Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

[cjareck]

Płynąć (swim) imperfective: repeated, ongoing action
popłynąć: perfective
płynąć: "Generally used to imply movement, while pływać refers to interacting with a body of a liquid." (Wikip). Translations: swim, flow, sail...

Płynąć, pływać and popłynąć are three different verbs. The last one is "dokonany" in Polish or perfective in English and as such may not be used in present tense. But you will hear it not only in the past. Also in Future: "Popłynę kiedyś do Anglii" - since you plan to complete it. You could say "Będę płynąć do Anglii", but it would be used only to stress the action itself and not reaching the destination. If you say "Będę pływać do Anglii", then the speaker would probably presume that you will become a member of a crew of a ship which regularly sails to England or something similar, since you plan to do it many times.

[StringerBell]

ITALIAN:

I think I mentioned a few posts ago that I did the C1 reading and listening test for Italian in the comfort of my bedroom (which I fully acknowledge does not replicate the stress of testing conditions) and scored 80% on all the parts, which signaled to me that perhaps my listening and reading actually could be at that level, though I felt a little resistant accepting that my comprehension could be on that level. I don't know why, since 6 months ago when friends visited from Italy, we spent a week speaking almost totally in Italian and I didn't need anything translated, so logically I don't think it's that far-fetched.

In the past week I've come to the realization that I am consuming native content (podcasts, articles, TV shows/movies) in Italian with no subtitles or transcripts and I'm not having any problems with comprehension, even when listening to something like Scientificast which is an Italian podcast series about science topics. In fact, I often am not really cognizant of the fact that I'm listening in another language. I don't know why but I found this realization kind of startling. It was like one moment I went from thinking, "hey, my comprehension really has gotten pretty good lately, I can tell that I've made improvements but I still have a long way to go," to "I can listen or read to whatever I want at this point with no problem." I'm still learning new words and expressions every day, but I expect that to continue...forever, really.

I have been speaking 30-60 minutes almost every day in the past 2 weeks, my calendar on the fridge is working After speaking to my in-laws for about 45 minutes today, my husband said that I seemed to be speaking faster and with fewer mistakes (though there definitely were plenty) and he asked how I felt about my speaking abilities at this point. I said that as opposed to weeks ago where saying wrong stuff was difficult, it feels much easier to say wrong stuff now. According to him, there is a noticeable improvement now that I'm speaking more consistently - I will take his word for that since it's really hard to evaluate myself. I think I tend to focus on things like getting stuck on a verb tense or knowing that I should use congiuntivo in a situation but don't know what the form of the verb should be and ignore things like the fact that I'm able to talk about pretty much any topic.

So, this has reinforced my commitment to speaking on a regular basis. I would still like to do some writing, but still blocked on that for now.

POLISH:

I started reading Dzieci z Bullerbyn and I am having so much fun with it! At first I was apprehensive about reading a children's book...but so far there is a lot of humor, and the fact that there are very few unknown words (compared to the novel I intermittently struggle through) is making me feel like I *actually* am starting to get a grip on this language. I am also listening to the audiobook. I really dislike the woman's voice on the audiobook, which is unfortunate, but I'm trying to ignore that. I'm finding that after I read through the text of the chapter, I can listen to the audiobook even without the text (while I'm cooking or washing dishes) and I understand everything without problem. It's a nice way to change up my routine and a good reminder that I am making slow and steady improvements.

I have been collecting a list of Polish questions, which will probably appear in my next post.

[cjareck]

I have been collecting a list of Polish questions, which will probably appear in my next post.

Do not hesitate to ask! I will gladly help if only my limited grammar knowledge allow me to do it

[StringerBell]

Do not hesitate to ask! I will gladly help if only my limited grammar knowledge allow me to do it

It took me a little while to get myself organized since I had questions written down all over the place. If you are able to answer any of these, I will be very grateful!

QUESTION 1
#1: Znalazł wiele ciekawych skał.
#2: Zapakował skały do plecaka.

Why are these words different? It seems to me that they are both plural (rocks) and both direct objects?
#1 He found many interesting rocks
#2 He packed rocks into the backpack.

QUESTION 2
“bym wiedział” = “wiedziałbym” = “gdybym wiedział”
Do these all mean the same thing? If so, is one of them more common than the others?

QUESTION 3
Jestem ciekaw and Jestem ciekawy
It seems to me these are used interchangeably. Is there any difference/does it matter which one is used?

QUESTION 3
Czasem and Czasami
It seems to me these are used interchangeably. Is there any difference/does it matter which one is used?

QUESTION 4
It seems to me that: wówczas = wtedy. Is this right, and if so, is wówczas old-fashioned? The only place I have seen it is in Dzieci z Bullerbyn.

