holder to which you can attach a pronoun and (sometimes) a substantive. I see it as some kind of appositional construction, partly because the a-thing and its attachments also can occur in other positions than just after a noun. And my notes say that it is quite normal to have a substantive at the end. I found this example from dw.com on the internet:
"au un scor mai bun în ceea ce privește aparentele etaloane ale lui Trump,"
Here "ale" refers to "aparentele", and the rule is that the previous noun clause decides the number and gender of the a-thing - but way back in the HTLAL days I did a study of the construction which showed that even the Romanians can commit errors of concord when using it.

- pentru a-l urma pe Asterix

I'm a bit lost with this. I think from context it's "to follow in the footsteps of Asterix" but I don't understand what the 'a-l' bit is nor why 'pe' is used rather than 'lui' or changing the case.

The preposition "pe" is used with objects which refer to humans (contrary to Spanish, where "a" is used with nonhuman objects). "a" is the infinitive marker ... and well, the Romanians just like to use weak pronouns with no other obvious function than to duplicate some other part of the sentence.

- Doar să fie sigur că e rost de ceva mistreți

This is complicated but I'm most of the way there. It seems to be something like "only if he can be sure of some boar". I'm not certain of the construction, what 'doar' means in this particular sentence (the dictionary indicates 'only', 'but', 'just' but also 'perhaps', 'probably').

The meaning is "only in order to ..."

- Opiniile asupra talentului său sunt împărtite: el se socotește genial, în vreme ce toți ceilalți consideră că ar fi mai bine să se lase păgubas

A heck of a sentence. I love seeing 'opiniile' and 'talentului' and realising immediately which grammar features are packed in. 'Sometimes the others consider that it would've been better' is a great sentence, though I don't think I'll meet 'ceilalți' enough to learn it. I'm not sure what the ending is. 'păgubas' is a loser, a victim. I know what the context is: 'it would've been better if he got X' but I can't work out how it makes sense to use 'păgubas'. I would be expect an adjective.

My understanding of this sentence goes something like: "while (literally: in time that) all the others think that it would be better (for him) to let himself (be) a loser". And that's nonsense. In other words: I'm not worried about the "păgubas", but more about the general meaning. It is clear that everybody apart from the bard himself (and a few misguided teensters from Lutetia) see him as a loser, but it's actually the other village dwellers who are the victims of his dreadful singing.

EDIT: maybe the best interpretation is that the other inhabitants of the village would love to see the bard give up his vocal pursuits (ie. accept defeat by Mother Nature, which by definition would make him a loser)

[Meddysong]

Thank you for taking the time to help me out, Iversen!

- Obelix e cel mai buna prieten al lui Asterix I'm not sure why the article 'cel' is used. My understanding when I was reading is that this is used when there isn't a noun

The easiest way to flex your mind around this phenomenon is to think of the demonstrative "cel" as some kind of reinforced and prepositioned article, used because you can't put an article on "mai". I'm more puzzled by the final -a on "buna".

That's called 'idiot typed an a which wasn't there in the text'. In the book it is, of course, 'bun'.

I've just spent bit of rewarding time reading some more of it. I'm pleasantly surprised at how little I've needed to use the dictionary. I suppose, though, that a large part of that is attributable to knowing this book very well and so being better prepared to passively understand what I'm reading. Here are today's interesting excerpts:

- În cortul centurionului Caius Bonus

A great sentence for me as a learner. It's immediately obvious to me because the words are so identifiable, so it's pure absorption of the grammar: 'in the court of the centurion/in the centurion's court'. Great!

- Patrula s'a întors

I'd already met 'a întoarce' on the previous page, so this wasn't a new word. It's a nice reminder how a reflexive past form looks and that past participles often ends with an s. I have some reinforcement of this a few frames later when Obelix asks a returning Asterix 'Te-ai întors, Asterix?'

- Pe toți zeii!

I don't know what it is but I loved seeing that 'pe' is used here. I think that part of why is because you'd never work it out yourself. 'By' in English is 'par' in French; the esperantists have to use 'je'. Now I know what it is in Romanian, reinforced a few frames later by 'Pe Iuppiter!'

