Adventures in bad memory, Russian

[drmweaver2]

I stumbled across this website/forum and hope it "solves" my desire to track my progress in (re-)learning Russian.
You guys and your stories have inspired and motivated me to post here... So blame this on yourselves! Lol.

Long story-short, I've been fascinated by Russian since I was in my teens (a few decades ago, to be honest). The interest probably grew out of an interest in WW2. Later, I became a military intelligence geek during the Cold War and that somewhat obviously involved an interest in "the Bear". After my first enlistment (in the Army), I brought home a full set of DLI Russian (Basic & Intermediate) tapes that my unit was tossing out - no books, but all the tapes (reel-to-reel!). I managed to listen to them for about 2 months before I admitted I was completely lost. After my 2nd enlistment, (this time in the Navy), I went back to college and took my first formal Russian class - the instructor actually happened to be a DLI graduate. Three and a half semesters later, I reached "my limit" again and dropped it all. I could fake my way through things but had a very limited vocabulary, little real understanding f the grammar and saw no near-term use for Russian for me regardless of my progress.

And there it lay... for a couple decades.

Decided to try again now that I've been retired for a while. If nothing else, it'll occupy time and for soe strange reason, I'm still interested in the language itself.

So, I started from scratch, again. I began about 3.5 weeks ago. Progress has been made (draggin things out of the dark recesses of my gray matter has been interesting, to say the least). I've already hit my first motivational roller-coaster hill climb. But I've survived it and am on the other side now.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm cheap, so I went to the local library and found they had all 4 volumes of the Pimsleur Russian course. Checked it all out and copied it. Started working with it. Otoh, they had exactly 1, count it, 1, Russian language book and it sucketh the big one. But I checked that out also as there wasn't anything else "free". Okay, now I've put myself in a hole... made a commitment, found myself without sufficient materials (in my mind at least) and felt lost.

Then I became "brilliant" (at least in my own mind). The Internet! Yeah, the Internet! Look on the 'Net, ya dummy. I did and found an unGodly amount of stuff - good, bad and of indeterminate value. YouTube sucked up quite a few hours as I explored one "how/where to start" video after another from polyglots, linguists, self-starters, and a whole gamut of other sources. Talk about a time-sink. But it was useful in the end.

Sigh. And talk about information overload. Finally, I felt that I had sifted through enough to have hit an "okay, I have some idea about how to proceed" point. Still, I only physically had the Pimsleur stuff - until I eBay'd myself a copy of the Penguin Russian course for the astronomical price of $4 including shipping. And dealt with the ethical issue of my nephew's harping on "go get some torrent/pirated stuff...why pay money...someone surely uploaded things you can use". We won't go into that discussion in any detail, nor will I admit or deny where I ended up on the issue/materials-wise.

And searching around on the "Interwebs" I also came across my old friends, the DLI materials, for FREE!. Yep, downloaded all of them. I immediately found that the texts make all the difference when trying to understand the audio files. Go me! Bonus, I also found the FSI course materials... So, I have at least 3 sources of audio files and accompanying texts to work with.

Except to say that I now also have the Glossika Russian course. They just feel right for me. And that's my primary source/work/method - pick a word - now.

So, here're my goals for the near-term:
1. Pie in the sky: Read either The Hobbit or LOTR in Russian by Christmas 2018/New Years Day 2019.
2. Realistic: Get through all 3000 Glossika GMS sentences by Dec 1, 2018.
3. Get through Pimsleur 1-4 by Dec 31, 2018.
4. Have an active, working vocabulary of at least 4000 words by Dec 31, 2018.
5. Average 2 hour-long language-exchange sessions in Russian each week from Oct 1 - Dec 31, 2018.
6. Have a weekly tutor session on iTalki each week from Oct 1 - Dec 31, 2018.
7. Write at least 3 paragraphs each day about something, anything, but write. A paragraph must be at least 8 sentences long and have at least 100 words in it. So, write a minimum of 300 words a day in Russian.
8. Work my way through the Penguin book I mentioned above.
9. Work my way through "A Russian Grammar Workbook" by Terence Wade (another eBay find).
10. Listen to/watch 30 minutes of Russian TV each day - YouTube source will vary. Comprehension will definitely vary.

