Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

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Deinonysus
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Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:53 pm

Just when I'm ready to buckle down and commit to Hebrew, Duolingo has to ruin my plans and release Indonesian in Beta! Duolingo and Pimsleur are my classic beginner resource combo, so I'll be using them together. Pimsleur has one level of Indonesian available, consisting of 30 lessons. I got my hands on the first 10 lessons, and I've ordered the full course from another library system. It should take me around 2 months to get through the whole course, and I should be able to make good progress in Duolingo in that time as well. I may need to cut this side quest short if I am able to audit a class in German or French.

~~~Why Indonesian?~~~

1: Indonesia

I have been fascinated with Indonesia for a long time. I love gamelan music, which inspired a lot of 20th century classical music, from Debussy to the Minimalist movement. I was lucky enough to attend a Javanese gamelan concert a couple of months ago and it was absolutely fantastic! It's a very different listening experience from most other music. You don't really listen for individual notes or quick changes, you just let the music wash over you and notice it slowly evolving (which is also basically how Minimalist music is suposed to work).

I also love the wildlife. Indonesia is home to the asian apes: the orangutan (a bastardization of the Indonesian "orang hutan", or "forest person") and gibbons. And the island of Komodo is famously home to the world's largest lizard.

And the vistas! Jungles and volcanoes and beaches and islands! And the coffee! The islands of Java and Sumatra are synonymous with it. Visiting Indonesia is absolutely on my bucket list.

2: Ease of learning

But I am fascinated with a lot of languages and cultures. What makes Indonesian stand out is that it is also famously easy for foreigners to learn, due to its simple grammar, phonetic Latin alphabet, and lack of difficult phonemes. Barry Farber described it as hands down the world's easiest language to learn. The FSI is a bit less optimistic, rating it as easier than most languages but still more difficult than English's close relatives. But now that it's available on the McDonald's of language learning, I'm pretty confident that I can make quick progress and maybe be able to skim newspaper articles by the end of this side-quest.

3: Massive utility

I would make the argument that the Indonesian Language is the most bang for your buck of any language in the world.

Indonesia is the fourth largest country in the world, and at least 200 million of its population of 260 million speak Indonesian. It is a dialect of Malay, which is also an official language in Malaysia (population over 30 million), Singapore (population over 5 million, with around 10% speaking Malay at home), and Brunei (population around 1/2 million). It's hard to determine exactly how many Malay speakers there are, but I have seen estimates of up to 290 Million (although this is unsourced from Wikipedia).

While French and Spanish have more speakers, Latin America and la Francophonie are closely integrated with the Anglophone world, and you hear about them often on Anglophone international news outlets. Contrast with Indonesia, which you only hear about if a disaster happens even though it's one of the world's biggest countries. So the Indonesian language gives you access to a world that is fairly closed off from most Western news outlets.

~~~My Experience so far~~~
This is only my first day studying Indonesian but here are my first impressions.

The syntax reminds me a lot of Modern Hebrew. The word order is SVO (as in English as well). Adjectives seem to go after the nouns. And a copula ("to be") is typically not used.

The courses seem to be very inconsistent with pronouns. There are formal and informal pronouns. Here is an abbreviated list from Wikibooks:

PersonSingular FormalSingular InformalPlural
1st (I/we)SayaAkuKita/Kami
2nd (you)AndaKamuKalian
3rd (he/she/it/they)BeliauDiaMereka
[***Edit: I fixed an error in my chart that Axon pointed out. I had miscopied Kita as the only first person plural and Kami as second person plural***]

Duolingo seems to consistently use the formal for I (saya) but the informal for you (kamu) and he/she/it (dia). And Pimsleur uses the super-formal "you" of "Ibu", which is not even on this chart.

[***Edit: Ibu is formal feminine when you are talking to an older woman. Bapak is formal masculine when you are talking to an older man. I just got to that part in Pimsleur because I drove home on my lunch break! I think that Anda is gender-neutral formal. ***]

I accept that since the Duolingo course is in Beta, I'll need to expect errors do a decent amount of research on my own. To be honest, I always expect this of Duolingo anyway. It's always in Beta even when they say it isn't.
Last edited by Deinonysus on Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:54 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Axon » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:18 pm

Hooray, another Indonesian learner! There is an extremely modest study group here if you'd like to take a look at some of the things available besides Duolingo.

