Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

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StringerBell
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby StringerBell » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:57 pm

I decided to return to a Polish translation of my favorite novel. I started reading it a few months ago, but I was a little overwhelmed and decided to put it on the back burner for a bit until my skills increased. I own the digital file (ebook) and also the audiobook. Months ago I'd gotten through the first 3 chapters using my color-coding technique, so now that I returned to it after a 3 month break, I started R+L from the first chapter and it was easy to get back into it since I had a color-coded translation waiting for me.

This time around, it's still a challenge but it feels more doable. I'm recognizing a lot more words and the case endings and verbs of motions are feeling familiar and less frustrating. I think this is a result of my grammar treasure hunts, which I've been spending A LOT of time on lately. This activity has really helped me to notice patterns, something I kind of sucked at before I made a conscious effort to look for them. Now I'm seeing them everywhere, and the more I see them, the more it's becoming ingrained in my brain which endings go with which prepositions or which pronouns match up with specific verbs. Something is starting to click. I don't even need to try to memorize anything; the repeated exposure to something I'm specifically looking for is burning it into my brain naturally. Still a long way to go, but for the first time I'm starting to feel more confident about Polish grammar.

Even though I don't use Clozemaster for the games and flashcards, it does have an unbelievably detailed explanation of Polish grammar that I'm now after 700+ hours of exposure starting to use. (I did a few months ago use the verbs of motion breakdown, which really helped a lot)
https://www.clozemaster.com/blog/polish ... ive-verbs/
https://www.clozemaster.com/blog/polish ... of-motion/

Almost from day 1 I've been really confused about "swoje" vs. "moje" since it appeared that they both meant "my" but then "swoje" can also mean his, hers, theirs...and seemed to be used interchangeably. I decided to ignore it at the time, even though every time "swoje" (or the variations) pop up, I was always wondering, "now what's that doing there?".

Last night I read through the CZM explanation and a lightbulb went off. The explanation made so much sense, and I feel like I'm not fumbling in the dark anymore (when it comes to pronouns, at least). Now that I know when to expect "swoje" I will be specifically paying attention the context when it does appear so I can reinforce in my mind when it makes sense to use that form vs. "moje". If I'd started off with the grammar explanation, I would have been so frustrated and confused and overwhelmed that it would have been counterproductive.
https://www.clozemaster.com/blog/polish ... -pronouns/
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StringerBell
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby StringerBell » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:42 pm

I've decided to do some minimal targeted improvement in Italian. I'm very well aware of what I need to improve, so I've decided that I will very slowly address those things in a stress-free way. Here's how I'm planning to do this:

-One area I need to work on is knowing which (if any) preposition is used when combining two verbs (one as an infinitive). I know some, but many I don't, and it's a constant source of frustration for me. For example:

Ho imparato a guidare l'anno scorso.
Ho deciso di andare in città.
Posso cucinare la cena oggi.

I found a pretty helpful list of which verbs take which prepositions:
https://www.thoughtco.com/italian-verbs ... ns-2011671

Each day, I pick one verb and I just practice saying a few sentences with it and the appropriate preposition. I can stick with the same verb for more than one day...my goal is to not move on to a new verb combo until I automatically know the previous one.

Using this new method, in the last week I think I've got down:
-imparare a
-insegnare a
-auitare a

There's no stress to master a certain number of verbs in any timeframe, I just do this when I'm in the mood and have a few minutes. So far I'm liking this strategy.
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StringerBell
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby StringerBell » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:19 pm

I had a really bad couple of days this week. I have some chronic health problems that flare up periodically, and when they do, I not only feel physically like garbage, but I think neurotransmitters go haywire and my mood is in the toilet. However, I'm used to this, I know how to deal with it, and I know it won't last forever. During this little "episode" I got into a really foul mood about Polish. To be honest, I'm surprised it hasn't happened before this point, and knowing to expect this, I'd put in place some things to deal with this, which ended up helping a lot.

#1 my commitment to reaching 1,100 hours in one year. I decided that no matter how disillusioned or inadequate I might feel at any given point, abandoning this goal was non-negotiable. So, I pushed through, got my hours in, and after a few days I'm feeling much more positive.

#2 Instead of accepting the irrational voices telling me that I suck and will never be a proficient speaker of this language, I decided to do an honest evaluation of my effort and my progress. And it turns out, I have a lot to be proud of, and I've decided to post about what I'm proud of so that I can re-read this if necessary as a reminder.

What I'm proud of:

-I committed to learning a really challenging language. I am not skilled at learning languages. In fact, I've had a lifetime of failure as a language learner, so deciding to do this is a really big deal for me.

-I have been consistently putting in the hours as pledged, without fail. Even when I felt like garbage or had travel plans that prevented me from sticking to my schedule, I made up those hours in the following weeks and rather than falling behind, I'm actually ~20 hours ahead of where I need to be.

-Even when it feels like I haven't made as much progress as I think I should have (based on...nothing???) I actually can understand a lot.

-Even though I've done very little conversation practice (at this point ~4 hours worth), I have had several 40-60 minute discussions with my mom 100% in Polish. Despite my many errors, she understood everything I said, and I understand everything she said. I could have never done that 10 months ago.

-When visiting my grandmother, she had the TV on to watch news in Polish. I was convinced I wouldn't be able to understand anything, that it would be spoken too fast, or the vocab would be too advanced for me. Instead, I followed the whole 30 minute show, with very few gaps in understanding.

-When my routine starts to feel boring in any way, I change it. I'm always trying something new, I'm always on the look-out for new strategies and ideas. I refuse to get stuck in a rut.