QUESTION 5
Does zaś mean on the other hand? Are there multiple meanings because this doesn’t seem to work for all the situations where it’s used:
-Mama zaś wyczarowała z gałganków dywaniki w czerwone, żółte, zielone i czarne paski.
-Ja zaś pobiegłam do pokoju chłopców i zabrałam swoje lalki.
-Najpierw rozłożyłam tam czerwoną szmatkę jako dywanik, a potem wstawiłam moje małe, śliczne mebelki, które dostałam na Gwiazdkę od babci, i w końcu zaś małe laleczki w łóżeczkach.
-Ja zaś odpisywałam: „Mój smok też jest okropny. Gryzie mnie, gdy próbuję wyjść.
-Teraz zaś znalazłam jajek za całe pięćdziesiąt pięć öre.

VERBS OF MOTION questions:

It seems to me that there are several words that are synonyms. My question is: are these interchangeable (they mean the same thing and it doesn’t matter which one you use) or is there a small difference in meaning which means you can’t use them interchangeably?

QUESTION 6
odejść - wyjść
Do these two sentences have the same meaning:
-Wsiadł do samochodu i odjechał.
-Wsiadł do samochodu i wyjechał.

QUESTION 7
pojść - podejść

I saw this sentence:
-Grupa byłych uczniów poszła odwiedzić swojego dawnego profesora.
Could it be written like this and have the same meaning:
-Grupa byłych uczniów podeszła odwiedzić swojego dawnego profesora.

QUESTION 8
Are the verbs podejść/podjechać/podchodzić/podjeżdżać interchangeable with zbliżyć?

*I'm sure there's more, but this is enough for now

[cjareck]

1. You need to declinate the noun. In the first case, it is "dopełniacz" case - answers the question "kogo? czego?" In the second you have "biernik" - "kogo? co?". But I am not sure at first I thought that in the first sentence is also "biernik".
Why is this I can not tell, unfortunately.

2 "bym wiedział" - is extremely seldom. They do not mean the same thing.
wiedziałbym = "If I studied more, I would know that thing"
Gdybym uczył się więcej, wiedziałbym to.
gdybym wiedział - "If I would know that, I would not go there"
Gdym to wiedział, nie poszedł bym tam.
I am not sure if my English is good enough to explain it.

3. Yes, they are interchangeable. However, one may be incorrect, but they are equally used.
3a (you have two questions numbered 3 ) - there is no obvious difference between them

4 wówczas = wtedy, but I would not say that it is old-fashioned. I use it quite often in formal texts.

5 zaś = natomiast = while / on the other hand - depending on the context. On the other hand is "z drugiej strony" or "z drugiej zaś strony" or "natomiast z drugiej strony"

6 - odejść =/= wyjść
odejść may mean to die:
On odszedł w zeszlym roku
may mean to break from relationship:
Po dwóch latach odeszła od niego
Or simply to walk away
While "wyjść" means to exit:
Wyszedł z kina w trakcie seansu

So your sentences do not mean the same thing (besides you used wyjechać not wyjść) - in the first case you say that he just get into the car and drove away - to work, shop or whatever. But it is completely normal and he is going to come back soon. In the second sentence, however, you are pointing out that his absence will be longer or even he is not going to return. He could go for a trip, holidays etc.

7 - no. In first one it means "they went" and "they approached" in the second one. By the way, the second one makes no sense - it could be "Grupa byłych uczniów podeszła do swojego dawnego profesora"

8 - only with some loss of information - "podejść" is to approach on foot, while "podjechać" is to approach with some vehicle (bike, car)
but "zbliżyć" has also a counterpart "zbliżać" (like present simple) so:
podejść/podjechać - zbliżyć
podchodzić/podjeżdżać - zbliżać
But "zbliżyć" is a dangerous verb. "Doszło międzynimi do zbliżenia" means that the had sex (in this sentence it is not a verb but a noun derived from a verb - verbal noun)

Hope this will help you at least a little

(edit)
I would propose to change from "skały" to "kamienie" in the first question. "Skała" is big, even as big as a mountain.
Znalazł wiele ciekawych kamieni
Zapakował kamienie do plecaka

[StringerBell]

First things first: Thank you, cjareck!

ITALIAN:
It's official: I'm in a funk It started yesterday and really hit me out of the blue. I started my daily Italian speaking practice and had to quit after 2 minutes because I was in such a foul mood. I honestly think this is purely brain chemicals going crazy, so I'm going to not take it seriously and just ride it out. I'm sure things will improve with some time and patience. At first I thought it was the same reoccurring thing that I tend to get with Italian (usually when I start feeling like I'm not meeting my expectations of how well I should be doing) owing to my long and difficult relationship with Italian.