A couple of points on your (very astute) first-day comments. My first-day comments were something like "Oh, this language kind of sounds like Spanish and Thai at the same time. Neat."

Kita is an inclusive "we" while "kami" is an exclusive "we." Kita akan pergi ke mall. We (you and I) will go to the mall. Kami akan pergi ke Indomaret. We (Adrianslont and I but not you) are going to the Indomaret [a ubiquitous convenience store chain in Java]. The second person plural is "kalian."

Indonesian has a lot of pronouns, quite a few of them regional and quite a few more not really used in daily speech. I would not call "ibu" a pronoun, rather, I would say that Indonesian speakers often use words like "ibu," "bapak," "mas," and even names in place of pronouns. Apakah Axon suka makanan Indonesia? Iya, saya suka. Does Axon (you, talking to me in this case) like Indonesian food? Yes, I do. The use of "ibu" as a pronoun when addressing an older woman is not something I would call formal either, more just respectful.

"Beliau" is virtually never used in spoken Indonesian outside of formal contexts like speeches. The combination of "saya" and "kamu" is something that's also in the Indonesian Glossika course, but in ten months living in Yogyakarta I never once heard a native speaker use this combination. Either saya/Anda or aku/kamu.

It's fascinating that you say the syntax reminds you of Hebrew. To me it's a combination of Mandarin and Vietnamese syntax. Perhaps Hebrew wouldn't be that bad!
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Adrianslont » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:43 pm

Hi. I’m one of the other Indonesian learners - though I’m currently spending more energy on french. That scenario changes a couple of times a year.

Indonesian pronouns, wkwkwk (that’s Indonesian for lol) - there are so many and it’s amusing how various courses don’t tell you that! And so many versions of bapak, ibu, mas, mbak! Don’t let it put you off, though - the ones you have identified will be universally understood when you finally get there - you just have to learn to recognise the others.

On easiness - I find the vocabulary harder to learn than french by far - you don’t get the cognate discount - but the grammar is quite forgiving and the people are very forgiving, they are used to communicating across languages/dialects and generally are impressed by foreigners learning their language.

Feel free to ask any questions - though I would only rate myself B1-B2 - with a speech impediment - alveolar trills are actually pretty difficult for me.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:32 pm

Axon wrote:Hooray, another Indonesian learner! There is an extremely modest study group here if you'd like to take a look at some of the things available besides Duolingo.

A couple of points on your (very astute) first-day comments. My first-day comments were something like "Oh, this language kind of sounds like Spanish and Thai at the same time. Neat."

Kita is an inclusive "we" while "kami" is an exclusive "we." Kita akan pergi ke mall. We (you and I) will go to the mall. Kami akan pergi ke Indomaret. We (Adrianslont and I but not you) are going to the Indomaret [a ubiquitous convenience store chain in Java]. The second person plural is "kalian."

Indonesian has a lot of pronouns, quite a few of them regional and quite a few more not really used in daily speech. I would not call "ibu" a pronoun, rather, I would say that Indonesian speakers often use words like "ibu," "bapak," "mas," and even names in place of pronouns. Apakah Axon suka makanan Indonesia? Iya, saya suka. Does Axon (you, talking to me in this case) like Indonesian food? Yes, I do. The use of "ibu" as a pronoun when addressing an older woman is not something I would call formal either, more just respectful.

"Beliau" is virtually never used in spoken Indonesian outside of formal contexts like speeches. The combination of "saya" and "kamu" is something that's also in the Indonesian Glossika course, but in ten months living in Yogyakarta I never once heard a native speaker use this combination. Either saya/Anda or aku/kamu.

It's fascinating that you say the syntax reminds you of Hebrew. To me it's a combination of Mandarin and Vietnamese syntax. Perhaps Hebrew wouldn't be that bad!

