2021: A Spanish Odyssey

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Cavesa
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:35 pm

Congratulations to your DELF!!!! It's an awesome achievement!
......................

Truth be told, I think those faculty members are right. As someone on the other side of that situation than you: I am helpful, I use English with the foreign classmates, or when they are around. But I feel a bit like your professors. The people refusing to learn the local language of the country they've chosen to stay for 6 years in, they really give the impression: "I am here just because I failed to get to a better country and don't care about this one at all. But sure, I'll profit from it in any way I can". Sorry to say it rather bluntly and to not be on your side. But answer it yourself: would you act the same way, if you were not on Cyprus but in a more prestigious country like the Switzerland?

But I love your solution and welcoming foreign professors so beautifully and profiting from the practice opportunity. And of course, let's not forget most people express themselves much better in their native language than English, it is really a different experience to learn from someone in each of the languages. That's why I think many more congresses should opt for simultaneous interpreting or subtitles, instead of making every lecturer use English (or give each lecturer a choice). I think everybody is losing a lot of value this way. I've heard far too many academics suddenly sound like morons in English.

As a language learner, I am not sure why you don't embrace the opportunity of learning at least one of the two languages. Yes, I understand that the norm is switching to English even for one foreigner in the group these days, but I don't think it is a fortunate solution in case of long term staying expats/immigrants. At least an honest attempt and the basics could be a very good gesture and give you many advantages (how do you know those people aren't talking about something fascinating? or gossiping about you? :-D ). Language Transfer started with these two languages, perhaps giving it a try might be worth it, but I understand you've got a lot on your plate.
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Melkor
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Melkor » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:23 am

Skynet wrote:To deal with my impenitent co-workers, I simply resolved to speak English in my normal tone and cadence, and to use my French and nascent German at every single opportunity presented to me...

This is so out of character! You clearly blew a fuse. Was für ein ungezogener Junge! :twisted:

Iversen wrote:And why should they change?


Cavesa wrote:Truth be told, I think those faculty members are right. As someone on the other side of that situation than you: I am helpful, I use English with the foreign classmates, or when they are around. But I feel a bit like your professors. The people refusing to learn the local language of the country they've chosen to stay for 6 years in, they really give the impression: "I am here just because I failed to get to a better country and don't care about this one at all. But sure, I'll profit from it in any way I can". Sorry to say it rather bluntly and to not be on your side. But answer it yourself: would you act the same way, if you were not on Cyprus but in a more prestigious country like the Switzerland?


Skynet has made an effort to learn Greek on the island. I am not sure why he does not state that on his profile, but his Greek is probably just below his Farsi: A1+ and illiterate. Whenever someone invites you for a function, you are their guest and they are your host. Jabbering on in front of a guest that you invited in a foreign language is extremely impolite and downright inhospitable. No-one is expected to be able to understand high-speed conversations between natives after just a year, and to expect that of him is sadistic. If anything, that would put me off these languages for good! Then there are the inconvenient truths that a) he's leaving the island as soon as he graduates (ie, why devote yourself to something that you won't use?) and has never wavered in his determination to leave, b) he's not studying linguistics or languages, he's doing a double master's in something else and already has a full plate and c) he's stated on this forum on numerous occasions that he studies languages primarily for their socio-economic and academic benefits. Neither language meets these criteria, so pragmatism is needed as he prioritises his time.

However, if he decided to stay here, then he would be expected to become the best Greek and Turkish speaker in the world, as he would have no excuse not to be so.
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Jean-Luc
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Jean-Luc » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:16 am

Skynet wrote:Mischievous Rant:
they immediately jettison me from their conversations by speaking in Greek and Turkish. On one occasion, I asked them to speak in English and I was immediately excoriated and told "It's our country, so we can speak our language. You came here, so you must learn.

As far as I know Greece and Turkey are not quite the same country... One is wrong!
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Maiwenn
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Maiwenn » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:22 am

Jean-Luc wrote:
Skynet wrote:Mischievous Rant:
they immediately jettison me from their conversations by speaking in Greek and Turkish. On one occasion, I asked them to speak in English and I was immediately excoriated and told "It's our country, so we can speak our language. You came here, so you must learn.

As far as I know Greece and Turkey are not quite the same country... One is wrong!


Greece and Turkey aren't the only places Greek and Turkish are spoken.... Both languages are official languages in Cyprus.

Congrats on the DELF, Skynet!!! Really impressive results. :) I look forward to seeing how quickly you outpace me in German. ;)
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Cavesa
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:18 am

Melkor wrote:Skynet has made an effort to learn Greek on the island. I am not sure why he does not state that on his profile, but his Greek is probably just below his Farsi: A1+ and illiterate.
Ah, not sure why he doesn't mention it. But still, it is not that much, for a language of the country he is living in for some time.

Whenever someone invites you for a function, you are their guest and they are your host. Jabbering on in front of a guest that you invited in a foreign language is extremely impolite and downright inhospitable.


To a function:sure, you are right, you should always accommodate the guest on the function. But in the daily life and work? That is different. But I guess that is something we won't agree on, due to different life experience from different countries, and due to one of us having the English native privilege. You will never get to a situation, when you'll have to cater to an immigrant and speak their language or be considered extremely impolite. And even listen to their remarks on the uselessness of your native language. It simply doesn't happen in the anglophone countries. And it is sometimes very humiliating.


