Spoon's Space for Spanish, 'speranto and... Italian [2015]

[Chmury]

¡En absoluto! Si tienes algo por compartir debes hacer exactamente eso. Y de todos modos, siempre es buena práctica intentar expresarte lo bien que puedas y decir exactamente lo que quieres decir en vez de simplificarlo todo.

Primero que nada, muchas gracias por considerar que tenga un nivel más alto que el que puse. Bueno, no he hecho ningún examen o algo por el estilo, pero diría que espero mucho de mí mismo y que tengo altos estándares, así que es por eso que prefiero menospreciar que sobrevalorar mis habilidades. Además hace 3 años lo dominé mucho mejor y por entonces habría dicho que tenía un nivel de C1. Por lo tanto una vez que me sienta que haya vuelto a recobrar la facilidad con la que usaba el idioma, lo cambiaré. Pero en cualquier caso, todas esas maneras distintas de evaluar lo bien que se domine este idioma o eso, sólo son pautas que describen un espectro amplio de habilidades fluidas, así que no las doy tanta importancia. Lo que sí me importa mucho es las conversaciones que tengo con nativos y que fluyan sin tropiezos. Pero bueno, ahora me estoy desviando del tema..

¿Así que estudiaste el castellano en la universidad? ¿Cuál era tu título?

[Spoonary]

De nada, no lo diría si no fuera lo que pensaba de verdad.

Oh cómo te entiendo, ya que yo también suelo menospreciar mis habilidades. Es por eso que he optado por los términos ‘beginner’, ‘intermediate’ y ‘advanced’ para juzgar mi propio nivel en los idiomas que estudio. Aunque mi familia me suele aconsejar que piense lo contrario, yo no veo nada negativo en concentrarte en las áreas en las que puedes mejorar, en vez de las que ya dominas bien.

De todos modos, ahora me ha surgido la curiosidad, y espero que no te moleste que te pregunte… ¿Cómo llegaste al nivel C1 y qué ha pasado en los últimos 3 años que te ha hecho perder algo de la habilidad que tenías en español?

Estoy de acuerdo contigo, también, cuando dices que es difícil especificar el nivel que tienes en un idioma, ya que esa ‘etiqueta’ debe englobar un gran abanico de habilidades que de un día a otro pueden cambiar.

¿Mi título? Pues la licenciatura que hice se llamaba ‘BA Spanish Studies’ y consistía en hacer un poco de todo: lingüística y literatura españolas, lingüística inglesa, la historia de los países hispanohablantes… ¡Hasta estudiamos la historia del arte español!
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Update time!
It has been a while since I did a real update on this log, so here goes.

Other than the daily selection of target language (video game-related) entertainment I indulge in on Youtube, the language learning activity I have devoted most of my time to lately has been reading.

The last time I mentioned reading, I said I was working through Splendore, but I haven't touched that book for a couple of weeks now and I am still very near the beginning. Now, that's not because I dislike it or anything. In fact, I really like it so far. It's just that I want to dedicate long periods of time to intensively reading the book, and I haven't been able to do that just lately, due to interruptions from family or other things I have had to do, so I put the book aside for now and decided to pick it up again when I have finished reading El tiempo entre costuras.

Given that our book club here in the Spanish section of the forum hasn't exactly gone to plan, with everyone reading at their own pace and hardly anyone discussing the weekly chapters any more, I resolved to read the book at my own pace too. I would like to finish this 600+ page mammoth before the end of the year, so I am trying to read several chapters each time I feel like picking it up. I'm currently on chapter 31/69 with 18 hours remaining (according to my kindle). I don't dislike the book, but I'm pretty sure it will be getting a 3 star review on Goodreads because, although there's nothing particularly wrong with the it, it's just not really my thing. There is a lot of historical "information"* here which I read and understand on a linguistic level but basically just let wash over me.

*I can't be sure if it's factual or not because I know next to nothing about Franco's Spain, despite having studied it at length at university. History is just not my thing, yo!

