Under-cooked Korean

[qeadz]

Lately I've been doing a bit more grammar (which makes me quite happy because I havent looked at it in a long time!).

A lot of it has come from me bolstering my English -> Korean deck I've been working on. I'm looking for natural sounding sentences which I can add to the deck. Ideally also sentences which I'm more likely to use. So they're kind of cherry picked for what they're saying, the vocabulary in them and sometimes because I wish to get some help hammering in a grammatical principle.

I want to make it a point that I understand the construction of every sentence added as best I can - which is to say that I understand the nuances which might make it appropriate in some circumstances but inappropriate in others.

One of the sentences I added was simply:

점수가 어떻게 됐어요? (EN translation provided: What is the score?)

Now in the past I've seen this for example:

성함이 어떻게 되새요? (EN: What is your name?)

Both of these can be said quite differently. For the former one might consider "점수가 뭐에요?" while for the latter one might consider "이름이 뭐에요?".

Of course any student of Korean beyond maybe the novice levels recognizes that for the "What is your name?" example, there is a distinct difference. The first example of "What is your name?" is phrased for respect and uses the honorific form of the word for name. So it is appropriate if you're in a setting which requires respect.

But what about the "what is the score?" example? Both can actually have the politeness dropped and be used in a casual setting. Is there then a difference or are the both identical?

I asked my wife.

She is, of course, only one data point... but being Korean, she has some weight (I feel) on the matter.

In her view the former version of "What is the score?" is more like "Hows it going?" - one might expect that a watcher of a sporting match may reply with which team is winning... or by how many points they are winning. But for the latter version, its more specifically asking for the actual numbers of the score.

- - -

I have many many such questions regarding grammar.

I recently went through a sizable investigation into the ㄴ다는 것 (or: ㄴ다고 하는 것) structures because my only references cover it as quoted speech... very specifically so. Yet I've found many examples which clearly are not quoted speech.

To this end I did uncover a different language resource which mentioned one very specific second usage for it. And that was good because it explained *some* of the examples I had in hand.

However there were still a couple left over which are very much accepted by the Korean ear but do not fall under either explanation I've found.

In the end I actually began to realize something that the HTSK guy spent a little time trying to describe. When I originally read it, I didn't quite follow his attempted explanation but now - armed with the experience gained in Korean since then and some example sentences - I think I'm arriving at the same conclusion he was trying to articulate.

It revolves very much behind what the '다' in the above grammatical principle really represents, and what it conveys when employed.

Its been a real eye-opener of a 'discovery'.

- - -

Fun times with Korean. I was also looking a bit more into the two-subject sentence structure which Korean regularly employs. I have a sentence I'm having trouble with - not because I dont understand what it means, but because when I look at it closely I cant quite shake the feeling that its violating some expectation or rule I have internally regarding grammar.

It could be that the sentence itself is a shortened version of a lightly longer (but correct) sentence. Or that my understanding of Korean grammar is once again faulty (and the latter is much more likely!).

I'm going to do some investigation.

[qeadz]

As valuable as it is for Anki to remove problematic words and suspend them, it sure demotivates me when I'm told cards are being suspended.

I dunno why. You'd think I'd be used to it and would learn to just tune it out at minimum... or perhaps even make a mental note to go address some of the suspended cards. Alas, no.

I was toying with making my own SRS to use because there are some usability/button layout things I'd like to do. Maybe some day I will.

I'd certainly like to replace LingQ as my reader. Problem is that some of the things I'd like are a little custom so it'd also be a case of 'build my own'.

*sigh*

[qeadz]

Have you tried googling Anki Add-ons to see if someone else already made a different layout? I have seen a few in the past and recently using one that only uses two buttons. I wish Korean had a better open source dictionary so we could use pop-up dictionary like JP-learners but sadly there is none so it is either LingQ, ReadLang or paper+pencil... Or maybe a tablet with the screen spilt so you can see the book and Naver.

Well I use Anki only on my phone and usually one-handed. So as far as I can tell (I did a look before at some point) the Android client is not very flexible. At any rate all of my desired changes are around one-handed use so I'd be able to operate it efficiently with whichever hand I happen to be holding my phone in (ie: thumb accessible via buttons, swipes or gestures).

There are some features which I think would be nice to have too.

LingQ is a different story tho'. It does much of what I want and so I'd actually be very happy with it were it not for the odd bugs that crop up. Now I can't see the bottom line of text on some pages for lessons. I also find words in the top right are sometimes not selectable for some reason. Before this it used to have issues with the playback - it seems they fire off some separate process to play back the music and the app would lose communication with it... and last year it wouldn't stop playing if I answered a phone call while listening (the other party would hear the audio from LingQ mixed in with my voice!).