Thanks, I'll take a look at the study group! Thanks for the correction on "kita", "kami", and "kalian". I have updated my post. I met "bapak" later on in my Pimsleur lesson! I'm sure it will take me a while to wrap my head around all of the pronouns.

Hebrew isn't that bad! Well, the syntax is easy, but there are complications: everything, even numbers, inflects based on gender, even the gender of the person you're talking to. And there is also noun declension and verb conjugation. And it is written without vowels. But the pronunciation also very easy!
Last edited by Deinonysus on Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Adrianslont wrote:Hi. I’m one of the other Indonesian learners - though I’m currently spending more energy on french. That scenario changes a couple of times a year.

Indonesian pronouns, wkwkwk (that’s Indonesian for lol) - there are so many and it’s amusing how various courses don’t tell you that! And so many versions of bapak, ibu, mas, mbak! Don’t let it put you off, though - the ones you have identified will be universally understood when you finally get there - you just have to learn to recognise the others.

On easiness - I find the vocabulary harder to learn than french by far - you don’t get the cognate discount - but the grammar is quite forgiving and the people are very forgiving, they are used to communicating across languages/dialects and generally are impressed by foreigners learning their language.

Feel free to ask any questions - though I would only rate myself B1-B2 - with a speech impediment - alveolar trills are actually pretty difficult for me.

Thanks! I expected the cognate difficulty, although I'm noticing at least some cognates here and there. I'm guessing that "ja" and "halo" are from Indonesia's Dutch colonial past, and I looked up "nama" (name) and it seems to be an Indo-European cognate from India (Sanskrit). I think the Japanese "namae" (name) is unrelated and just a coincidence.

Thanks for the help offer. And a speech impediment in a foreign language is just a charming accent!
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Iversen » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:05 pm

There aren't many cognates, and they may be somewhat opaque - like sabtu, jendela and gereja (Saturday, window and church) from Portuguese or "sains" from English (science - not saints). You will notice them with glee when you discover them, but don't count on them to learn the bulk of your vocabulary.

My main concern has always been that I may learn the language as it is used in newspaper or 'sains' mag articles or in Wikipedia, but then ordinary people speak in a totally different way among themselves - somewhat like the situation in French.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:17 pm

Iversen wrote:There aren't many cognates, and they may be somewhat opaque - like sabtu, jendela and gereja (Saturday, window and church) from Portuguese or "sains" from English (science - not saints). You will notice them with glee when you discover them, but don't count on them to learn the bulk of your vocabulary.

My main concern has always been that I may learn the language as it is used in newspaper or 'sains' mag articles or in Wikipedia, but then ordinary people speak in a totally different way among themselves - somewhat like the situation in French.

Interesting! I'm definitely not counting very many cognates.

I have run into a couple of more that seemed like English cognates but turned out to be from Dutch: apel (apple) and buku (book). And gaun for dress seems to be from the English gown, although I'm not sure if that's Dutch too, or maybe it's even a native austronesian word that only coincidentally is pronounced "gown".

"Dua" for "two" seems to only be a coincidental similarity to the Indo-European languages.

This article seems to confirm your fears of Indonesians not really using standard Indonesian among themselves:
BBC wrote:But in reality, things aren’t so simple. Today, standard Bahasa Indonesia, which hasn’t evolved too drastically from Malay, is rarely spoken in casual conversations. People think it’s too ‘kaku’, meaning rigid and stiff, my language teacher Andini told me after I admitted my difficulties at the roadside stall. Moreover, people sometimes find Bahasa Indonesia inadequate to express what they want. Andini confessed she often shares this frustration, wanting to use words and expressions from a sub-dialect of East Javanese spoken in her hometown.

...

It turns out that a means to linguistically unite the Indonesian nation has instead, due to the language’s simplicity and rigidity, created a new barrier that prevents communication on a deeper level – one that Indonesians circumvent by employing their own particularised speech, tailored to their specific regions, generations or social classes.