What's frustrating is that I did 3 hours of Italian speaking practice the other day and was really excited that I would surpass my 5 hour goal for the week (I upped the ante from 0.5 hrs/day to 5 hours per week for my speaking challenge). Then last night I felt incapable of speaking at all. It was like every doubt and negative thought highjacked my brain and shut it all down. I'm making the same mistakes I always make, I'm never going to get better than this, blah blah blah. When I think about it objectively, I know this stuff is all nonsense, but it feels so overwhelming at the moment that rational or not, these thoughts are too powerful to vanquish. So, while I wait for them to subside, I'm going to try to minimize how much importance I give to them, and continue to remind myself that:

1) I am getting better, it just happens so slowly that it's hard to realize.

2) So what if I never know which of the 1,000 past tenses in Italian I'm supposed to use? People understand what I'm trying to say, so who cares? (well, I do, but I shouldn't...)

3) I have spent like 1,000 hours at this point on Italian, and most of those hours were listening. Therefore, I have good listening comprehension. But I only spent like 100 hours speaking, so I can't expect to be as good at that skill. If I still suck after 1,000 hours of speaking, then maybe those doubts and negative thoughts will have some weight.

POLISH:
Apparently the crappy outlook has spread to Polish, too, because after the first 2 hours, I felt like I couldn’t bring myself to continue, which is how I know it was probably a general neurotransmitter hurricane. I entertained the idea of just stopping after 2 hours, but I really didn’t want to give in to it, so for the last hour I did something different, which was to start reading Luca Lampariello’s book Jak Uczyć Się Języków. I’m not using my usual color-coding parallel text strategy for this book, I’m just reading it on my kindle and then periodically looking up words in Reverso Context. I only look up 1-3 words per page, which feels doable. I think this book is an easier read for me because I’m familiar with the topic and with the author (I've seen many videos on YT), and it’s written in a straightfoward and informal way (the beginning is a Q&A fomat). I was expecting to fight my way through it, but it’s surprising to me how manageable it is.

So, for now, it’s keep my head down, get in my hours, and wait for this funk to blow over.

[StringerBell]

Italian:

Ok, so I've been back in the game for a few days now. That blitzkrieg depression blew over after only 2 days. Interestingly, my husband said that my speaking is much better when I'm not focused on trying to say things the right way, so I decided to just say whatever came to mind without thinking about whether it was right or not, and I think I had one of the best conversations in Italian I've ever had. So I've made the decision that for this year, I will do my 250 hour speaking challenge without worrying about how well I'm doing. I will not make any assessments until I've finished the challenge. Once I'm done, then I will be allowed to judge myself as harshly as I want

I've been flirting with the idea of buying a used copy of Italian Demystified for about $8. Part of me is thinking that since I never formally "studied" any grammar, maybe I should at least flip through some kind of course book. I keep waffling between "it's a great way to fill in some gaps" and "that's a total waste of time, keep doing what I'm doing". Who will prevail? Tune into the next episode to find out.

Polish:

Not much to report. I skipped a day because I was feeling pretty crappy and I felt so guilty about it...I have an excess of ~30 hours at this point, so it's not even like I'm in danger of not completing my challenge, but at this point doing Polish every day is such a strong habit that I really feel weird skipping a day. I even did an extra hour today, which made me feel better.

In other news, I decided to give Anki another try. I have a love-hate (mostly hate) relationship with flashcards and language learning, but I've decided to try using it in a very limited capacity to improve my recall of words/phrases/sentences that I've come across repeatedly and understand but often can't recall during a conversation. I think I mentioned doing this before, but after doing it for a few weeks, I reinstalled the OS on my computer and lost everything I had in Anki (which interestingly didn't really bother me at all) and I kind of gave up on it for a while.

In this limited scope there is a potential for it to be useful for me, so let's see what kind of results I get...if I can manage to use some of those words and phrases in my next conversation, then I will feel more inclined to continue with it (because recalling cards during Anki reviews doesn't matter to me, what matters is my ability to use those words in genuine conversations).

I also had the idea to choose ahead of time 1 or 2 phrases that I'd like to use more automatically, tell my conversation partner about them at the beginning of the call, and then make a point of specifically using those phrases a few times during the conversation to see if I can use them properly.

[StringerBell]

I wanted to share something cool I stumbled upon. I was having a really hard time finding any books in Italian or Polish on the U.S. Amazon site, and even a few times when I did find something, often when I searched by title later on it wouldn't show up in the search results anymore. So I ditched Amazon and ordered my Polish books + audiobooks from Empik.

Then I came across this strategy which yielded some better results. It's pretty basic, maybe other people have already figured this out and I'm the only one late to the party. This works well at least in the U.S.:

1) I choose either the kindle or the books category, depending on whether I'm looking for a physical or digital copy.

2) I type either "Italian Edition" or "Polish Edition" in the search field. If I'm looking for a specific book, I'll also include the author's name in the search but not the book title.