Oh... and #0, post at least every other day to document my "progress", such as it is, to keep myself honest.

Next post will be a about my method/process and progress so far.

[drmweaver2]

End of day thoughts reflecting on things that arose throughout the day...

Ran across two technically unrelated posts/threads elsewhere where the discussion of "repetition", comprehensible input and length of time to reach "fluency" (no, won't get into that discussion in detail right now, thank you very much) was all mixed together. I'm using Glossika and one guy's reference to this is what caught my eye and made me think.

After something like 4-plus years, he estimated that he'd done ~1,000,000 reps in order to attain C1-level fluency. Intimidating number until I "did the math". It worked out to about 600 reps per day (we're talking exposure to individual sentences, aural or written, and these could be repetitions of identical sentences or entirely unique sentences encountered throughout the day). Glossika's system/18-week schedule works out to be about 50,000 reps or so, I think.

I just looked at my spreadsheet that I'm using to track my work effort and I've been averaging over 420 Glossika-only reps per day so far. So, justifiably or not, I'm semi-impressed with myself ("impressed" isn't the right word, but "satisfied" definitely isn't either).

In the 3 weeks since I came back to Russian, I've "recorded" my exposure to over 10,000 reps of Glossika, Pimsleur and old DLI-tape materials. My ear is beginning to be "tuned" to the Russian phonemes and speech rhythm. It is semi-amazing to me that I've even found it beneficial to listen to some recordings at 1.5-2 times the recorded speed and then slow the recording back to normal speed. It seems to help me differentiate the mini-pauses or separations between words. (This was something I learned to do when learning Morse Code - practice at 25wpm to pass the test at 18wpm...things seemed REALLY slow while taking the test!) And using Audacity to graphically stretch out some utterances showed me that sometimes people are running the ends of words into and over the beginnings of other words. That was very instructive and helpful after struggling with a couple of the recordings.

I'm averaging between 4 and 6 hours of concentrated study each day interspersed throughout the day (I'm retired full-time). Less than I intend or want, but I get distracted by YouTube too easily when taking what should be small breaks between periods of focus and when my focus begins to wander - or after I've completed an exercise and reward myself with (what should be just) a mini-break. Gotta work on that - maybe using a physical timer to remind myself to turn the YouTube thing off after X number of minutes (but it really is an addicition!)?

I keep putting off practicing handwriting Cyrillic script though I can read it. Not sure why.
I've reached about 20wpm typing with a Cyrillic keyboard layout which is simultaneously encouraging and disappointing. Encouraging because it was initially very difficult for me to "get" the Cyrillic layout - my fingers were "all thumbs" and just wouldn't even try for the correct keys. Now, not so much. Disappoint because it's so sloooooooooooow. Accuracy is above 85%.... far from perfect, but improving.

Time to let the unconscious process today's effort. See ya.

[IronMike]

Welcome! It's great to have another veteran in the forums.

[drmweaver2]

@IronMike - ref your PM. Apparently, I'm unable to reply to your PM due to insufficient "privileges" at this time.
Here's the public reply.
Army 98J20 - Non-Communications Intercept Operator/Analyst - Germany (Augsburg, Ansbach, numerous TDYs throughout Germany) 1974-77
Army National Guard - 1977-80 Artilleryman/Forward Observer
Navy - CTM/CTT/SK - Electronic Maintenance(Cryptologic) / Cryptologic Technician Technical (basically same as an Army 98J) / Storekeeper 1980-1996 (retired Jan 1997)
I switched "Rates" from Maintenance back to Operator because breaking things is so much more fun than fixing them!
Stationed in/extended TDY's to: Guam (3yrs), Okinawa(3yrs), Misawa, The Phillipines, Adak(18mths), Turkey(1yr), Stuttgart(3yrs) (with a TDY to W Berlin that ended 1 month prior to The Wall "coming down"), and numerous US duty stations.(Actually, that Berlin TDY only lasted 87 days; if it had been 90, I'd have earned the Occupation Ribbon...oh darn.)