-Instead of stressing myself using grammar books, I'm reverse-engineering (ok, not exactly, but it feels like it) grammar concepts so that I'm the one discovering what the patterns and rules are. I've found a way to make grammar feel fun. I may not be able to do this forever, but it's working for now. When I decide to hit the books for some grammar rules, it will be when I'm ready for it, when I've already mastered a lot my own way and I just need to patch up some holes. As far as I know, no book or program teaches what I'm doing.

What I need to remember:

-Stop comparing myself to other people. I have limitations they don't. I have different goals, different strengths and weaknesses, and different life experiences. So what if I learn slower than someone else? Completely irrelevant. I need to compare myself only to myself. Have I improved from where I was 6 months or 1 year ago? Yes? Great! That's all I need to know. I'm not competing against other people, I'm only competing against myself.
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Elenia
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby Elenia » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:50 pm

Well done for keeping at it! That's the key to progress :D you'll definitely get there!
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby Cavesa » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:18 pm

You are absolutely awesome!

I mean it. Sticking to it and putting the hours regularly in, that is the hardest thing about language learning in my opinion. I struggle with it all the time. It's the main thing keeping me from progress. And here you are, showing it is possible.

You manage to do that despite less than ideal conditions, in spite of your health.

Of course the results are bound to show, some of your experience is already very clear (like the Polish tv). If you keep going like this, I have no doubts you'll reach all your goals at some point. :-)
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StringerBell
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby StringerBell » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:24 pm

I wanted to post something fun. This song was in the Top 10 in Italy last summer. It's really catchy (even if you don't know Italian). What's super cool is that the video has subtitles embedded, so it was really easy to follow along. It's called "The Selfie Army" and it's basically making fun of people who are obsessively attached to smartphones/social media and can't handle doing anything in real life, and only have contact with people in the form of liking posts.

There are lyrics that essentially mean "when I brought you to the park, you told me to bring you to the city because there was no internet signal and you lost your mind."

I learned some cool stuff from it:

Hai presente...? = Do you know...?

Perche lì non c'è campo = Because there wasn't cell reception/signal/internet coverage there

Tu mi manchi = I miss you (I think it's literally: you are missed by me) -> a really awkward construction for me that was burned into my brain with this song.

Carta, forbice, o sasso = rocks, paper, scissors

(there's ~30 seconds until the song kicks in)
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shandra
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby shandra » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:07 pm

I remember that song! It's really catchy! :D
The singers are Arisa and Lorenzo Fragola.

In this video Lorenzo plays the cameraman.

The male singer is played by Francesco Mandelli, an actor famous for the sitcom I soliti idioti.

The show is made of sketches with memorable recurring characters.

It is inspired from the British show Little Britain (maybe you know it), so it is not for everyone, because although surreal and mirror of our modern society, it is always really politically not-correct.

For the content (a very constestualized critic of vices and bad habits of the modern Italian society), and the language full of slang and implicit meaning, I soliti idioti is for C2 learner.

You can find some sketches on YouTube.
To understand the context, reading the list of characters on Wikipedia could be useful.

Bye!
Last edited by shandra on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby MattNeilsen » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:10 pm

Hi StringerBell,

Just jumping in to say that I enjoy your log and am encouraged by your story. I've had an informal goal of 1100 hours in my TL as well, and your log helped me realize that I need to add that goal to my signature so I don't lose sight of it. Thanks, and keep it up!

-Matt
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Bex
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby Bex » Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:54 pm

StringerBell wrote:The first 9 of those years I was in a crappy cycle of trying to learn some Italian, making a little progress, then getting frustrated and giving up until the next year when it was time to go to Italy to visit family. Learn a little more, forget it all again, repeat. Add in a huge dose of feeling incompetent and truly believing I was incapable of learning a foreign language

I could have written this myself...I think I am finally coming to the conclusion that this is the way for me to go as well.

It is very inspiring for me to read your log a year (or more) into your CI journey and it makes me believe I may at last be heading in the right direction.

If you've read my log....any top tips or things you might do differently now?
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StringerBell
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Re: Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

Postby StringerBell » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:39 pm

Bex wrote:If you've read my log....any top tips or things you might do differently now?


I have read your log (though not all of it, so hopefully I'm not suggesting stuff you've already tried).

I think you have a great plan of attack. I know you've said that you are not yet at a point where you enjoy reading. I am only now starting to get to the "enjoying reading" stage with Italian. Early on, I started out combining books with the matching audiobook. This really helped a lot. I still had to stop a lot, look things up, ask about things, but the audiobook removed the stress of trying to figure out how to pronounce things; it felt more like I was along for the ride. Then, at some point I got the English version of the books I was reading, so I'd read a chapter in English, then L+R to that same chapter in Italian. It removed a lot of the cognitve load of trying to get a grip on what was going on and made it more enjoyable. Have you ever tried something like that?

Another thing I would suggest is to prioritize reading shorter stuff like informal articles vs. books. The benefits of this are:

(1) They are shorter, so there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and finishing an article gives a sense of accomplishment as opposed to a never-ending book,

(2) The language tends to be more straight-forward and more practical, they tend to be written more like how people speak rather than books, which use a lot of literary language. I’m noticing that a lot of vocab and expressions I’m learning from articles are popping up in podcasts.

If you have a hard time finding a good source of articles on topics you’re interested in, you can try searching the Spanish WikiHow for How--To articles on something you are interested in or already know how to do (like how to get rid of a wasp nest, how to light a fire, how to train a dog, etc...). Even reading through twitter feeds, instagram posts, etc… is really useful because people tend to write those the way they speak. After reading this kind of stuff for a while, I think the books will become a lot easier.

When I first started reading articles, it was really challenging and it would take me a good hour to get through one. After a few weeks of reading these daily I can now blow through one in about 10 minutes, even with stopping to look up + copy+paste the occasional new expression into my list. So there is a real sense that I’ve made measurable improvements.
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