Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Romanian, Arabic and more

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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:44 pm

La semaine dernière, le Sénat français a rejetté le projet de loi sur les langues régionales, projet de loi qui aurait permis la ratification de la Charte européenne des langues régionales ou minoritaires en France. Le projet avait été adopté par l'assemblée nationale en janvier 2014, mais comme il s'agit d'un texte constitutionnel, il fallait également une majorité au Sénat. Or, une motion de procédure a été adoptée par 180 voix contre 155, ce qui a effectivement tué l'initiative du gouvernement. Voici un article intéressant dans Le Monde apparu le jour avant le débat au Sénat, qui explique les arguments des partisans et des réfractaires de la proposition de loi. Et pour ceux qui sont vraiment intéressés par cette question, voici le lien vers le compte rendu intégral du débat.

Comme j'habite dans une région où beaucoup de monde parle une langue régionale, je vais partager le premier épisode d'une série diffusée par la chaîne Alsace20, Hopla Trio. La série est principalement en alsacien, avec des sous-titres en français. Si cela vous plaît, vous pouvez facilement trouver tous les épisodes sur Youtube.

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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Expugnator » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:47 pm

What a find, Ogrim! Now there is a place to go after L'alsacien sans peine!
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:51 am

Expugnator wrote:What a find, Ogrim! Now there is a place to go after L'alsacien sans peine!


:D :D

If only there were an Assimil course in Alsatian. To be honest, although I have beein living in Alsace for more than seven years, I have not seriously made an effort to learn Alsatian. I think one of the reasons is that there is no established written standard, and I am very much a person who learns through reading and engaging with the written form of a language. Furthermore, what is defined as Alsatian is in reality a group of various Alemannic dialects with important differences between them, in particular as regards pronunciation.

There is not much learning material for Alsatian. The regionally funded organisation OLCAlsace works for the promotion of Alsatian and organises courses, but for self-study there is little. There is an Assimil "L'alsacien de poche" and I also have "L'alsacien pour les nuls", but I have not found a good comprehensive introduction to Alsatian. And I have a hard time finding TV or radio programmes in Alsatian, let alone print media.

I guess if I lived in a small village were the majority speak Alsatian on a daily basis, I would make the effort, but here in the city you do not get to hear the language very often, although I do have an elderly neighbour who speaks Alsatian to our local "boulanger". A bit like in that video clip. :)
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Arnaud » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:11 am

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Last edited by Arnaud on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Expugnator » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:14 am

Yes, I didn't know it was out of print. I always took for granted one can learn Alsatian through Assimil. The book is really fun actually.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:27 pm

Arnaud wrote:
Ogrim wrote:If only there were an Assimil course in Alsatian.
There was one, but it's out of print now.
You can find the pdf online and I have the audio in mp3 on my HD, if someone is interested... :roll:


Vade retro, Satanas! :evil: Seriously, I had to work hard to not start learning Irish Gaelic, I am supposed to study Romanian (not doing very well so far), I want to put even more effort into Russian and now you tempt me with Alsatian??? ;)

Talking about Russian, last week I went to a book presentation by my Russian teacher. She has published a collection of poetry called Состояния. I don't know if the book is available to buy outside of France for the time being (couldn't find it on Amazon), but here is an article (in Russian) with a short video from the presentation (the sound is not optimal, unfortunately).
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:26 am

Español
La semana pasada estuve en Madrid en una feria de empelo para presentar las oportunidades de empleo de la organización donde trabajo. Fue una experiencia interesante. No es la primera vez que participo en una feria de este tipo, pero es la primera vez que lo hago en España - lo que significaba hablar español casi todo el rato. En sí no era un problema, pero de vez en cuando me faltaba la terminología precisa para explicar correctamente algunos aspectos técnicos. También fue cansado, estuve en la feria de las 12 hasta las 6 de la tarde, hablando casi sin parar todo este tiempo. Calculo que pasaron por mi "stand" entre 200 y 300 personas, sobre todo estudiantes, pero también había gente más mayor con cierta experiencia laboral. Tengo que decir que la gente jóven española me da cierta pena: lo tienen muy difícil una vez que salgan de la universidad - hay poco empleo, y menos empleo estable y bien pagado. Buscan prácticas que en la mayoría de los casos no son remuneradas, así que viven con la ayuda de los padres y, si tienen suerte encuentran algún trabajito sirviendo comida basura o repartiendo folletos por la calle. No digo que sea la situación de todos los jóvenes españoles, pero muchos de los que visitaron el stand sí se quejaban de lo complicado que es la situación, y por eso buscan salida en otros países europeos.