As anyone who has been following my Goodreads activity will know, I have also recently read a couple of TL short stories. They appeared on my kindle after my having a browse in the free foreign ebooks area of Amazon UK and I still have a good handful of Italian ones to have a go at. None of those I have read so far were anything special, though, so I won't waste time here writing about them.

Another book I have started reading in Spanish is Historia de los egipcios, a history book I bought from a second hand bookshop in Spain for a bargain 2 euros. I'm reading it slowly as I'm also currently taking part in Ancient Egypt: A history in six objects, a MOOC about a topic I have always been curious about. I'm only 2 weeks in but so far I am really enjoying it. Everything is covered thoroughly, with lots of information and suggested extra reading, while still being very accessible for someone who has as much trouble remembering historical facts as me.

[Chmury]

Buena idea usar los términos 'principiante', 'intermedio' y 'adelantado' en vez de algo más concreto. Tal vez debería hacer lo mismo.

No, no me molesta en absoluto. Bueno, logré ese nivel ya que simplemente ponía un montón de tiempo y energía en mejorar a lo largo de 3 años más o menos, y dado que estudiar castellano llegó a ser como una obsesión para mí y también una parte de mi vida fundamental, no me resultaba difícil llegar a ese nivel, ya que me encantaba lo que hacía. Pero me gustaría dejar claro algo rápidamente. Cuando digo que no era difícil, no estoy diciendo que no me costaba muchísimo tiempo y potencia cerebral para mejorar poco a poco, era así. Pero lo que quiero decir, y he dicho esto muchas veces a mucha gente cuando hablo con amigos por ejemplo y me dicen que algo es demasiado difícil; Cuando te gusta hacer algo, sea lo que sea, el proceso de mejorar ya no trata de dificultad, sino sólo de tiempo. Y tiempo no es difícil, sólo es una parte de la vida en que no tenemos que preocuparnos ya que corre y funciona sin ninguna ayuda de nuestro parte. Así que lo único que tenemos que hacer para mejorar en esa cosa que nos da tanto placer y disfrute, es degustar y disfrutar de lo que hacemos y seguir haciéndolo. ¿Me entiendes? Algo es difícil hacer cuando no te gusta lo que estás haciendo, sin embargo cuando te encanta lo que estás haciendo, el subjuntivo por ejemplo, deja de ser un obstáculo aburrido y molesto que te para en seco, y se convierte en una fuente de interés y fascinación. Así que dado que disfrutaba muchísimo de estudiar y mejorar mi castellano, siempre lo hacía.

¿Qué pasó durante aquellos tres años en que fui perdiendo la soltura con que una vez lo dominaba? Pues, debido a algo que pasó, perdí esa cosa que me dio motivación inagotable. Pero hoy en día me parece que voy poquito a poco (un temazo de la hostia por cierto) recobrándolo y acostumbrándome a las circunstancias nuevas. Y por eso, estoy muy agradecido.

¡Qué licenciatura! Suena genial. Hice también unas cuantas asignaturas de lingüística y literatura cuando estudiaba. Eran las que más me gustaron y más me interesaron. ¿Y tú? ¿Cuáles eran las asignaturas que más te gustaron? ¿Estudiaste en Inglaterra no? Es probable que vaya a volver a la universidad para hacer una maestría o PhD o algo así algún día, y pienso que sería en lingüística o algo que tiene que ver con la cultura y lengua española.

Y si no lo has oído antes, una de mis canciones predilectas (a la que me referí arriba) de una de la bandas españolas que más me encanta:

[Spoonary]

Te entiendo perfectamente. Cuando uno realmente disfruta de lo que hace, el tiempo y empeño que esto requiere se reducen a nada, ya que no le parece una obligación seguir, sino que le resulta un placer.

Fuera lo que fuese la razón por la que ibas perdiendo la pasión por el castellano, me alegra de verdad oír que te la vayas recuperando, y que estés aquí para compartir esa experiencia con nosotros.

Sí, a mí las asignaturas que más me gustaron fueron las de lingüística, tanto del inglés como del castellano. Estudié en la ciudad en la que nací y donde llevo viviendo casi la vida entera. Deberías. Yo también me gustaría hacer algo así. He pensado, de hecho, en ir a la universidad de Barcelona y hacer un máster en traducción audiovisual, pero eso me costaría unos 4 mil euros anuales que no tengo.

