Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

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Re: Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian. Also working on German and French

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:19 pm

Axon wrote:Lol, smurfing in a language class. Great expression.

A general question for you - how would you describe your French level and how does it impact your using a French-based Assimil? I'd like to do that but my French is almost entirely passive.

Good question! I deliberately use the terms "beginner", "intermediate", and "advanced" because since I've never taken a CEFR test, I'm reluctant to assign myself a specific grade. I guess I'm loosely trying to follow the "novice", "intermediate", and "advanced" levels of the ACTFL, which are each broken down into "low", "mid", and "high". Then above "advanced" there are also "superior" and "distinguished", which roughly correspond with C1 and C2, respectively:
CEFRILRACTFL
A10/0+NL, NM, NH
A21IL, IM
B11+IH
B22/2+AL, AM, AH
C13/3+S
C24/4+D
(NL is novice low, NM is novice mid, etc.)
That's from the Wikipedia article on the IRL scale. The source it cites is archived here

So if I had to guess, I'd say I'm somewhere along the path to B2. I'm not sure if I could pass the test right now, but if I spent a couple of months studying the test material I think I probably could.

I can definitely get by in French, especially in reading. I speak slowly but French people understand everything I say. Listening comprehension is the toughest skill for me and I've been working on that a lot. I can read through most French texts with enough understanding to get the general idea, but I will usually need a dictionary to get complete understanding. For instance, I read through Le petit prince mostly without a dictionary, but I had to guess what a lot of the simple past verbs meant from context, and there was also a lot of vocabulary that I had to either guess from the illustrations or context or just eventually look up.

My current plan is to go entirely through Assimil Using French before starting l'indonésien, to make sure my French is about as polished as I can get it in a short time-frame. I promise I'll let you and Adrianslont know how it goes! :)
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German. Wanderlusting Irish.

Postby Deinonysus » Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:04 pm

I haven't updated in a while so this is going to be a long one!

I've changed this thread's title from "Damn you Duo! Side quest: Indonesian [with a list of the languages I'm working on afterwards]" to reflect two things:
  1. Indonesian is no longer just a side quest. It turned from a quick dabble with Duolingo into a 6-month+ study commitment in the short term. Of course I'm not going to completely drop it at the end of the 6 months, but I really do want to move on to Hebrew.
  2. The list of languages I'm working on has grown. It seems like every time I eat ethnic food, I want to learn the language. You'll be shocked to hear that I had a lovely Full Irish breakfast this past weekend in a restaurant with an Irish name, Irish poetry on the walls, and even bilingual placemats with Irish, and I couldn't walk away from that without being sucked into the Irish language.
Irish
I'll start here because it's the newest development. I'm almost five years into the language learning hobby, and by now I know that I can go on little "side quests" without derailing my long-term language commitments (French and German) and my medium-term commitments (Indonesian at the moment). There's something magical about the absolute beginner phase, where you start sorting through the pronunciation and grammar and turn impenetrable gibberish into something familiar. And when novelty wears off and discipline needs to take over, I can just get back to my long-term studies.

My favorite thing about Irish spelling is that it's completely impenetrable to someone who knows the Latin alphabet but isn't familiar with the language, but once you start learning the rules it has it's own delightful internal logic, and it seems to be fairly regular, although I'm still wrapping my head around it. Here's a great video explaining the spelling rules:


The grammar is also very fun. The word order is VSO, which is a bit different from what I used to but it is commonly used to form questions in European languages, and used to be used this way in English ("have you any wool?"). The grammar and spelling are also very strongly integrated.

It's common in European languages for consonants to behave different after broad vowels (a, o, and u) and slender vowels (e and i). For example, in English, c and g have a hard sound after broad vowels (cat, gum), but make an s and j sound, respectively, after a slender vowel (cent, gent). Irish takes this a step further, and almost every consonant has a broad and a slender version. And a consonant doesn't just come after a vowel of the same type, it must be surrounded by it.

