Dabbling Experiment B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901

[Xmmm]

Introduction:

We say that more time devoted to study will lead to better results, yet we intuitively know that 18 hours a day of language study will probably not lead to better results than 6 hours a day, and that 6 hours a day is probably only a marginal improvement over 2 hours a day. But where is the cut-off point, where the marginal utility of additional studies reaches the point of not bothering with? A new language is a strange, alien thing. The mind will tend to resist learning it. What if the doors of perception close much earlier than we think? What if the best study time is the first 20 minutes each day, and after that we are mostly spinning our wheels?

The estimated time to reach the A2 level in a previously unknown category IV language is 300 hours. What if this level could be reached in only 100 hours (300 days at 20 minutes a day)? If achievable, people would no longer have to choose 'safe' languages to protect their massive investment of time. They would be free to say "maybe I'll spend 20 minutes a day on Tzotzil and see how it goes."

Other board members have reported success at 20 minutes a day, but their efforts tend to be dismissed as the work of people with exceptional linguistic talent. To evaluate this theory, we need a subject who is linguistically incompetent. Fortunately, we were able to find one.

Materials:

Courses: Buntús Cainte and Progress in Irish, Conversational Georgian Made Easy and Beginner's Georgian
Flashcards: Quizlet Long-Term Learning
Conversation: Italki

Procedure:

The subject will attempt to learn Irish and Georgian to the A2 level by 1 September 2019. At 20 minutes a day, this will be roughly 100 hours. Since he is currently A0 in both languages, this should be impossible (unless the doors of perception, etc. theory is correct).

1. Work though basic course material.
2. Save vocabulary to Quizlet Long Term Learnng
3. When roughly 2000 words have been learned, commence Italki sessions. Since Italki sessions have to be scheduled for 30 minutes, subject will have to "take a day off" after such sessions.
4. Test Irish on Dialang around about 1 September 2019. The test procedure for Georgian hasn't been determined yet. If worst comes to worst and no test can be found, it will be based on self-assessment using the Irish results as a guide.


Current Knowledge of Irish:

irish20181018.png

Current Knowledge of Georgian:

georgian20181018.png

[reineke]

Dialang or it didn't happen.

[rdearman]

Slightly confused about the comment about taking a day off because you did 30 minutes of (for example) Irish. You mean take a day off from language Irish, but not Georgian? Or perhaps you only do 10 minutes of Irish the following day? I'm also assuming you mean 20 minutes per language, totally 40 minutes?

[smallwhite]

Thanks for the experiment.

How confident are you that you will complete the experiment?

How confident are you that you will reach A2 with your experiment?

Roughly when do you expect to finish the 2k words and start italki?

Last time we had an A2 experiment it was Cat IV* in 35 hours and all 3 members passed. Where did you get your figure of 300 hours?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 790#p99441

[Xmmm]

Thanks for the experiment.

How confident are you that you will complete the experiment?

80%

How confident are you that you will reach A2 with your experiment?

Hmmm ...

Roughly when do you expect to finish the 2k words and start italki?

There are about 180 lessons with about 2000 words in my Irish textbooks, so six months from now. I might start Italki earlier with Georgian due to the textbooks not being as comprehensive as the Irish ones. I can get vocabulary lists anywhere, but Georgian grammar books are apparently only written for linguistics Ph.Ds (or so I've read) ...

Last time we had an A2 experiment it was Cat IV* in 35 hours and all 3 members passed. Where did you get your figure of 300 hours?
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 790#p99441

I got 300 hours from the official Irish CEFR page:

100 hours to A1
300 hours to A2
700 hours to B1
1300 hours to B2
2300 hours to C1

I don't have the link handy, but it ends in *.ie if that helps, lol. (Edit: http://www.teg.ie/faqs.150.html)

I vaguely remember reading that experiment, but what does it mean "your understanding is between A1 and A2" ... so production skills were A2 and receptive skills were A1? I'll be taking Dialang for Irish at least, so productive isn't even really measured ...

I literally didn't know one word of Georgian a few days ago, and even though I briefly studied Irish 4 years ago I probably only remembered 30 words and zero grammar ... I can change the goal to B1 if A2 in 100 hours is too easy, but B1 in 100 hours seems unreasonable ...

[MattNeilsen]

I have nothing to add other than I think this is a really cool idea and I'll be following the log. I'm hoping to have my current language to ~B2 around the same time you project finishing this challenge, so based on your results, that sounds like a perfect time for me to start adding more languages to the queue

[Expugnator]

I have been thinking about what to say the past couple of days, but all that time I knew there was only word that could express what I feel and my best wishes now: GEORGIAN!!!!

