Italian + Polish with comprehensible input

[StringerBell]

If you've read my log....any top tips or things you might do differently now?

I have read your log (though not all of it, so hopefully I'm not suggesting stuff you've already tried).

I think you have a great plan of attack. I know you've said that you are not yet at a point where you enjoy reading. I am only now starting to get to the "enjoying reading" stage with Italian. Early on, I started out combining books with the matching audiobook. This really helped a lot. I still had to stop a lot, look things up, ask about things, but the audiobook removed the stress of trying to figure out how to pronounce things; it felt more like I was along for the ride. Then, at some point I got the English version of the books I was reading, so I'd read a chapter in English, then L+R to that same chapter in Italian. It removed a lot of the cognitve load of trying to get a grip on what was going on and made it more enjoyable. Have you ever tried something like that?

Another thing I would suggest is to prioritize reading shorter stuff like informal articles vs. books. The benefits of this are:

(1) They are shorter, so there’s a light at the end of the tunnel, and finishing an article gives a sense of accomplishment as opposed to a never-ending book.

(2) The language tends to be more straight-forward and more practical, they tend to be written more like how people speak rather than books, which use a lot of literary language (which for conversational purposes is mostly useless). I’m noticing that a lot of vocab and expressions I’m learning from articles are popping up in podcasts.

If you have a hard time finding a good source of articles on topics you’re interested in, you can try searching the Spanish WikiHow for How--To articles on something you are interested in or already know how to do (like how to get rid of a wasp nest, how to light a fire, how to train a dog, etc...). Even reading through twitter feeds, instagram posts, etc… is really useful because people tend to write those the way they speak. After reading this kind of stuff for a while, I think the books will become a lot easier.

When I first started reading articles, it was really challenging and it would take me a good hour to get through one. After a few weeks of reading these daily I can now blow through one in about 15-20 minutes, even with stopping to look up + copy+paste the occasional new expression into my list. So there is a real sense that I’ve made measurable improvements.

[cjareck]

Then, at some point I got the English version of the books I was reading, so I'd read a chapter in English, then L+R to that same chapter in Italian. It removed a lot of the cognitve load of trying to get a grip on what was going on and made it more enjoyable. Have you ever tried something like that?

I had applied similar tactics when I was writing about the battle of Verdun. I read about one episode in German (which I know much better) and later on in French. The descriptions and interpretations varied a lot, but at least I had some basic knowledge what the French text is about. Since then I always read about something in languages I know the best and then proceed to the more problematic for me

[StringerBell]

Quick update (that will undoubtedly be way too long):

POLISH:

After being stood up once by one person, it seems I've found another language partner to do weekly practice with. I think we are evenly matched, with her being slightly better than me. When she wasn't sure how to say something in English, she'd say it in Polish and I understood exactly what she was trying to say. Even though I'm sure I made many grammatical mistakes, I was able to communicate what I wanted and I was able to understand almost everything she said. I know I have a long way to go, but this was a really good ego booster.

She seemed to be speaking at normal speed, which felt a little too fast for me, though for the most part I was able to deal with it. I think I may ask her to speak a little slower, but I'm on the fence about this since maybe it's better to train myself to get used to normal speed?

This past week I've also been doing some Polish chats with my mom. I've noticed that by trying to say certain things, I'm remembering them much more easily. I've lately been having this issue where I receptively understand plenty of words, but then they are nowhere to be found when I want to actually use them. It seems the process of using them more is helping me to access them more easily.

I've been thinking about my goals for Polish. Initially, I just wanted to understand, maybe speak at a really basic/survival level. Now I'm thinking that I'd like to increase my aspirations a little. As of now, my long term goals are to be able to read novels/literature/articles without having to look up too many things (so, read for pleasure), to be able to speak at a conversational level without too many grammatical errors, and to be able to watch TV shows without many gaps in understanding. I'm thinking this goal will probably take me 3-5 years at my current pace. I'm making a lot of improvements, but Polish is really distant from English so I don't want to have unrealistic expectations and then get disappointed.

I'm finding that I'm starting to really appreciate certain things that really frustrated me many years ago (like verbs of motion). Before, I was stressed that there were 300 ways to say "go/went" and I'd never know when to use the right one. After a ton of listening and reading I'm starting to have an intuitive understanding of what makes sense, and I love that one verb is jam packed with so much information; it tells whether one went by walking or by car/horse/bicycle/motorbike or by boat or by plane; it tells whether it was a one-time thing or the person went to this place habitually, it tells whether the person reached the destination or whether that information is unknown, and of course based on the conjugation it tells who went even without a subject.

ITALIAN:

I've been plugging away at my edX Italian AP course. I've been enjoying it and I really impressed myself by finding two grammatical mistakes in a historical reading!

In English, one of the most common mistakes that most people make (which is one of my pet peeves) is that instead of saying, "If I were/If it were" they say "If I was". As far as I know, this construction is the only instance of a subjunctive in English. Almost no one says this correctly.

Apparently, there is a similarly common mistake in Italian that many people make with the construction "sia...sia" to mean "Both...and". Most Italians mistakenly use "sia...che". This construction popped up in something I was reading and I was super confused because I only knew "sia" as being the congiuntivo for essere.

