Dabbling Experiment B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901

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Xmmm
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Xmmm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:12 am

One thing I'm enjoying about this dabbling experiment is the concept of very finite time, where the limits are known in advance. I only have 20 minutes. That not only means every minute has to count, it means I need to do a little thinking about how maximize the bang for the buck. It's an optimization challenge.

I'm happy with how many Irish words and phrases I know in just 10 hours of work so far. My count for Georgian is lower, but that Georgian alphabet is a doozy. For people who've dealt with the Russian, Greek etc. alphabets, the issue is not that it's a different alphabet. The issue is that it's an alphabet where a lot of letters look very similar. It's hard to tell 'b' and 'g' apart. It's hard to tell v, k', and p' apart. Etc.

I really like the concept of dabbling, and it seems ideal for taking a language for a test drive. It avoids burnout, blah blah blah. Great. What's the problem? The problem is that you start thinking "if I could just find another 20 minutes a day I could learn German" and pretty soon you have 10 or 20 languages on your plate.


Irish

Cards: 514 (25% unknown)
BC: 20
Progress in Irish: 8

The good news is that I split my Irish into two LTL folders in Quizlet, and that released a deluge of new words, so my unknown count has dropped from 46% just a few days ago to the current 25%. I should have it cleaned up completely in another 7-10 days.

The bad news is that seeing all the new words has increased my card review time to 10 minutes, leaving only 10 minutes for the lesson. And Progress in Irish #8 is a "double lesson" (2 pages). There's also a lot of new vocabulary, and if there are rules for how to pronounce written words, it's not clear to me what they are, so I have to invest extra mental energy trying to memorize the sound. I realize in the past my experience was entirely with phonetic languages (I'm waiting for the "but Irish is phonetic" response). Still, good stuff.


Georgian

Cards: 212
Beginner's Georgian: 1

Lesson 1 is a big lesson and I'll be trapped in it for probably two more weeks. The problem, again, is card reviews. Card reviews take a long time, ten to twelve minutes. The remaining time is enough to either: a) listen to the dialogue a couple times or b) read a section covering a grammar point.

I learned that there is no infinitive form for verbs in Georgian.
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby rdearman » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:27 am

Xmmm wrote:I really like the concept of dabbling, and it seems ideal for taking a language for a test drive. It avoids burnout, blah blah blah. Great. What's the problem? The problem is that you start thinking "if I could just find another 20 minutes a day I could learn German" and pretty soon you have 10 or 20 languages on your plate.

And pretty soon you have to change your alias to Expugnator. ;)
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Xmmm » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:21 pm

Irish

Cards: 575
Buntús Cainte: 23/195
Progress in Irish: 9/72

The combination of the weird examples and dialogues in Buntús Cainte, and the production flashcards I'm using, has got a lot of Irish floating around in my head. "Ní raibh na gardái ann?" and "Sin é! Ní raibh sé ar scoil inné! Bhí sé dána." I probably missed a couple accents since I can't see any logic yet behind how they're placed, but I wrote those from memory. I could come up with a couple dozen more memorized lines, plus I could generate original content of similar (low) complexity.

My confidence level is going up that I'll be able to deliver an A2 result by the end of this experiment. And I'm starting to dream of B1. Is it possible? I should have something like 2500-3000 words plus something like 45 minutes solid of Irish dialogues to listen to.

I also have a post-experiment game plan lined up. Buntús Cainte teaches the official standard, but you're supposed to move away from that and learn a dialect. I've chosen the Connemara dialect for two reasons. One is pure convenience, because the official standard is about two-thirds Connemara dialect -- so I'll have less to relearn. Second, someone described the Munster dialect as "high and lilting" or some such, but Connemara as "quick and snappy." Quick and snappy suits me fine. Besides, everyone on the recordings is speaking the official standard with a Connemara accent and they all sound terrific to me. I also understand the most accessible resources are heavily tilted toward this dialect. Anyway, when I complete this experiment I'll do a victory lap through Colloquial Irish because it's based on Connemara.

Georgian:

Cards: 257
Beginner's Georgian: 2/11

I'm plugging along here, but the enthusiasm level is not very high. The author of Beginner's Georgian says if you apply yourself to finishing this book properly, it's the equivalent of 3 or 4 college semesters. Looking at the book, I don't see how that could be possible. And, in fact, Expugnator has disputed it. To my eye, it might be 2 college semesters. I would assume this would be the main textbook, but the college would have handouts, language lab, some short films etc. and conversation practice to supplement it. So I guess finishing this book gets you to A2.

My problem is -- how to prove that? I don't see Georgian placements tests anywhere. Note to self: next time, when setting up an experiment, choose a language with placement tests.
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Expugnator » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:44 pm

That book tells quite little actually, both in terms of vocabulary and verbs. It's ok for cases because cases are simpler in Georgian. It does cover essential vocabulary so if at least you master it you'll be off to solid ground.

I have no idea how a university course for Georgian is paced, but the fact is that book covers superficially no more than 1/3 of the grammar used on a daily TV series. I'm not talking about depth here, just breadth.

Imagine you have an Italian course where all you see is present, future and passato remoto, no congiuntivo, no enclitic pronouns. And when I say NO , I mean none at all, i.e. you won't even know such forms exist in the language. There's no way to have a normal text without these so your impression about Georgian ends up pretty much superficial.

This book is not enough to allow for a second volume right at the intermediate stage, as it hasn't even mentioned all the basics. The author has the false belief that the perfect screeve is impossible to a foreigner.

What left me so disappointed with the book is the fact the author really did a good job with those basics, so I was left looking for more and had to search in much less learner -friendly resources which delayed my learning in at least three years.