For example, the stem for "to eat" is "ith-" (with the "th" pronounced as an English "h"), and the stem for "to drink" is "ól-". Some conjugation endings are: "-im" (for first person singular), "-imid" (first person plural), and "-ann" (for third person). However, a consonant cannot touch a vowel of the wrong type, so you need to pad the endings with an extra vowel.

So: "I eat" is "ithim", but "I drink" is "ólaim" because the broad "l" can't touch "-im" directly.
"he drinks" is "ólann sé", but "he eats" is "itheann sé" because the slender "th" can't touch "-am" directly (even though the broad and slender "th" are pronounced the same).

I've been working on Duolingo Irish. Unfortunately, much of the course does not have sound, but that's okay because it forced me to learn the pronunciation rules. I'm still nowhere close to perfect, but at least I can guess how an Irish word will be pronounced when I see it.

Pimsleur has a very short (10-lesson) Irish course. My library system only has the first eight lessons, but I found a full copy for a very good price on Amazon and it'll come on Friday.

Indonesian
My Indomie noodle variety pack came last week! They are absolutely delicious. My favorite flavor so far is the original. It's the perfect mix of sweet (from the kecap manis), spicy (from the sambal), and savory (from the flavoring). I made some for my wife and she loves it too! New rule in this family: there must always be Indomie in the house. Next time I order I think I'll stick to just the classic.
20181002_171806.jpg
20181003_122117.jpg
20181003_123520.jpg

I also received my copy of Assimil l'indonésien yesterday. I read through the introduction and part of the notes on the first lesson, and I was pleasantly surprised that I could understand almost all of the French. I missed a word or two every page but it wasn't a big hindrance. This has me completely sold on getting Assimil l'hébreu when I move on to Hebrew some time next year. Henceforth, everything I buy from Assimil will be in French. They really do have a dizzying selection of languages. They have full courses for Malagasy, Yiddish, and Breton, not to mention four different classical languages including Ancient Greek. This is dangerous. Please send help.

I'm still planning on finishing the advanced course Using French before starting l'indonesien for real. It can't hurt to be as prepared as possible, right?
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German. Wanderlusting Irish.

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:11 pm

Another cool thing about Irish that I forgot to mention is that possessives work the same way they do in Hebrew. You don't say that someone has something. Instead, you say that there is something to them.

English: I have water.
Irish: Tá uisce agam. (There is water to me).
Hebrew: יש לי מים. (There is to me water).
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German. Wanderlusting Irish.

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:36 pm

I'm running into some slight dialect issues with Irish.

There are three main dialects of Irish:
800px-Gaeltachtai_le_hainmneacha2.svg.png

Standard Written Irish (An Caighdeán Oifigiúil) is mainly based on the central dialect, Connacht. The voice recordings for the Duolingo course were created by a woman who speaks the Connacht dialect, if memory serves. However, Pimsleur Irish is based on the southern dialect, Munster. Of course there is nothing "incorrect" about the Munster dialect, but there are some words that will be pronounced differently than their standard spelling.

For example, the name of the Irish language in the written standard language is "Gaelige". However, in Munster you would pronounce it "Gaeilinn", with an an "n" sound at the end instead of a "gye" sound (it's a "slender" g so it's palatalized). This is an accepted alternative spelling, but would immediately identify you with the Munster dialect.

There's also one pronunciation in Pimsleur that is confusing me:
"You understand" is "tuigeann tú", and this is exactly how it's pronounced in Pimsleur.
When you ask "do you understand?", the initial t is "eclipsed" with a d that is pronounced instead, so it becomes "an dtuigean tú?"
However, in Pimsleur, I am hearing this as something like "am biggin tú?" (ignoring Irish spelling rules). I'm not sure is this is a Munster dialect thing, a standard pronunciation, or just a weird recording.