I was stationed with all 5 services (USA, USAF, USN, USMC and even USCG) at various times and duty stations. I was part of the Classic Bulldog and Classic Wizard projects for years - then there was a drawdown and I wound up having to change rates to SK to reach retirement.

Funny thing I mention in response to your own military service... I was supposed to be an Army 98G/"Ru-ling" but the paper processor/guy at the downtown in-processing station misheard my recruiter over the phone and wrote down "98J" on some form instead. I certainly didn't know or notice the difference? My recruiter made his bonus either way (all 98's being the same "value" for that bonus) and didn't catch or correct the mistake. So, instead of months at DLI Monterey, I spent a few weeks at Ft. Devens, Mass before heading over to Germany.

[drmweaver2]

A "standard" day... lots of concentration on audio-based input. 90 minutes of Glossika, 35 minutes of Pimsleur and about 4 hours of various Russian-audio YouTube videos (mostly 7-15 minute grammar lesson videos). ~75 minutes of written/typing work.

Began what I should have done before - entering all 3000 Glossika sentences into my personalize Anki deck via an Excel spreadsheet. If I were a more proficient Cyrillic typist, this would not be as time-consuming as it has been. I can type in about 100 sentences in both Russian and English before I become so bored I need to switch to something else. Once I get that done, I'll debate whether to add audio files culled using Audacity or move on to entering the sentences from the Pimsleur course(s).

With respect to Anki-itself. I really like the idea. I do have issues with it, however. Maybe I'm just slow, inattentive or it doesn't like me as much as I like it. By that I mean, I like that it takes care of the scheduling. But actually making the cards seems more tedious than making physical cards. That you can associate audio files and pics with the Anki cards is great... But, man, the time it takes to do so (Google and Audacity do some of the grunt work, but it still takes so much personal effort & investment compared to making a simple physical card)!

Going through the cards is not an issue, except that (maybe) I tend to go through them too fast and end up having to repeat/review/study too many cards "far too often" before I mark them "learned"/either 3 or 4. The very fact that I can count on Anki showing me the cards I keep missing almost encourages me to not concentrate.."no worries, mate. I'll show it to you again as many times as you provide electricity for."

So, I'm kinda mixing materials SRS-wise - I have made about 200 physical cards that were originally Anki cards but the info/words on them just didn't seem to stick with me as Anki-only cards. I began doing this about a week ago and it has helped with remembering specific cards - BUT it's additional "overhead" in terms of both time and material.

After three weeks of self-study, I'm still trying to gauge the value received for time invested of various tools, methods and materials that I've found. The only one I'm absolutely settled on is Glossika, though I intend to begin working my way through the DLI Basic course materials in two weeks - replacing or supplementing the Penguin New Russian Course as the latter doesn't have any audio files to go with it.

I am considering substituting word lists for the physical cards. Probably trying the 5-column method. But that isn't likely to happen in the next 10 days as I'm going to try to figure out "my issue with Anki" before changing.

More later(tomorrow) as I feel like I'm beginning to ramble (in minutiae, no less).

[drmweaver2]

Another day.. another 50 cents... Oh wait.. that's a different blog...
Sorry.
Managed ~5.25 hours of concentrated and focused audio input today (Glossika, Pimsleur and YT videos). Plus another 3 hours of not-so-focused audio input while watching my weekly college football game. (Geaux Tigers! ) And 2 hours of "grammar workbook exercises".