So I asked my husband about it and he explained it means "both this and that" but it's extremely common to find it incorrectly as "sia...che" to the point where it sounds a little weird to him to say it the correct way, but he makes a point to say it correctly because it bothers him to speak in a sloppy way. Now that I know something about this construction, I'm hearing and reading it all over the place. In a podcast episode of "La Storia in Cucina" the host said it once the correct way and once the incorrect way. It's almost like a PeeWee's playhouse word of the day, when I hear it I get really excited.

After looking over some pages I'd bookmarked, I discovered that I'd actually come across this construction before but then promptly forgot about it. Somehow learning it organically by coming across it naturally, being really confused, having a conversation about it, and then listening for it specifically has made it feel manageable to understand and use as opposed to trying to memorize it because it was on some list of Italian constructions somewhere.

I recently decided to apply some of my Polish strategies to Italian. I tend to do really different things with these two languages and there's not much crossover. At this point, I've spent the same amount of time on both languages, but Italian is significantly higher; I can enjoy reading articles and watching TV/movies without subtitles. I'm definitely not at that level with Polish.

So with Italian, I decided that every time I come across a sentence with two verbs (one conjugated, one infinitive) and there is an article after the first verb, I'm going to copy+paste into a Word doc organized by the type of article, and color code the verb. My husband teases me about the fact that I love to color code everything, but I really thinks it makes most things much easier to see.

Here's what some of them look like:
In realtà scegliamo di esserlo ogni volta che commettiamo questi 4 errori.
Mi stanno costringendo a farlo contro la mia volontà.

This is forcing me to pay attention and take some time with these verb+article combos. Paying attention to little details like this is a weakness for me, so I'm hoping that strategy will slow me down a little and force my brain to take note of what's going on. I can tell that after only a few days of doing this, I'm already starting to remember some of them.

[StringerBell]

@cjareck, @hedgehog.chess (and anyone else who may have an answer to this)

Do you have a Polish TV series to recommend?

I'm looking for sitcoms (light comedy shows) with regular people who have a lot of typical conversation. Not sure if you know these shows, but in case you do, something in the style of Friends, That '70s Show, Modern Family, The Office. Something where I will hear a lot of typical daily dialogue.

[cjareck]

Quick update (that will undoubtedly be way too long):

Yes, it was long, but I made it a little bit shorter by reading only the Polish part of your log

POLISH:
She seemed to be speaking at normal speed, which felt a little too fast for me, though for the most part I was able to deal with it. I think I may ask her to speak a little slower, but I'm on the fence about this since maybe it's better to train myself to get used to normal speed?

In my opinion, it is much better to learn the natural pace from the beginning. Because:
- if you learn to understand slow pace, you will have to learn to be able to comprehend the natural tempo - so it will be double workload
- if you ask your language partner to speak slowly - she might find it difficult and unnatural and become discouraged
- if you record audios for phrases and they will be unnaturally slow and put them into SRS you will soon get bored with them

[cjareck]

Do you have a Polish TV series to recommend?

It is difficult since I do not have a TV for about 14 years
But I strongly recommend everything directed by him:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Bareja
"Zmiennicy", "Alternatywy 4" are the series. They were recorded during communist's rule, but they show that times in an extremely funny way. I wonder how they passed censorship. If you wish something modern, I don't know, maybe:
Ranczo - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranczo_(TV_series) - but I do not know it
Świat według Kiepskich - but this is not ambitious, and you will not find normal dialogues here

[hedgehog.chess]

@cjareck, @hedgehog.chess, @drp9341 (and anyone else who may have an answer to this)

Do you have a Polish TV series to recommend?

I'm looking for sitcoms (light comedy shows) with regular people who have a lot of typical conversation. Not sure if you know these shows, but in case you do, something in the style of Friends, That '70s Show, Modern Family, The Office. Something where I will hear a lot of typical daily dialogue.

For something modern, light yet not totally absurd or plainly stupid I would recommend Rodzinka.pl or Kasia i Tomek. Of course the longer the series exists the more boring the episodes get…

[cjareck]

I watch a few episodes of "Kasia i Tomek", and it was quite funny. The other one may be "Miodowe lata".
(edit)
You asked about sitcoms, but I simply cannot live without recommending this to you "Rejs" This is rather for advanced level, but one of the best scenes is with quite limited vocabulary:

The film as a whole you may see here:

The film is a living legend - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cruise_(1970_film). I watched it - 20 times or so. I knew it almost by heart when I was younger, and even now I can quote some interesting fragments
It was one of "półkownik" film - a game of words - "pułkownik" is a colonel (both sounds the same), "półka" is a shelf. So such films waited on the shelves to be accepted by censorship.

[StringerBell]

Even though I requested sitcoms, I'm open to suggestions of any genre. I will definitely check out that movie!

[cjareck]

Even though I requested sitcoms, I'm open to suggestions of any genre. I will definitely check out that movie!

If you need any explanations or translations, just let me know, and I will gladly help you. Besides this film starts in my hometown Somewhere in the beginning man asks where is the city centre. The sailor points out the second side of the river. In reality, they have it 100 m behind them