Its just so frustratingly buggy and their UI decisions seem to be more for look than they are functionality.

Plus it takes a LONG time now to load lessons. I think its talking back and forth with their servers a lot - probably pulling down LingQ's or something. But really lessons I've opened before should load almost instantly.

There are a bunch of neat stuff I'd do specifically for handling Korean were I to make my own reader... but if LingQ just focused on making their Android client less buggy and more responsive, I'd be happy to go without any additional features.

Anyway this is more of a rant than I wanted to make. But ...er.. *grumble* *grumble* I guess. Both apps mentioned still do well enough that I'll probably just continue to use them anyway.

[qeadz]

Aargh. I was flattened out all weekend by a cold (perhaps flu?).

Yesterday I had to call in sick, and since I was lying around home all day feeling too crappy to even sleep I decided to watch some Netflix.

While I didn't do my regular Korean study routine, I did manage to do my vocab drills and watch 4 hours worth of Strong Girl Bong-soon. I didn't do any preparation for it so it was simply the usual: watching with English subtitles while listening to hear if I can catch the Korean.

Ordinarily I dont count such watching as proper Korean study - I get far too little value from it for it to compete with regular study via material more appropriate for my level... but in this case perhaps quantity does make up for quality. Thats what I'm telling myself anyway

It had been so long since the first batch of episodes I had watched that I had forgotten some of the events from the earlier episodes :/ But the show is growing on me. I want to see where this all ends up. Even the comedy in it is beginning to grow on me

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Meanwhile my quest to pull apart Korean sentences continues. Its very time-consuming, as I'm sure every language learner knows for their respective TL. There is also an endless supply of sentences whose construction I do not quite understand even if I know the message being conveyed.

Such is the endless journey

[qeadz]

Wow. Its end of March already. How time flies.

My wife and son have been away - visiting her family. Unfortunately I have not got enough vacation to go with them, so I've had some free time at home for a couple of weeks.

I *meant* to do a lot of things: photography, programming, making photo albums, studying Korean.

Alas Korean kind of fell of the back-end. I say kind of. I am still struggling through Anki, but did not do any of the actual study I wanted into. Instead I actually watched a bunch of Korean programming. I finished Strong Girl Bong Soon. I finished Last. I'm going to watch Mr. Sunshine.

As you know I don't really count that as being proper Korean study - I'm understanding too little of what is said for it to be worth the same amount of time listening to more appropriate materials. But it still counts for something.

Meanwhile Anki is not really settling down. I had hoped that by targeting suspended words with a little research and extra information on the card that, once recycled, those cards would then begin to stick.

Some have.

I think success was much more common in the earlier days of me doing this. Since then its been an overload of Chinese roots and all manner of stuff which has seen many of those words return to the 'suspended' bin. Furthermore the focus on roots has actually upset my ability to remember other words which I was getting right... but now they're getting all confused and mixed up with words I'm dredging up from the 'suspended' bin.

Right now I'm not really sure what to do. On average I think I'm getting 3 or 4 words suspended per day and only adding 5 new words each day. Thats a net gain of about 1.5 words per day in terms of 'mature card' potential that I don't expect to end up suspended.

One of the problems with Anki when memory starts to fail is that the cards which one gets wrong each day will then reset their intervals (obviously - I mean if you forgot it, then its time to build up those mental connections again for the word). Its not really a 'problem' per se, but it has a cumulative effect in terms of the daily reviews one has to do.

Today I have to review a crap-tonne of cards. I have already gotten about 30 wrong and I'm not finished reviewing. I've had 6 become suspended & buried. So its not looking great.

At a very basic level I think this is the issue: The amount of vocabulary I am trying to learn has now vastly outstripped the amount of native content I actually expose myself to and 'consume'. I just dont consume enough native content nor enough variety to support the words I am trying to prop up with Anki.

I could just put the breaks on Anki and move into only doing revision... but then I see that I've only 460 more words until I've finished the deck... so maybe keep on going?

My breakdown as current:
68.56% mature
15.7% young & learn
5.67% Suspended & buried (this is climbing quite rapidly now)
remainder are unseen

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But in some good news my wife found the KGiU books so I am quite looking forward to working with them!

[Flickserve]

It seems you are more concerned with anki than real interactions using Korean. You seem to get very little speaking practice and listening practice on a one to one situation. Is that a deliberate strategy?

I get the impression of an over reliance on apps for learning, yet there is little information on you using what you have learnt.

[qeadz]

It seems you are more concerned with anki than real interactions using Korean. You seem to get very little speaking practice and listening practice on a one to one situation. Is that a deliberate strategy?

I get the impression of an over reliance on apps for learning, yet there is little information on you using what you have learnt.