No-one is expected to be able to understand high-speed conversations between natives after just a year, and to expect that of him is sadistic. If anything, that would put me off these languages for good! Then there are the inconvenient truths that a) he's leaving the island as soon as he graduates (ie, why devote yourself to something that you won't use?) ]and has never wavered in his determination to leave, b) he's not studying linguistics or languages, he's doing a double master's in something else and already has a full plate and

Exactly. The country is good enough to give him a degree but not good enough to be respected up to B1 level? Active B1 with higher comprehension (and I am convinced all those people would be more willing to speak slower than to switch to another language) is nothing unreasonable to ask from immigrants/expats and works very well for daily life and work. It is normal to go abroad for a few years. But when you go to a respected country, you usually learn the language. Because you are supposed to use it while being there. Sure, the hierarchy is pretty clear and the anglophones tend to not respect any country enough (but I have met exceptions, who had learnt the local languages, which was very useful and a pleasure). But when it comes to the rest of the world, it is simply sad that so many will greedily grab the foreign opportunity while still showing contempt for the country by not learning the language and expecting the natives to adapt (and it's hilarious, when they do so despite speaking far from perfect English). About the full plate: Again, I don't think people immigrating to Germany or the Switzerland (from not anglophone countries at least, that privilege is something different) dare to not find the time for the local language and look for excuses.

and has never wavered in his determination to leave, b) he's not studying linguistics or languages, he's doing a double master's in something else and already has a full plate andc) he's stated on this forum on numerous occasions that he studies languages primarily for their socio-economic and academic benefits. Neither language meets these criteria, so pragmatism is needed as he prioritises his time. However, if he decided to stay here, then he would be expected to become the best Greek and Turkish speaker in the world, as he would have no excuse not to be so.


What beter socio-economic reason than living in the country is there? Sure, staying for a month wouldn't be a huge reason. But staying for a few years is really different. And normal communication with the rest of the local academics is a benefit too. Or are those worthless too, just good enough to hand out the diploma?
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Jean-Luc
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Jean-Luc » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:51 am

Maiwenn wrote:
Jean-Luc wrote:
Skynet wrote:Mischievous Rant:
they immediately jettison me from their conversations by speaking in Greek and Turkish. On one occasion, I asked them to speak in English and I was immediately excoriated and told "It's our country, so we can speak our language. You came here, so you must learn.

As far as I know Greece and Turkey are not quite the same country... One is wrong!


Greece and Turkey aren't the only places Greek and Turkish are spoken.... Both languages are official languages in Cyprus.

Congrats on the DELF, Skynet!!! Really impressive results. :) I look forward to seeing how quickly you outpace me in German. ;)


I see, this took place in the republic of Cyprus not the Northern part.
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Jean-Luc
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Jean-Luc » Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:52 am

Jean-Luc wrote:
Maiwenn wrote:
Jean-Luc wrote:
Skynet wrote:Mischievous Rant:
they immediately jettison me from their conversations by speaking in Greek and Turkish. On one occasion, I asked them to speak in English and I was immediately excoriated and told "It's our country, so we can speak our language. You came here, so you must learn.

As far as I know Greece and Turkey are not quite the same country... One is wrong!


Greece and Turkey aren't the only places Greek and Turkish are spoken.... Both languages are official languages in Cyprus.

Congrats on the DELF, Skynet!!! Really impressive results. :) I look forward to seeing how quickly you outpace me in German. ;)


I see, this took place in the republic of Cyprus not the Northern part where Turkish is the only official language.
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Lawyer&Mom
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:31 pm

Cavesa wrote:Exactly. The country is good enough to give him a degree but not good enough to be respected up to B1 level?


Um, you are taking your Czech medical degree to France? You wish Czechia had stuck with German? I mean, sure, you speak Czech, but do you really respect it? To a B1 level?

I adore you Cavesa, but this seems like a pot/kettle/black situation.
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Cavesa
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:04 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Exactly. The country is good enough to give him a degree but not good enough to be respected up to B1 level?


Um, you are taking your Czech medical degree to France? You wish Czechia had stuck with German? I mean, sure, you speak Czech, but do you really respect it? To a B1 level?

I adore you Cavesa, but this seems like a pot/kettle/black situation.


I am practically showing respect to the Czech language every day. I speak and write the language better than most people (which is rather sad, as I do not consider myself to be a great writer. The self-proclaimed patriots make tons of basic mistakes, people with degrees are often unable to put a readable email together, notable public figures can't speak properly and unintentionally create dada poetry, and so on), I have read much more in it than majority. So, the fact I really wish our ancestors would have been wiser and stuck to German has nothing to do with it, as actions speak much louder than opinions. I earned a degree in a country the language of which I speak. Had I left the country for my studies, I would have learnt the local language there. Simple. If my plan to leave for France turned out to be impossible, I'd learn the language of the second choice.

However, I can't see how these answers could change the fact, that it should be automatic for immigrants/expats planning to stay for several years to learn the local language. It is a very basic and obvious thing. I have no clue why it stopped being automatic in our times. Perhaps English has simply destroyed basic logic in these issues, which would be rather sad.

I'll google the pot/kettle/black :-)
edit: googled it and it doesn't apply. Skynet is using hospitality of a foreign country and not speaking the language. I consider my native language's existence a historical mistake for valid reasons, and have already proven to go beyond expectations, as far as learning the language of my hosts (for example back in Spain) is concerned. I can't see any similarity.
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rdearman
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Re: Skynet gets a Steckerbrett and becomes ENIGMA

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:34 pm

Not sure Skynet's log is the place for this discussion? [[Skynet if you want me to move this last page from your log to its own thread, let me know]]
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