No digo que sea mala la canción, pero simplemente no es del género de música que suele gustarme. Mi género favorito sería el punk, aunque me gusta un poco de todo, la verdad. La banda española que más me gusta a mí es Gatillazo. Aquí te dejo una de sus canciones menos ofensivas/políticas, Perjudicados.

[Spoonary]

(Corrected by garyb here and nico-italy on Lang-8)
Rieccomi! Ho deciso di scrivere questa volta in Italiano poiché semplicemente non ci scrivo mai. Perciò, mi dispiace ma adesso dovete sopportare un testo pieno di errori e frasi che si assomigliano un po’ troppo allo spagnolo. -_-

Comunque, in questi giorni non è che io abbia fatto molto di interessante, ma qualche cosa c’è stata, quindi accomodatevi perché questo potrebbe durare.

Il sabato sera sono andata con mia cugina* in municipio per vedere il nostro cabarettista preferito di tutti i tempi, Alan Carr. Lo avevamo gia visto due volte in durante il suo tour precedente e tutte e due erano spettacolari quindi non potevamo perderci l’opportunità di rivederlo quest’anno, nella nostra città addirittura.

Lo spettacolo era eccellente, e ovviamente faceva tanto ridere. Ridevamo tanto che persino mi faceva male la testa il giorno dopo per aver riso troppo nelle due ore che è durato. Secondo me quest’uomo è un genio. A volte non riesco a capire come ha trovato connessioni tra due oggetti/persone ma quando le segnala lui, le connessioni sembrano ovvie e non posso far altro che ridere come una pazza.

Insomma, nonostante ci siano molti cabarettisti britannici molto bravi, Alan Carr è e sempre sarà il mio preferito e sono sicura che mi farà fare male la testa per molti anni ancora.

*Qui potevo dire ‘siamo andate con mia cugina?’ se mi riferivo soltanto a mia cugina ed io?
(According to nico-italy on Lang-8: ""io e mia cugina siamo andate" is better." and
"you can say: "siamo andate con mia cugina" only if with you there were other people", so that clears that up.)

Ok, I'm going to wimp out and go back to English now for the general update.

I am still slogging through El tiempo entre costuras, which is nearing its end (I am currently at 78%, with 8 hours and 8 minutes to go). There have been a few twists and turns in the story which I have appreciated immensely but at this point, I kind of just want it to end. Perhaps I should have put the book down for good earlier, but I have come too far now to give up. At the pace I'm going, I hope to finish it this week.

After that, as I said before, I will definitely be returning to Splendore and focussing on that for as long as it takes to work through. I am quite looking forward to going back to Mazzantini because I am feeling the need for some Italian in my life. On that note, I found a grammar workbook-type-handout-thing which I got from one of the second year Italian classes I sat in on during my final year at uni and I have started working through it. It contains a brief explanation of several grammar points, with example sentences, then a translation exercise in order to practise the particular grammar point you just read about. So far I have done the sections about imperatives, negatives and prepositions and half of the one about ci and ne. There is also a part about comparatives, a couple about the subjunctive, one about 'infinitive constructions' and a section on indirect speech, followed by a past exam paper. I am finding it interesting and really useful, and I'm considering posting my translated sentences on Lang-8 to get some corrections, or I might even see if I can pop in to the university and see the lecturer who gave me the workbook, to get some actual feedback in person.

In personal news, I got to the next (and hopefully final) stage interview for that job I was talking about a week or so ago. It will take place on Tuesday 24th November and it is extremely important that I present the best of me for the 2 hours I will be there so some of this week will be devoted to preparation for that. Tuesday 24th could be the start of the rest of my life, but no pressure, eh?

[garyb]

"siamo andate con mia cugina?" to me means that several of you went with your cousin - if it's just the two of you I'd think "sono andata con mia cugina" or "io e mia cugina siamo andate".

