Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:42 pm

Thanks Ogrim for your very informative reply. That certainly clarifies your situation and your experience for me. It is a pretty amazing existence you have there, certainly a polyglot dream in reality.

Btw, the Arabic idol clip you posted a few posts back in your log is nice to listen to. I found that interesting as Arabic is not a language I'm that fond of, generally speaking.

How's your Alsatian?
0 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4169

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:23 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:How's your Alsatian?


Sorry, forgot to reply to that bit of your question. I have not made any effort to learn to speak Alsatian. Those who read my log and other contributions will know that I am very interested in minority languages, but I have not wanted to invest in studying Alsatian for various reasons: I can understand quite a bit, but far from everything, thanks to knowing German, but as a matter of fact I do not come across Alsatian very often in my daily life. Here in the city you sometimes hear it on the streets, but it is mostly spoken by elderly people. Another reason is that there is very little culture produced in Alsatian, and access to culture is one of the main reasons for my learning a new language. Most writers of Alsatian origin will write in either French or "Hochdeutsch", which makes sense if you want to reach a large audience. The local TV stations Alsace20 and France 3 Alsace produce a few shows and programmes in Alsatian, but it is still limited in quantity/quality and in thematics. There is a theatre in Strasbourg which stages productions in Alsatian from time to time, but that is really not enough of a motivating factor in itself to learn the language. There is no newspaper or magazine produced exclusively in Alsatian. Compared to Romansh, the latter has a much more vibrant cultural scene than what is the case for the Alsatian language, even with one tenth of the number of speakers.

Finally, I think I should also mention that Alsatian speakers will not necessarily be impressed or look positively upon a foreigner learning their language. Although a lot has been done to raise the status and pride in Alsatian, there are still many who consider the language to be "just a German dialect", and they would rather expect you as a foreigner to speak Standard German to them and not try to "imitate" the way they speak. I don't say everybody thinks like this, but it certainly is an attitude I've come across more than once.

PeterMollenburg wrote:Btw, the Arabic idol clip you posted a few posts back in your log is nice to listen to. I found that interesting as Arabic is not a language I'm that fond of, generally speaking.


Thanks for that. In the past I didn't care much for Arabic music. I used to think that it all sounded the same, but the more I explore and listen to different artists, the more I realise that there is a lot of variety, depth and breadth in Arabic music, and I am enjoying it more and more. Another reason for me to learn the language :) .
3 x
Ich grolle nicht

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:36 pm

Thanks for your reply Ogrim. Again, thoughtful and plenty of bulk. It makes sense now that you explain it, as to why you are not that keen to learn Alsatian. Someone posted a link once for me to listen to some Alsatian (could've even been you, but I don't think it was) and I liked the sound of it, I felt it sounded softer and perhaps more musical than standard Geman, but that could be my memory putting on some rose coloured glasses.

It's disappointing that some authors who are native speakers of minority languages like Alsatian may choose to write in larger languages such as French or German (although an Alsatian native speaker is likely to be a French and perhaps even German native speaker as well), but perfectly understandable. My fear is that if the EU keeps advancing into a superstate in which English seems to be being pushed at every angle, that even languages like French and German may take a back seat to English one day when it comes to publishing books, as English will sell to an even larger audience. I hope that day never comes, as a world devoid of cultural diversity, would be a rather barren one.

Back onto minority languages... I think it's fantastic that you're studying Romansh! Good luck with your Romansh and your Arabic.. and all your language learning adventures for that matter, and thank you once again for your thoughtful replies.

PM
0 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4169

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:55 pm

PM, I won't go into a discussion with you about the EU. You may guess from my avatar that we probably would not agree on very much in that respect ;) . So let's stick to the forum rules and stay away from politics please.