3) If I sort by price low to high, all the free and cheap options appear first. Doing this, I found 4 Polish bilingual text children's books for free, and I found not only a bunch of free Italian books, but also translations of books I wanted to read in Italian but was convinced Amazon didn't have them.

When I used this strategy to search physical books, I was able to find an Italian translation of a non-fiction book I loved (and highly recommend) called "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain, aka: "Quiet. Il potere degli introversi in un mondo che non sa smettere di parlare". It was used but in excellent condition and shipped from the UK for $6. After I ordered it, there were no more copies left, so if you happen to find a great price on a used copy, you have to jump on it. Great thing about Italian non-fiction is that I don't have to deal with narration exclusively in my arch-enemy, Passato Remoto!

I also found a physical copy of an Italian translation of "The Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver, one of the few modern authors I really love for $6, also used. I couldn't pass it up, even though I probably won't get to it for a while.

[MattNeilsen]

That's a really smart idea - I hadn't thought about that. I just tried it with Hebrew but unfortunately wasn't able to find much. Everything is so expensive in Hebrew (e.g. Harry Potter books are ~$40-50 each at a minimum).

However, perhaps my Amazon-fu isn't up to snuff - I'll definitely try this again down the road.

[StringerBell]

That's a really smart idea - I hadn't thought about that. I just tried it with Hebrew but unfortunately wasn't able to find much. Everything is so expensive in Hebrew (e.g. Harry Potter books are ~$40-50 each at a minimum).

I've noticed that even in the last few weeks AMZ seems to have increased the offer of foreign language books on the U.S. market, so it might be that in the coming weeks/months there will start to be some Hebrew material. Is there an Israeli version of the site?


POLISH:

I'm about 1/4 way through Dzieci z Bullerbyn. It's a lot of fun, I'm still enjoying it. I also read one of the children's ebooks I got for free on the AMZ site. It was easy as pie, though there were a couple of new words, so I can't raise my head too high. It's something I probably should have started out with many months ago, but the benefit of reading it now was that I could breeze through it in a few minutes and say: I can read as well as a 7 year old! Well, actually, I bet 7 year old children in Poland have a better accent than I do and also have a much better command of the words they do know... (head lowers a little more).

As I alluded to in an earlier post, I have recently restarted some Anki drills. I'm using words/phrases/sentences I've mined from my reading that I either find particularly useful, or I know receptively but can't produce when speaking. My main issue is how much time I end up devoting to these drills. I'm unclear if they are worth the time suck or not. It doesn't feel like I'm adding an excessive amount of cards daily, yet it took me 45 minutes to get through my review today.

However, I am saying the words on the cards out loud, including all the sample sentences I've added (which I do for every card). I'm treating this as a simultaneous memory practice and pronunciation practice. Maybe that's how everybody does Anki and I should have known that to begin with? Compared to how I was doing Anki initially (going through the cards silently) this is working much better. I also think saying all the words out loud is better for my memory. When I don't get words/phrases correct, I say them out loud 5-10 times. I also don't let myself move away from the deck until I've come up with the right answer for each card at least once that session. I will say more about Anki later.

OH! I think I learned something kind of fun. In English, when we're trying to figure out where something is hidden, we say, "You're hot/getting hotter" or "You're cold/getting colder". In Polish, you say: "jest ptak" (it's a bird) or "jest ryba" (it's a fish) to mean the thing is up high or it's down low. cjareck, did I get that right?

ITALIAN:

I am officially 1/3 of the way through my 500 article challenge. I'm both glad and annoyed that I'm doing this. Glad because having the challenge is really motivating me to read in Italian when I'd otherwise watch TV in Italian. I like the article challenge because I'm not committed to a whole book, an individual article of 1,000 words is a relatively mild undertaking compared to a chapter of a book (at least it feels that way to me).

At this point, I think I've gained as much (or close to it) as I can from watching TV. My listening comprehension is pretty dang good. My reading is not yet where I want it to be, so that's what I need to be focusing on. I'm trying to read out loud ~15 minutes a day. Reading out loud is pretty annoying, mainly because it makes me concentrate on my pronunciation, which still needs some work.

I'm still coming across new verbs and vocabulary but it seems like the ratio new words:known words is feeling heavily skewed toward known words. This might just be due to the fact that I'm reading everything from one source (a personal growth website). I have a feeling that once I focus more on books that ratio will flip right back to being skewed towards new words. So I'm simultaneously dreading moving on to books, but also excited for it.

I have a massive amount of words and phrases and sentences saved in my word doc. What to do with it? Most of the stuff that gets repeated a fair amount I remember, but the lower-frequency stuff is tricky. I will probably have to start devoting some time to putting it into Anki. It feels like a monumental task that I'm not looking forward to, but it's probably the most efficient way to deal with it.