Its partially a deliberate strategy. My wife is Korean but we speak English quite comfortably and have since the start of our relationship. She doesn't have the patience to put up with the baby talk and strain of listening to someone attempt to bumble their way through a foreign language. I can quite understand - I used to volunteer at a shelter for the homeless and we'd get plenty of international students volunteering as a means to improve their English... its somehow stressful to wait on those pauses after every couple words while the person attempts to convey something. Its very tiring on the ear.

For the sake of marital harmony I have not pushed for dialog in Korean.

However I note that once my ability to understand spoken Korean got up to something reasonable, my wife started to speak to me a bunch in Korean. There is a level at which she obviously doesnt mind repeating herself every now and then so I've crossed the 'frustration threshold' and now my understanding is tolerable.

I'm hoping to do the same with spoken Korean. I'm working on significantly upping the amount of practice I get constructing sentences and applying grammar. With a bit of practice maybe I can hasten myself to a similar place for speaking - where I can begin to engage in some dialog at home that crosses the 'frustration threshold' and then things can pick up.

But to comment more directly on what you said: I *am* very concerned with Anki and the assist apps that I use.

For any language learning activity I think one has to define well what the benefit is and where it lies. If I don't assess it regularly I may find I'm using up time with the activity but getting no benefit.

For Anki the benefit is that words progress into 'mature' cards which represents that I know the word well enough that I dont have to see it for over a month and I'll still recall its meaning. Words in the 'suspended and buried' pile are ones which I'm clearly forgetting (or at least getting mixed up with other words) and so they are taken off the table - I'll never see them again unless I go deal with them.

So I want to ensure that I am tracking toward the goal of having thousands of words as 'mature' words - meaning that I know them well enough that I might only have to revise them very sporadically.

If its not working then I need to adjust my approach.

[qeadz]

My wife arrived back from Korea with gifts - namely the KGiU books I was after!

Very happy to have them. Already had a look through. Hopefully having additional explanation on hand via these books will help me. Plus its always good to have an additional batch of example sentences for each grammar point.

I've kind of stopped trying to read random news articles in Korean. I should pick that up again.

[qeadz]

Well I certainly am tardy at maintaining this log eh

I'm almost finished the Anki vocab deck. I have 20 new words left to get through, which is 4 days. Obviously I'm not done with vocab but I think I'm going to shift from introducing 5 new words a day to a different focus.

Quite some time ago I asked a friend to buy me a book while she was back home in Korea. Back then I tried to read The Hobbit slowly, hoping it would pan out like the Talk-To-Me-In-Korean Iyagi's did. The latter were tough, but working through them for a few months proved to be very good for my language learning. However The Hobbit was a bit too far beyond me and I decided that it wasn't worth my time back then.

Now with an improved vocabulary and understanding of grammar, I'm hoping that I can tackle The Hobbit again. It'll certainly be tough but hopefully a bit more manageable.

I'm not really sure how to tackle it though. One way is to skim ahead while making a list of words I don't know. It need not be exhaustive, but just most of them. I could revise that list a few times before I actually get to reading the page in earnest. Some of the words which look like they could be good to revise a bit more could be added to my Anki deck.

I'm not really sure what would be a good approach thats not too intensive.

Its going to be tough regardless. Statistically speaking I think novels tend to use about 8000 unique words. I probably know about 5000 words but many may not apply to this kind of book. So I'm expecting a considerably barrage of new words.

But what an achievement it would be to have read an entire book in Korean!

[Jiwon]

I'm not really sure how to tackle it though. One way is to skim ahead while making a list of words I don't know. It need not be exhaustive, but just most of them. I could revise that list a few times before I actually get to reading the page in earnest. Some of the words which look like they could be good to revise a bit more could be added to my Anki deck.

I'm not really sure what would be a good approach thats not too intensive.

Its going to be tough regardless. Statistically speaking I think novels tend to use about 8000 unique words. I probably know about 5000 words but many may not apply to this kind of book. So I'm expecting a considerably barrage of new words.

But what an achievement it would be to have read an entire book in Korean!

This reminds me of my first time reading a full novel in German: Harry Potter! I was also very anxious to make the best out of this material, since German books were very difficult to get hold of. In fact, this was when I was living in Sri Lanka, and I had to go to Kyobo Books in Seoul in order to get any German books. This is not to say it's easy to buy German books in Korea - only that it's possible in comparison to Sri Lanka where it's virtually impossible.

I read the first few chapters looking up every single word I did not know. Then it occurred to me that this wasn't the way I learnt English. I was and still am more comfortable reading extensively and figuring out meaning of words from the context. So that's what I did - and once I finished I started the book all over. I repeated this a few more times and that really helped me get used to different German sentence structures, although I might not have improved as much as I could have on vocabulary.