My scope for Irish is fairly limited. I want to get through Pimsleur Irish, which should take me 2-3 weeks. I want to get reasonably far in Duolingo, maybe to the first checkpoint or a bit past it. But I'm not prepared to make the kind of time commitment where I would reach a conversational level. I just want to wrap my head around the pronunciation rules, get some very basic vocabulary and grammar, and of course know more about the language and about Ireland than I did a couple of weeks ago. When I finish, I'm planning to get back into Indonesian. However, I may not be able to help myself from getting that tempting book on Scots (focusing on the Doric dialect of the Northeast) that I mentioned a couple of weeks ago...

My Indomie habit is still under control, only around two packs a week. I've gotten my wife into it too, so lately she's been having some whenever I do.
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German. Wanderlusting Irish.

Postby Deinonysus » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:41 pm

As I could have predicted, it's pretty hard to focus on so many languages at once, plus piano practice, work, and life. I'm wishing that I could put more time into German.

Irish
I'm doing my daily Pimsleur and Duolingo. I have the goal of getting to the second checkpoint as a bit of a reach, but I think I can at least past the first checkpoint in the next couple of weeks. The lessons on Eclipsis (replacing initial consonants of words for certain grammatical reasons) and lentition (changing consonant sounds by adding an 'h' for certain grammatical reasons) are right before the first checkpoint, and I think those lessons will be crucial to getting a basic understanding of Irish grammar.

Indonesian
This is mostly on hold until I'm done with my two-week Irish binge. I'm trying to do a little Duolingo review each day to make sure I don't rust, but I'm not starting anything new until I'm done with Irish. Assimil l'indonésien can start in around two months when I finish Assimil Using French.

French
I'm mostly just sticking to doing my daily Assimil lessons (the Advanced course, plus the second wave of "With Ease"). I usually skim the headlines on lemonde.fr a couple times a day.

German
I had been trying to go through the textbook and enter the vocabulary I didn't know into Anki, but my professor uses Quizlet and I got the idea to go into the quizzes from the Beginner course last year. That should catch me up. There isn't a ton of vocabulary I don't know at all, but I am not sure of the genders for a lot of them, and if you don't know the gender you don't know the word.

I also watched a few videos from DW this morning, and I want to make that a daily thing. There was a very interesting story about an Oktoberfest celebration that popped up in Myanmar!

https://www.dw.com/en/oktoberfest-a-tas ... v-45899692
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German. Wanderlusting Irish.

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Ich muss mein Deutsch üben, deshalb werde ich versuchen, meine Posten auf Deutsch zu schreiben, und dann ins Englische zu übersetzen.

Bis jetzt habe ich mich nicht sehr wohlgefühlt, in Deutsch zu schreiben. Aber, mein Deutschkurs hilft mir sehr, und jetzt will ich viel mehr auf Deutsch schreiben.

Es gibt einen kleinen Skandal. Der Professor hat ein Paar klasse vermisst (nicht meine Klasse, aber die für Anfänger), und er spricht gern über kontroverse Themen. Einige Studenten haben geklagt und es ist möglich, dass er hier nicht länger lehren wird. Und es gibt wenige Studenten in die Klassen, also es ist auch möglich, dass es nicht mehr Deutschkurse beim Universität geben wird.

Nach dem Deutschkurs, der ich jetzt mache, gibt es noch zwei Kurse: intermediär II, und fortgeschritten. Ich erwäge machen die beiden, falls das deutsche Programm beendet. Ich würde viele Zeit verbringen und könnte wahrscheinlich nicht mehr Klavierlektionen machen, aber ich kann diese Gelegenheit nicht vermissen.

English Translation wrote:I need to practice my German, so I will try to write my posts in German, and then translate them into English.

Until now I didn’t feel very comfortable writing in German. But, my German class is helping me very much, and now I want to write much more in German.

There is a small scandal. The professor missed a couple of classes (not my class, but the one for beginners), and he likes to talk about controversial subjects. Some students complained, and it is possible that he will no longer be teaching here anymore. And there are few students in the classes, so it is also possible that there will be no more German classes at the college.