My plan tomorrow is to listen to 30 minutes of the audio recording of LOTR I found on YT in addition to the "normal" dose of Glossika, Pimsleur and other YT videos. I'm also going to buckle down and handwrite Cyrillic script, which I've mentioned before that I've been putting off.

I continue to work on entering the 3000 Glossika sentences into my Excel spreadsheet in preparation for importing them into Anki. Man, that has been a truly boring and tedious job as I have to actually type it all in 3 sentence "bursts" (first in Russian, then again in English). I have to resize/zoom in on the page because I don't see so well and only 3 sentence-groups [Russian/English and then 2 phonetic transcriptions per group] fit on the screen at a time) because Glossika's PDF file is apparently from an OCR picture. So highlight, copy and past isn't possible, Sigh. Did I say tedious? Yeah, I did.

I probably should just type the sentences for the next day...but that doesn't "get the job done". I mean, it feels like I'm NOT completing it when I don't just keep on keepin' on as we used to say in the Army. Or maybe I'm just OCD? Who knows?

[Ani]

Using Glossika legally, via the app, is significantly more convenient :-/

[drmweaver2]

Using Glossika legally, via the app, is significantly more convenient :-/

Hmmm, I am using a legally-obtained, 2nd hand copy of the non-web-app version of Glossika. I'm too cheap to pay for a subscription that wants to continually reach into my wallet. Money is limited but time is "free" when you're retired like I am. Pay $$$ once, use many times makes more sense for me.

Convenience? Never heard of it. At least not in the context of "a foreigner" learning Russian.
I thought it was standard knowledge that learning Russian was supposed to be work-intensive, painful and ego-shaming. I'm just doing my bit to maintain the Truth of the Myth.

And isn't part of the "strength of the SRS/Anki method" supposed to be making and customizing the cards yourself? If so, convenience doesn't enter the equation.

[drmweaver2]

Monday, Monday... Start of the week. Fresh motivation and a new set of near-term goals.
Well, let's start by admitting I didn't get nearly as much done yesterday as I intended. I only spent 4 hours actively listening to my Glossika and Pimsleur stuff and didn't get in any significant Anki or writing work.

Today has started off much more slowly than I intended also. Though I slept well (or thought I did), I wound up falling asleep while doing my Glossika reps this morning. I had queued up 60-75 minutes of Glossika audio and only remember hearing about 50 minutes of it before waking 2 hours later. Um, where'd the time and focus gooooooooooo? I dunno.

Another bit of time lost involves a thread I started on another forum/website which had gained some traction over the last 3 weeks - it's about my goal of reading LotR in Russian by Xmas this year. I'd started the thread by mentioning the project, asked if anyone else had tried something similar and then made a few comments myself on my "process" and the difficulties I was having. Remember that I'm starting over, from a mid-A1/low-A2 level so my grammar sux and my vocab is minimal at the start of this project. Add to that that JRR Tolkein is a linguist who likes word-play and you can see this is a "big project" with built-in difficulties. So, comments, suggestions and advice in relation to my initial post were basically split - half positive and half negative. They also varied in "value" in terms of "no freaking way, you're an idiot to try to do something I think is a C2-level task with a less-than-A1 level background" to "well, try using word frequency lists first, then x, then y...good luck. I'll be interested in following how this works for you. I wouldn't have the guts to even try it.". To be honest, even some of the supportive ones contained aspects that were quite critical. Unfortunately, my personality keys in on the negative (or at least those less than 90% positive) and that makes things interesting, to say the least.

Well, today it got to me and I basically exited that thread. I'm going to continue with the project, but not write about it there. Anyway, that actually took a while to decide and then act on...another hour lost there. Viewing this website-log as "mine" as opposed to a public discussion thread (and I admit that I opened the thread in a public discussion forum), I hope I can avoid the trap of paying any attention to any non-supportive comments.So, I just have to focus on myself, my goals and my process as a measure of my progress.