Français
De retour en France, j'ai été surpris par le manque de contrôle à l’aéroport. Après les événements terribles à Paris, je m’attendais à un contrôle de passeports, mais rien. J’ai vu que les autorités ont expliqué que pour l’instant ils n’ont pas les moyens de faire des contrôles en continu à tous les points d’entrée au pays, mais je pensais au moins qu’il y en aurait à tous les aéroports. C’est un peu inquiétant.

Je dois dire qu’après le 13-N, l’ambiance est un peu étrange ici en France. Même ici dans ma ville tout semble plus calme que d’habitude, il y a moins de gens dans les rues et dans les commerces, et même si le marché de Noël aura bien lieu, il n’y a pas cette sensation de festivité qu’on trouve normalement à cette époque de l’année. Je crains qu’il faille du temps avant que la France retrouve l’élan et la normalité, si jamais.

However, life must go on, we cannot let terrorism win by inducing fear stopping us from conducting our business as usual. And sometime one has to turn off the 24/7 news stream and do something enjoyable and fun. One thing I like to do is to watch comedy in my TLs, and as I talked about border control in the French text above, I thought I would share a sketch by the Russian comedy group Уральские пельмени called Миграционная карта (Migration Card). It should be relatively easy to understand for those who have at least intermediate Russian, and there are subtitles to help, although they pass very quickly and are not 100% word for word.

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Ogrim
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:58 pm

Romontsch sursilvan
Igl ei scumandau da discutar da politica sin quei forum, also vegnel jeu mo a dir ch’ils temps sun interessants per chi s’interessa dalla politica europea. In october dava ei elecziuns federalas nella Svizra, e la partida PPS ei stada la partida la pli votada. Ier dava ei l’emprema ronda da elecziuns regionalas nella Frontscha, e denter duas jamnas dat ei elecziuns parlamentarias nella Spagna. Il resultat dallas elecziuns franzosas ha surstau a bia commentaders, schebein che las sondaschas havessen indicau ina muntada dalla Front Natziunala. E nel cass dalla Spagna, negin sa dir che vegn a schabegiar il vegn december. Per l’emprema gada dat ei duas novas partidas politicas cu ina gronda pusseivladad dad haver biars representants nel “congreso de los diputados” si Madrid, ed ei para che negina partida vegni ad haver ina maioritad absoluta. Jeu selegrel da saver suandar quei che schabegia sils lungatgs dals differents paesos e buca esser obligaus da enconuscher las novitads entras l’interpretaziun si in sulet lungatg.

Aber avunda da elecziuns. Denter duas jamnas eisi Nadal, e per quei haiel empustau il cudisch La baselgia el glatscher, ina collecziun da detgas dalla Surselva. Igl ei in cudisch biling, ed jeu sperel ch’el arrivi avon che jeu mondi nella Spagna per las celebraziuns.

Finalmein lessel jeu cumpartgir in clip da Nadal dalla gruppa “ils Furbaz”, che ha representau la Svizra in Eurovision in 1989, e che continuescha a cantar, avontut canziuns da Nadal. Mintg’onn nellas jamnas avon Nadal dattan ils biars concerts nella Svizra ed ils ein fetg populars. Quella canzun senumna "Il messadi dalla musica".

(It is not allowed to discuss politics on this forum, but I hope I get away with just noting that these are interesting times for those who follow politics in Europe. In October there were parliamentary elections in Switzerland, and the party SVP (Schweizerischer Volkspartei) was the most voted party. Yesterday the first round of regional elections in France took place, and in two weeks there are parliamentary elections in Spain. The results from the French elections have surprised many commentators, although the polls had indicated that Front National would increase their share of the votes. In the case of Spain, no one can say what will happen on 20 December. For the first time, there are two new political parties with big chances of having numerous representatives in the “congreso de los diputados”, the Spanish parliament in Madrid, and it seems that no party will get an overall majority. I am happy that I can follow what happens in the languages of the different countries and not having to rely on learning the news through the interpretation given in one single language.

But enough about elections. In two weeks there will be Christmas, and for that I have ordered a Romansh book called “The church on the glacier”, a collection of short stories from Surselva. It is a bilingual book, and i hope that it will arrive before I go on holiday to Spain.

Finally I would like to share with you a Christmas clip by the Sursilvan group “ils Furbaz”, who represented Switzerland in the Eurovision Song Contest back in 1989, and who are still going strong, not least with their very popular Christmas concerts around Switzerland in the weeks before Christmas. This song is called "Il messadi dalla musica" - The message of the music.