Seriously, I'm not sure what A2 actually means in practical terms. I might have been stuck on A2 for several years in Georgian, and even though I suspect I reached it confidently fast enough in Estonian, I'm sure I'd have several A1 gaps left behind, as well as some B1 checks all the way up. When I read the CEFR descriptions, I feel that A1 is incredibly short and that B1 might never come to an end. I'm sure I'm way over A2 in Georgian, Mandarin, Russian and maybe even Estonian. I might be orbiting around it for Modern Greek, even with the gaps in production, and I might just stepping in for Hebrew. Even so, I still think it's a rather short level in terms of the can-do checklist. I explain: I can see myself clearly being able to do B1 things after 2 years of sustainable dabbling (which is 200 hours on my {mis}calculations), but the vocabulary figure alone is perhaps the item most subject to controverse, because from the way I study I'll be having many more recognizable and deducible-from-context words than the A2 figure and perhaps much fewer promptly-actively- accessible-within-normal-dialog speed ones.

Actually sustainable dabbling is "only" the very early stage in my process, and it might mean even less than 20 minutes. For me, it means only 1 textbook-like resource plus some non-prioritary app-learning which goes undone as the dabbling language will be the last one or close to the last one I'll be doing on app.

For the record, I'm at that stage with Indonesian but no longer with Hebrew. On Indonesian, I'm studying 1 lesson from Indonesianpod101 (much less than 100 minutes) + 2 x 4 rounds of Clozemaster (which I get done perhaps 4x a week) + Duolingo Indonesian (ditto). I'm not at that stage with Hebrew anymore - the total amount of time I do for Hebrew is maybe 1,8x more than Indonesian, but 1,8 times very little remains very little. I believe I spend roughly 20 minutes on textbook study + 10 min on app learning on Hebrew. Over a couple of years, this adds up to a good total of hours, but I'm not sure I will ever reach B2 in a Cat IV language as I haven't yet. It's been six years since I started Georgian, and I spend 50 minutes a day on it.

The sustainable aspect is the most attractive one in my opinion, especially for people who fuss around with different methods and feel anxious about that. I've managed to be consistent about those studies all those years. Even if my final result is far from impressive for Cat IV languages, I might be better off than people who collected a series of false starts all long or simply quit altogether.

[Xmmm]

Circumstances beyond my control forced me to do my dabbling earlier this morning. I did Irish from 4:56 am to 5:16 am and Georgian from 5:16 am to 5:36 am.

Buntús Cainte is such a delightful resource. Apart from the fact that the lessons are short and loaded with rather droll cartoons, there's the fact that the dialogues are subtly imbued with Irishness. A famous example from the very first dialogue:

"It's cold."
"It's cold, but it's dry."
"It's dry, thank God."

Additionally, the use of short sentences, with a carefully chosen number of substitutions, really does allow you to start mixing and matching things in your mind. I can write, right now: Níl mé sa bhaile. Tá mé ar an mbóthar. Which is not true, since I'm sitting at a desk, but it is original output not found in the first 12 lessons that I've covered.

Why don't they make more texts like this for other languages? Sigh.

Conversational Georgian Made Easy is rather lacking in that regard. It's going through the alphabet, which has to be learned (I get it), but man ... We learn the word for onion, and we learn the word for tree, then we make a sentence: "is onion a tree?" Maybe that's a sentence in Georgian, but I don't think it's a sentence in English.

Fortunately, this course is very short. I'm almost half done with it. And it will never get anywhere close to conversation, since the alphabet is still in progress. Right now almost the only word I can remember is ლომი. I don't even know why I learned this word (seems Duolingoish), but I guess there had to be a word that started with ლ.

[Serpent]

We say that more time devoted to study will lead to better results, yet we intuitively know that 18 hours a day of language study will probably not lead to better results than 6 hours a day, and that 6 hours a day is probably only a marginal improvement over 2 hours a day.

I beg to differ
Back in 2005-2006 I would spend my holidays learning Finnish for 4-8 hours per day. Probably more if you count music (I already knew many songs and I was delighted to begin understanding individual words) I was obsessed with the language. I've never been able to do that much in any other language (unless you count reading or football, but even then probably not quite).
But I'll be the first to admit that a new language is exhausting. If you find yourself zoning out, it's definitely time to take a break/switch to another language. It's hard to do so many hours per day unless you're in an immersion situation (and even then you probably won't get out of the house some days). I'd say it's nearly impossible without incorporating music, TV or doing LR.
It depends on the language too, and on your previous exposure. Many learners of FIGS have already heard songs in these languages, and they may know single words from other sources. Obviously this can apply to learners of other languages as well. A more familiar language will not be as exhausting as a new one.

Anyway, good luck with your experiment! I hope it doesn't limit you unnecessarily. A1/A2 is such a boring time.

You may want to look up the original 6WC. It took place in 2007 and the rules were that you do a new language and learn it up to 1 hour a day for 6 weeks. It was supposed to be a comparison of different methods. I think most were aiming to do 30-40 minutes per day.

[Querneus]

I like this experiment and will be following it. It also reminds me I should revive (actually more like start) a similar experiment I said I'd carry out with Russian...