After the German class I’m taking now, there are two more classes: intermediate II, and advanced. I am considering taking both in case the German program ends. I would spend a lot of time and probably couldn’t take piano lessons anymore, but I can’t miss this opportunity.
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:53 pm

Seit lange Zeit habe ich in dieses Log nicht geschrieben! Das ist wegen meiner Entscheidung, nur auf Deutsch bei diesem Log zu schreiben, und dann ins Englisch zu übersetzen. Es ist nicht einfach für mich, und ich muss viel einfacher als normalerweise schreiben. Aber, ich erwäge, ein C1 Examen nächstes Jahr zu versuchen. Und so brauche ich viele Übung, denn ich glaube nicht, dass ich eben noch B2 bin.

Letzte Woche habe ich entschieden, Irische nicht mehr zu lernen, und Indonesisch noch einmal zu lernen. Das war genug für meine Neugier, und ich hatte Indonesisch viel vermisst.

Ich habe Pimsleur fast beendet. Es gibt nur sechs mehr Lektionen. Und ich habe den zweiten Kontrollpunkt in Duolingo erreicht, so jetzt habe ich ungefähr ein Drittel des Kurses gemacht. Assimil Indonesisch habe ich noch nicht beginnt, denn ich mache noch Using French. Ich soll Using French im Januar beenden.

Ich habe noch ein Buch über Indonesisch gekauft: Bahasa Indonesia Book 1 von Yohanni Johns. Es ist viel großer als ich erwartet habe. Es gibt achtzehn Kapiteln, und dies ist nur Buch eins von zwei! Das Format ist ganz anders von Assimil. Jedes Kapitel beginnt mit einem Wortschatz, und dann ein Dialog. Danach gibt es viele Übungen.

English Translation wrote:It has been a long time since I wrote in this log! That is because of my decision to only write in German in this log, and then to translate into English. It is not easy for me, and I need to write much more simply than I normally would. But, I am considering attempting a C1 exam next year. So I need a lot of practice, because I don't think that I'm even B2 yet.

Last week I decided to no longer study Irish, and to study Indonesian again. That was enough for my curiosity, and I had greatly missed Indonesian.

I have almost finished Pimsleur. There are only six more lessons. And I have reached the second checkpoint in Duolingo, so now I have done around a third of the course. I haven't begun Assimil Indonesian yet, because I am still doing Using French. I should finish Using French in January.

I bought another book about Indonesian: Bahasa Indonesia Book 1 by Yohanni Jonhs. It is much bigger than I expected. There are eighteen chapters, and this is just book one of two! The format is completely different from Assimil. Each chapter begins with a vocabulary section, and then a diolog. After that there are many exercises.
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

Postby SGP » Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:00 am

Deinonysus wrote:Letzte Woche habe ich entschieden, Irische nicht mehr zu lernen, und Indonesisch noch einmal zu lernen. Das war genug für meine Neugier, und ich hatte Indonesisch viel vermisst.

Ich habe Pimsleur fast beendet. Es gibt nur sechs mehr Lektionen.


Hier würde mich interessieren, ob du den Pimsleur-Kurs auch manchmal wiederholt hast. Oder ob es so war, dass du es dir einfach einmal angehört hast, und danach konntest du dich an vieles (oder sogar alles) erinnern.

["Der Kurs" and "es angehört", because it isn't directly referring to the course, but only to the idea that has been mentioned.]
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:03 pm

SGP wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:Letzte Woche habe ich entschieden, Irische nicht mehr zu lernen, und Indonesisch noch einmal zu lernen. Das war genug für meine Neugier, und ich hatte Indonesisch viel vermisst.

Ich habe Pimsleur fast beendet. Es gibt nur sechs mehr Lektionen.


Hier würde mich interessieren, ob du den Pimsleur-Kurs auch manchmal wiederholt hast. Oder ob es so war, dass du es dir einfach einmal angehört hast, und danach konntest du dich an vieles (oder sogar alles) erinnern.