On a positive note, one of the last posts I read over there actually provided me with a lead to an online version of the LotR text (I own hard copies of both English and Russian texts) which will allow me to copy and paste words and phrases into online translators when I run into difficulties - rather than typing them using my snail's pace ~20wpm Cyrillic typing skills. I'd looked and looked and couldn't find Russian LotR texts. But the poster suggested looking using the text of the first sentence inthe book and, voila! There it was - multiple returns. So, something good came out of it after all.

With a 32" monitor, I can now have side-by-side texts on screen as shown in the attached picture - basically a customized dual-text reading and analysis screen. I don't claim this as my idea as it's been inspired by a fellow who uses a similar screen setup to watch and learn from Russian TV programs using subtitles.

So, that's where I am today. Mood kinda down despite being able to see some positives as far as learning Russian and making progress on my project goes. Hopefully, things/my mood will improve as the evening moves on.

Later.

[StringerBell]

Another bit of time lost involves a thread I started on another forum/website which had gained some traction over the last 3 weeks - it's about my goal of reading LotR in Russian by Xmas this year. I'd started the thread by mentioning the project, asked if anyone else had tried something similar and then made a few comments myself on my "process" and the difficulties I was having. Remember that I'm starting over, from a mid-A1/low-A2 level so my grammar sux and my vocab is minimal at the start of this project. Add to that that JRR Tolkein is a linguist who likes word-play and you can see this is a "big project" with built-in difficulties..

Hi drmweaver2, I hope you find this to be a "supportive comment" because I think your idea is very possible. I want to share something sort of similar that I've been doing, and how I've done it, and maybe some things to keep in mind.

In my case, I decided that I really wanted to try my hand at reading the Polish translation of one of my favorite novels at a point where I had something like 400 hours of exposure and felt like I was in the high A2/low B1 for comprehension (I'm never sure what my actual level is). Needless to say, I knew going into it that it would be really challenging and in fact it was. At this point I'm in the middle of Chapter 4, so I haven't come close to completing the task, but I think it's given me some insight that might be relevant to what you want to do.

I bought the novel in the form of an ebook, so since it was digital, I pasted it into a word doc. I separated every 4 lines creating my own "paragraphs" (because I eventually discovered this was the ideal # of lines for my purpose). I copy+pasted a page worth of Polish text into google translate, separated the paragraphs to match mine, and then pasted the English translations underneath each 4-line text (there is an example of this on the 1st page of my log, though not with this novel).

In effect, I created some kind of "parallel text". I then color-coded sections to make it easier to follow along (because I was simultaneously listening to the ebook while reading the text). Are you planning to listen to an audiobook version as well, or just read on your own?

So, my observations about this process are:
1) It's challenging but doable if you go into it expecting it to be challenging and you don't let that discourage you.
2) In my experience, it worked better to do it in "doses" meaning, I'd spend and hour or two on the novel and then focus on material that was closer to my level. Doing this made the other material feel much easier and gave my brain a much-needed break, even though I was still working with the language.
3) Having an easy to access translation makes it much more doable. Having to look up words you don't understand on the spot will likely feel really punishing, but if you have a parallel text set up (like you mentioned) then it likely won't feel as frustrating.
4) One thing that really helped me when I first started reading in Italian was to read a chapter first in English and then read it in the other language. It removed some of the cognitive load of trying to figure out what was going on. I don't know how well you know each chapter of LotR, but this could still really help even if you know it fairly well.
5) In the beginning, I really like to listen to the audiobook while reading the text because it helps me to internalize the pronunciation of the words and reduces the burden of having to decode every word. You could always do something like read a page while listening to the audiobook and then read it on your own.

Ultimately, these are just things that worked for me, and if you have a different vision of what you want to do, I think you should give it a try. Even if you decide it's too frustrating, you can always revisit the idea in a few months. I read the first 3 chapters of my Polish novel, got overwhelmed, put it on the back burner for a few months, and when I came back to it, it felt much more doable. So taking a break doesn't mean failure or defeat.