- Ce-ați pățit?

I'm still having to get used to Romanian treating ă, â, ț etc as individual letters and so am sometimes under the impression that the word isn't in the dictionary when it is really, as was the case here. I'm not sure what there's a hyphen there but I'll keep an eye out for more of them.

- Erau unul singur

I think this is the first instance of the imperfect. It's nice to see it and recognise it! I've noticed that there's a definite article on 'un' there.

- Vii să mâncăm mistrețul?

I love this. It's such a typical sentence for those two! And it's a memorable way for me to see the construction in action: Are you coming to eat boar? [Are you coming that we eat boar?]

- Mai am de livrat două menhire...

I'm helped out a great bit by knowing the story, otherwise this would've been a strange sentence. As it is, it's a great one. Immediately it tells me that Romanian has a 'have to' construction for obligation.

I thought there was something unusual with the use of a past participle rather than the infinitive, which is what I would've assumed. A bit of reading up has introduced me to the mood called the supine, which takes the form 'verb + preposition + past participle'. I haven't read what this particular mood is supposed to convey so am taking it now as a simple fact that if you're using a 'verb + preposition + verb' construction, that second verb happens to be a past participle.

I've enjoyed reading this today. It's only two pages but was slow because I was writing things down. I think I'll do some more tomorrow.

[Meddysong]

I did another four pages earlier today. Here's what caught my eye:

- hai să-i vedem pe druid

I remember something similar in Croatian for "come on" or "let's go"! I note that the object is present as a pronoun even though it still features in the sentence. Clearly it's reinforcing rather than replacing. There's that 'pe' again! We later see 'haideți cu mine' too.
- a venit zuia să-mi dai rația de poțiune

Poor Obelix. He still has to go without! Catching my eye here is a past form, the relative being 'să', to which the indirect object pronoun is attached with a hyphen, and the fact that something can be an "x of y".

- origenea ei se pierde în negura vremurilor

A lovely sentence which I can passively understand, allowing me to concentrate on that plural genitive at the end

- din gura de druid la ureche de druid

I nice example of 'from ... to'. I still struggle to get used to 'la' being a preposition. It's too easy for me to read it as a definite article.

- tot ĉe-ți pot spune e că înautru se pune vâsc și homar ... homarul nu e necesar, dar dă gust bun!

Great! I remember in French forcing myself to learn 'tout ce que'. It looks as though Romanian is similar. Knowing this book helped because I already knew the context and that the unknown nouns would be 'mistletoe' and 'lobster'. I was really pleased to understand the grammar of this sentence without a problem.

- îmi dai și mie?

Poor Obelix, trying again! This one has 'to me' using two different pronouns and 'și' as 'also, too'.

- ar fi periculos să mai bei

Points to me for working out that this is the conditional!

- îmi trebuie un voluntar să-i spioneze pe gali

A-ha. 'trebuie' only takes third-person forms, so you make it apply indirectly to a first or second person if you need to express 'I need' etc.

- nu mă duc la gali

Oh yes, I remember reading that 'to go' is a reflexive verb.

- Caesar îti va fi recunoscător dacă te duci la gali

Woohoo, a future form!

- Romanii stau cuminți de prea multă vreme

The Romans have been quiet for too much time. I note the 'de' leading into the time phrase.

- fiți vigilenți și nu uitați să vă luați poțiunea de la druid

Great, an irregular imperative which is crucial to know! I'm not sure what that 'la' is doing before 'druid'. Maybe it will become clear with more examples later.

- Șefule!

Oh, a vocative! They use the definite article too! Mind you ... I've heard 'domnul' and 'doamna' on Pimsleur so I deduce ... yes, the vocative requires the use of a definite article too.

- o să intonez un cântec pentru a insufla curaj războincilor

Furure tense! I've got that plural dative at the end but the real novelty here is seeing that the infinitive after 'pentru' keeps its 'a'.

Anyway, that was fun. Maybe I'll do some more tomorrow