["Der Kurs" and "es angehört", because it isn't directly referring to the course, but only to the idea that has been mentioned.]
Es kommt darauf an, welche Sprache ich lerne. Meistens muss ich eine Lektion nicht wiederholen. Pimsleur benutzt spaced Repetition und eine Pimsleur Lektion hat nur fünf oder zehn neue Wörter. Pimsleurs Ziel ist nicht dass man viele Vokabeln lernt, aber dass man wenige Vokabeln sehr gut benützen kann.

Aber, als ich die Japanisch und Koreanisch Pimsleur-Kurse gemacht habe, musste ich viele Lektionen wiederholen. Die Sprache war sehr formal und die Syntax war mir schwer.
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Re: Saya suka Indomie: Learning Indonesian. Also working on French & German.

Postby SGP » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:32 pm

Deinonysus wrote:Es kommt darauf an, welche Sprache ich lerne. Meistens muss ich eine Lektion nicht wiederholen. Pimsleur benutzt spaced Repetition und eine Pimsleur Lektion hat nur fünf oder zehn neue Wörter. Pimsleurs Ziel ist nicht dass man viele Vokabeln lernt, aber dass man wenige Vokabeln sehr gut benützen kann.


Wenn es eine Sprache ist, mit der du schon einigermaßen vertraut bist, dann prägt es sich natürlich leichter ein, ja. Oder auch dann, wenn sie deiner Muttersprache einfach einigermaßen ähnelt.

Deinonysus wrote:Aber, als ich die Japanisch und Koreanisch Pimsleur-Kurse gemacht habe, musste ich viele Lektionen wiederholen. Die Sprache war sehr formal und die Syntax war mir schwer.


Das ist nachvollziehbar. Japanisch und Koreanisch unterscheiden sich schon ziemlich stark von unseren Sprachen. Bei Nihongo (möglicherweise genauso beim Koreanischen) kommt auch noch dazu, dass es gar nicht wirklich eine einzige Sprache ist, aus einer bestimmten Perspektive betrachtet. Sondern mehrere. Was meine ich damit? Keigo. Die japanische Vorstellung von Höflichkeit. Manchmal fühlt es sich für mich wirklich wie mehrere verschiedene Sprachen innerhalb einer einzigen Kategorie an, weil die jeweilige Wortwahl doch wirklich sehr, sehr unterschiedlich ist.

P.S.: Wegen meiner PM vor kurzem... Also ich möchte jetzt in diesem Thread nicht unbedingt "öffentlich" erwähnen, was das Thema von ihr war. Weil ja jede PM genaugenommen eine personal message ist. Aber nur so viel: du bist mit dem Deutschen schon weiter, als ich gedacht habe. Deshalb kannst du, wenn du möchtest, genauso auch auf Deutsch antworten (also nicht nur auf entweder Englisch oder Französisch).

P.P.S.: Und ich möchte jetzt wirklich nicht (n-i-c-h-t) den Eindruck machen, dass es mir ein Anliegen ist, dass du unbedingt so schnell wie möglich antwortest oder irgendetwas in diese Richtung. Manches braucht ganz einfach seine Zeit. Es ist überhaupt nicht nötig, jetzt auch nur kurz etwas dazu zu sagen wie z.B. dass du in letzter Zeit ziemlich beschäftigt warst oder so. (Wie sonst auch sage ich das nicht aus falscher Höflichkeit heraus, sondern weil ich es genauso meine, wie es da steht). Ich hatte nur ein einziges Mal bei einer Handvoll Leute nachgefragt, ob meine PM überhaupt angekommen ist. Und zwar, weil damals (bzw. vor relativ kurzer Zeit) das Forum down war. Deshalb wusste ich nicht einmal, ob diese Nachrichten überhaupt zugestellt wurden, oder ob es ein Problem wegen einem möglichem Datenverlust (loss of data) gegeben hatte. Das war alles.
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