The masculine direct object pronoun is "lo", so "lo abbiamo già visto" or "l'abbiamo già visto", and "rivederlo". I get confused with this in Spanish though - am I right in thinking that you say "ver a mi amigo" but "verlo" rather than "verle"? That messes with my head a bit... I don't feel confident enough to comment on anything else, so hopefully a kind Italian will come along. There are a few things I'm unsure about myself: I think that "perderci l’opportunità" and "perdere l’opportunità" are both correct and equivalent, but I'm really not sure!

Anyway, best of luck for the interview! Will it be in Spanish or English?

[Spoonary]

Thanks for the corrections/suggestions, Gary. With regards to the "siamo andate con mia cugina" thing, it sounds the same to me as it does to you - that there were several of us going with my cousin, which was not the case here. However, the use of the plural in this situation is something I have heard frequently in Spanish. I was just curious as to whether it was also used that way in Italian.

The masculine direct object pronoun is "lo", so "lo abbiamo già visto" or "l'abbiamo già visto", and "rivederlo". I get confused with this in Spanish though - am I right in thinking that you say "ver a mi amigo" but "verlo" rather than "verle"? That messes with my head a bit...

Ah yeah, I have used the indirect pronoun above, silly me. You have touched on something a bit problematic in Spanish, there, and I am not sure how to explain it. The thing is, although 'lo' is the direct object pronoun and 'le' is the indirect, you will hear either one of them used in the phrase you proposed, because of leísmo and loísmo. I would lean towards 'verle', as we're talking about a person.

Note: I have just checked what the Real Academia Española have to say about this issue. They say that if you are talking about a direct object (or complemento directo), you should use 'lo', as in "¿Has visto a Juan? Sí, lo vi ayer." However, due to the widespread use of 'le' in parts of Spain, it is now accepted when talking about a masculine singular direct object.

Anyway, best of luck for the interview! Will it be in Spanish or English?

Thank you! The interview will be in English, but I have been told that I will be on site for 2 hours so I'm not discarding the possibility of there being something unexpected involved. We'll see.

[Elenia]

Good luck for the interview!

[garyb]

With regards to the "siamo andate con mia cugina" thing, it sounds the same to me as it does to you - that there were several of us going with my cousin, which was not the case here. However, the use of the plural in this situation is something I have heard frequently in Spanish. I was just curious as to whether it was also used that way in Italian.

Okay, I hadn't realised that happened in Spanish! It reminds me a bit of the "doubling" of indirect objects like "le he dado a tu hermano" which is also kinda alien to me. The lo/le thing is also strange: on one hand I'm more inclined to say "verlo" because I'm used to French and Italian, but on the other hand I want to say "verle" to match the "a". Thanks for the clarification on that, good to know I'm right to be unsure! Anyway all these things are confusing for me but they're probably the typical things that one worries about more than necessary as a beginner and I'll get a better sense of them as I learn more. Since I've mostly been focusing on listening rather than speaking, I've probably heard these things lots of times but not really paid attention because I've not needed to to understand.

I was chatting with an Italian contact yesterday and I asked about "perdere l'occasione" versus "perdersi l'occasione"; she told me that both are correct but the first (non-reflexive) one sounds better. Of course, that's a bit subjective and if you ask different Italians the same question you'll often get different answers.

Thank you! The interview will be in English, but I have been told that I will be on site for 2 hours so I'm not discarding the possibility of there being something unexpected involved. We'll see.

Cool, that takes off a bit of the pressure I suppose. Even if something comes up, it'll be easier than doing the whole thing in Spanish...

[Spoonary]

I was chatting with an Italian contact yesterday and I asked about "perdere l'occasione" versus "perdersi l'occasione"; she told me that both are correct but the first (non-reflexive) one sounds better. Of course, that's a bit subjective and if you ask different Italians the same question you'll often get different answers.

Oh, ok. Thanks a lot for following up on that and getting back to me. I guess it's not really something I need to worry about much but it's good to keep in mind that the reflexive ending isn't necessary.

Good luck for the interview!

Thank you, Elenia. I need all the luck I can get!

Note: Someone corrected the above Italian entry on Lang-8 so I have edited in the corrections here.