Like I told you we have better resources for Georgian now ever since I started mining for them in 2009 but the transition to the intermediate is left in a chaos the learner has to navigate on their own because it's the remaining portion of grammar that no one has actually managed to present in a learner's, non-technical way.
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Xmmm » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:43 pm

I have to say, I have a new-found appreciation for your accomplishments in Georgian.

I knew it was category IV+, but I always assumed you learned it with Colloquial Georgian, or Teach Yourself Georgian, or DLI Georgian, or some university textbook -- but none of these resources actually exist. All there is is this substandard beginner's text and then as you said, this complete void at the intermediate level. I doubt if I could read the grammars written by linguist Ph.Ds for other linguist Ph.Ds, so for me the only chance to progress beyond would be thousands of hours of exposure and paying someone online to give me lessons for ten years.

Really, getting to a B1 level under such circumstances is a big deal. As a casual learner, I'd rather take a category V like Mandarin and just kick back and do FSI drills and tune in to Chinesepod ... and I doubt if the payoff from this language could (for me) ever justify the amount of work involved. I'm getting a bit pessimistic on this one.
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Expugnator » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:55 pm

There are some other good resources, but they are in German and Russian. Besides that there's not much intrinsically hard about the language. You can form sentences as a beginner, unlike Russian. I find it easier than both Russian and Mandarin, which is reflected on my levels for each of these languages. I could live in Georgian if the need arose, but I'd need intense preparation for either ZH or RU.

Vocabulary acquisition is favored by the low level of homonyms, the phonemic spelling, the pronunciation (all this you only notice one you get used to the alphabet and sound contrasts, though).

You are better off than me; someone else has been there and climbed that ladder before you. I can't compare my situation to the occasional support by Tixhiidon on HTLAL because he attended classes with natives, was already fluent in German and Russian (language pair with the best resources) before I started and didn't actually share insights on the daily struggles of a self-learner, to the extent that there's little to no overlap in our paths.

There will be a moment when you'll be able to just relax and enjoy a lame dubbed series in Georgian, as long as you can stand multi voice over dubbing.
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Re: Dabbling Experiment A2 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby drmweaver2 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:33 pm

As far as self-assessment goes, you two might find the 2nd book on the Learn>Self-Assessment page of interest:http://geofl.ge/#!/page_home
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Re: Dabbling Experiment B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Xmmm » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:18 am

I'm 14 hours into Georgian and have decided to abandon it. I must have been on drugs or had some weird delusions of grandeur to take it up in the first place, but after some time stewing in the juice of this really bad decision, I've realized that I have neither the time, nor the talent, nor the energy, nor the burning passion that's going to drive me like a whip to overcome and all obstacles at any cost. Nor have the charms of the Georgian language started to reveal themselves to me in any way.

I was aware of the intrinsic challenges of the language going in, but I severely underestimated the extrinsic challenges. There's a real shortage of quality learner materials and, despite Expugnator's generous offers to help, the last thing I want is him carrying my pack for me. I've been on this board for more than three years, and although I've asked plenty of general language learning questions (and received lots of assistance, thank you all), I don't ever recall asking anyone a language-related "why is it like this or how does that work" question. This is because I know how to read, and I expect learner materials to answer those sorts of questions. If a language doesn't have such materials, then it's a language for bold polyglot adventurers -- but not me.

Again, going back to the "Six Languages" concept, my exotic slots are filled anyway by Turkish and Irish -- and goodness knows I have years of work to do there. The empty slot I have is for a broader sphere language, and therefore I've decided to make my high school German great again.

Obviously, German is a lot easier than Georgian so to compensate for this -- I have to raise the bar for the outcome. So this log is now officially the B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901 log.

Sorry to anyone I've disappointed. I let my enthusiasms run away with me sometimes--it's a fault.

To Expugnator: respects!


Irish

cards: 626
Buntús Cainte: 26
Progress in Irish: 11

German

cards: 109
German Without Toil: 13
German FSI: 1.2
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Re: Dabbling Experiment B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby Xmmm » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:20 am

ロータス wrote:As someone who has learned through watching TV and reading books without the use of flashcards and is now using them for their newer languages, do you feel they are a necessary evil in the beginner phase or have you come to enjoy creating and reviewing them?

When I saw you were picking up new languages, I was surprised to see you creating flashcards for them as I thought you were testing out flashcard's worth in your other log. I look forward so seeing what you use for German. Do you know about the DW courses and resources?


I know about DW, but I want to use German Without Toil and FSI German. That's the German I was learning 35 years ago. I'll figure what happened in these reforms later.

I've started to look at flashcards as a necessary evil -- for me. What I'm doing with Turkish is extreme, and I'm only doing it for a brief amount of time to see if I can blow up a logjam that is preventing me from enjoying my Turkish TV viewing. Even if it works (and it might), I'm unlikely to repeat it.

But I'm most excited about this dabbling methodology I stole from Expugnator and jeff_lindqvist. It seems too good to be true. I can do 20 minutes a day, a short lesson plus some flash card reviews, and end up in a year as a B1 with 3000+ words in the bank? What's the catch? If it's that easy, why does anyone do it any other way? I'm mean, obviously there's a catch. I'm guessing the catch is "20 minutes a day doesn't give you enough time to internalize the lessons" ... so the B1 ends up being a A2. But that's just a guess. In the meantime -- I can dream, right?
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Re: Dabbling Experiment B1 in 20 minutes by 20190901

Postby smallwhite » Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:22 am

German listening is relatively easy so since you already have some background in it, TV would probably be a good approach that suits you better than studying.
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