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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:52 pm

I know this log is all over the place, because I jump from music to current affairs to literature and now I am going to talk about grammar. The thing is that whatever I write her is mostly a result of an inspiration on the spur of the moment, and while I put a bit of effort into formulating my entries, the thematic will always change according to what occupies my time and my interest when I decide to update the log. So here it goes, an obscure point about Romansh grammar:

Lately I have dedicated more time to Romansh again, and apart from reading stuff and watching videos on Play RTR, I have also spent a few hours refreshing certain grammar points that I sometimes struggle with. One such point which I want to share here is the use of adverbs and prepositions to indicate location (whether static or movement), because Romansh offers some quite unique features which distinguishes it from other Romance languages. Basically it is a system based around four directions: up, down, in and out, which in Sursilvan is si, giu, or(a), en. These can be combined with other adverbs, prepositions or particles to give an even more precise indication of location, such as -dem to indicate the very bottom, such as in giudem la val meaning "all the way down in the valley, or with -sum to indicate the highest point. There are even combinations of three adverbs such as viadenagiu made of vi - over, en - in and giu down, to indicate a movement towards the interior and downwards.

All this, according to the specialists, is of course due to the fact that Romansh speakers have always lived in Alpine valleys, where it was important to indicate the exact movement and position in relation to the surrounding nature. Still it has become a feature of the language, and what is more particular is that the four "basic" adverbs can be used as preposition when indicating movement towards or being in a place. So someone living in the valley of Surselva who want to say "I go to Zurich" will say Jeu mondel giu Turitg, litteraly "I go down (to) Zurich", whilst his cousin being on a trip to Basel will say Jeu habiteschel si Mustér - "I live up (in) Mustér/Disentis". So basically yo will refer to being in or going to a town or another place with "si" or "giu" depending on its relative altitude to where you are.

Of course, you can use the neutral "a", corresponding to the use of à in French, and that is probably what you use to refer to a very distant place. It is hard to decide if you go up or down when you fly from Zurich to Los Angeles , but e.g. if you talk about going to Mount Everest, you would certainly say "si Péz Everest" - you cannot get higher than that without leaving the planet :) . That is also the reason I alllowed myself to write "si Madrid" in my previous entry, because Madrid is definitely at a higher altitude than where I find myself right now.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh and others

Postby Ogrim » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:19 pm

Romontsch sursilvan
Jeu continueschel a scriver sin romontsch perquei che oz ha l’assamblea federala dil parlament svizzer elegiu il niev cussegl federal suenter las elecziuns da october, et per l’emprema gada suenter otg onns dat ei buca in romontsch el cussegl. La cussegliera federala Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf da Grischun ha bandunau il cussegl, ed Guy Parmelin da la Svizzera franzosa ei staus elelgius niev cussegler. Ils auters sis cusseglers ein els medems sco nel parlament vargau. Dunna Widmer-Schlumpf ha dau in discuors da cumiau sils quater lungatgs naziunals: romontsch, tudestg, talian e franzos.

Il cussegl federal ei il guvern dalla Svizra, aber il sistem politic svizzer ei differents dals tuts els sistems dels auters paesos democratics: il cussegl federal representa buca mo la maioritad dil parlament, mobein l’enitr parlament e bunamein tuttas las partidas han in o dus members. Schebein ei dat in president dil cussegl, ei sia rolla buca quei da in emprem minister. Il cussegl federal elegescha siu president mintg’onn per ina duraziun da in onn, ed el o ella ei primus inter pares, schebein il president representa la Svizra sil plan internaziunal. Aschia sebasa la politica federala svizra sil consens denter las formaziuns politicas e naturalmein era sil consens denter ils cantons.

Translation:I continue in Romansh today as well because today the Federal Assembly of the Swiss Parliament has elected the new Federal Council following the elections in October, and for the first time after eight years is there no Romansh speaker in the Council. The Federal Councillor Eveline Widmer-Schlumpf from Grison left the Council, and Guy Parmelin from the French-speaking part of Switzerland was elected in her place. The other six Councillors are the same as in the last parliament. Ms Widmer-Schlumpf gave a goodbye speech in the four national languages: Romansh, German, Italian and French.

The Federal Council is the government of Switzerland, but the Swiss political system is different from that of any other democratic country: the Federal Council does not only represent the majority in parliament, but the whole parliament and practically all the parties have one or two members. Although there is a President of the Council, his or her role is not that of a prime minister. The Federal Council elects its President every year for a period of one year, and she or he is first amongst equals, although the President normally represents Switzerland at the international scene. This way, the Swiss federal policy is based on consensus between the political parties and of course the consensus between the cantons.
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