Why no-one speaks Indonesia's language
I would guess that Indonesians probably revert to a more standardized form when talking to someone from a different region, or some crazy tourist who has decided to learn their language *cough cough*.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Ani » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:49 pm

Thanks for mentioning gamelan music. I had never heard it but after listening on YT for a bit I think I'm in love :)
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Elenia » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:37 am

Deinonysus wrote:
Iversen wrote:There aren't many cognates, and they may be somewhat opaque - like sabtu, jendela and gereja (Saturday, window and church) from Portuguese or "sains" from English (science - not saints). You will notice them with glee when you discover them, but don't count on them to learn the bulk of your vocabulary.

My main concern has always been that I may learn the language as it is used in newspaper or 'sains' mag articles or in Wikipedia, but then ordinary people speak in a totally different way among themselves - somewhat like the situation in French.

Interesting! I'm definitely not counting very many cognates.

I have run into a couple of more that seemed like English cognates but turned out to be from Dutch: apel (apple) and buku (book). And gaun for dress seems to be from the English gown, although I'm not sure if that's Dutch too, or maybe it's even a native austronesian word that only coincidentally is pronounced "gown".

"Dua" for "two" seems to only be a coincidental similarity to the Indo-European languages.

This article seems to confirm your fears of Indonesians not really using standard Indonesian among themselves:
BBC wrote:But in reality, things aren’t so simple. Today, standard Bahasa Indonesia, which hasn’t evolved too drastically from Malay, is rarely spoken in casual conversations. People think it’s too ‘kaku’, meaning rigid and stiff, my language teacher Andini told me after I admitted my difficulties at the roadside stall. Moreover, people sometimes find Bahasa Indonesia inadequate to express what they want. Andini confessed she often shares this frustration, wanting to use words and expressions from a sub-dialect of East Javanese spoken in her hometown.

...

It turns out that a means to linguistically unite the Indonesian nation has instead, due to the language’s simplicity and rigidity, created a new barrier that prevents communication on a deeper level – one that Indonesians circumvent by employing their own particularised speech, tailored to their specific regions, generations or social classes.

Why no-one speaks Indonesia's language
I would guess that Indonesians probably revert to a more standardized form when talking to someone from a different region, or some crazy tourist who has decided to learn their language *cough cough*.


I don't know how useful this might be, considering I know no Indonesian, but it is one of the most well-represented languages on FictionPress.com, and I'm almost certain that there will be lots more informal, everyday language in those stories. There will probably be a lot more spelling and grammar mistakes, too, so maybe something to keep in mind for later, when you have a stronger base.
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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on French & Hebrew

Postby Adrianslont » Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:52 pm

While the bbc article is interesting and describes some real challenges/interesting features that Indonesian learners meet ie diglossia and mixing in of local dialects I am not sure about the explanation offered as to why this happened - that is I don’t think it happens because Bahasa Indonesia is overly simple or rigid and has a small vocabulary - rather I think the mixing of dialects happens because people usually learn their dialect first, are proud of and comfortable with their dialect and its idioms and because they may actually not have had much education and school is where people learn BI. Many Indonesians have not been to high school and quite a few not graduated primary school so it’s understandable that their dialect is more comfortable for them. As for colloquial language, Bahasa Gaul, it actually seems even grammatically simpler to me than BI. Of course you have to learn some extra vocabulary and alternative grammar and it is often spoken more rapidly and less clearly than standard BI.

Disclaimer: I’m not an academic and this is just my reading of it - it’s just that the bbc article seems to be heading in the direction of the common Indonesian myths ie. Indonesian is a constructed or simplified language. And i think much of this article is really looking for an explanation for that common language learning syndrome - making the transition from classroom learning to street language. Sure, dialects are part of the challenge but I don’t think it’s got anything to do with a “lacking” in BI. Axon, who has spent more time there recently than me can offer an opinion.

Additional thought: Singlish (colloquial Singaporean English) is peppered with vocabulary and grammar from Malay, Hokkien, Cantonese and other languages/dialects and I don’t think that is due to simplicity, rigidity or lack of vocabulary in English - just more to do with heritage.
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