I can agree in some way that it is disappointing people do not write in minority languages like Alsatian, but I can also understand why. Alsatian has no strong literary tradition, and has never really had a standard spelling system established. The fact that on the one hand it is close to Standard German, and on the other the influence and prestige of French as the only official language of France probably makes it easier for an Alsatian with literary ambitions to choose one of those two languages. That doesn't mean that noone write in Alsatian though. There are in particular quite a few writers of poetry out there who use their local version of Alsatian.

I think this quote from an article by a professor at Strasbourg University explains the situation here quite well:

Nous pouvons distinguer aujourd’hui trois littératures en Alsace : celle de langue française – langue nationale – et celles en langue régionale qui se présente sous une double forme : l’allemand dialectal d’Alsace (appelé communément l’alsacien), dans ses multiples variantes locales, et le haut-allemand, langue de grande communication (langue écrite ou allemand standard) qui correspond au dialecte. C’est bien cette triphonie qui caractérise la réalité historique en Alsace et, en même temps, l’ouvre sur la scène nationale et internationale. Certains auteurs écrivent d’ailleurs dans la langue nationale et la langue régionale (sous l’une ou l’autre, voire sous ses deux formes). Cette situation complexe est la conséquence des vicissitudes souvent douloureuses et violentes de l’histoire qui a marqué notre province-frontière, tour à tour allemande et française.
5 x
Ich grolle nicht

User avatar
Josquin
Blue Belt
Posts: 646
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:38 pm
Location: Germany
Languages: German (native); English (advanced fluency); French (basic fluency); Italian, Swedish, Russian, Irish (intermediate); Dutch, Icelandic, Japanese, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic (beginner); Latin, Ancient Greek, Biblical Hebrew, Sanskrit (reading only)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=737
x 1764

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Josquin » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:35 pm

From a German point of view, I can totally understand the situation. Alsace has never been an independent state, but always a part of either France or Germany. So, Alsatian, which is clearly a dialect of German, has never had the chance to become a real language, but has always been a part of the German dialect continuum, ruled by the Standard High German "Dachsprache". Few authors write in German dialects and if they do, the topics are often regional or humoristic. Serious literature, however, will always be written in Standard German.

The situation is similar for Luxembourgish, which originally was (and theoretically still is...) a dialect of German, but became a language in its own right only due to Luxembourgish independence and its active transformation into an "Ausbausprache" by language politics. I'm not an expert on Luxembourgish, but I doubt there's much literature in it. If Luxembourgers wanted to write, they used Standard German, not their dialect, which by the way has only comparably recently become an official language of Luxembourg.

I also wanted to express my doubt that the advance of English in the modern world has anything to do with the EU. On the contrary, the EU protects minority languages. English is not propagated by the EU, but everybody's native languages are. The rise of English has political, cultural, and economic reasons, none of which are related to the EU. The only minority languages English is really endangering are the ones on (former) British soil, i.e. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Cornish, Manx, and Irish. There can be no talk of major European languages being endangered by English.

But I don't want to clutter Ogrim's log with politics, especially as he himself has refrained from discussion.
7 x
Oró, sé do bheatha abhaile! Anois ar theacht an tsamhraidh.

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:39 pm

Josquin wrote:I also wanted to express my doubt that the advance of English in the modern world has anything to do with the EU. On the contrary, the EU protects minority languages. English is not propagated by the EU, but everybody's native languages are. The rise of English has political, cultural, and economic reasons, none of which are related to the EU. The only minority languages English is really endangering are the ones on (former) British soil, i.e. Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Cornish, Manx, and Irish. There can be no talk of major European languages being endangered by English.


Some of the obvious reasons:
-Hollywood (and the movie and tv industry in general)
-The internet (English was the unchallenged emperor for a long time. Add to it the rest of computer stuff and games)
-The 20th century in Europe. The language of the heroes and saviours, the US and UK. Beyond the Iron Courtain, the perceived language of freedom. The central european region could have switched to German in the 90's, but English simply seemed more cool.
-The economic importance of the US. The UK is no longer that important, its children overgrew it. And asia took English as the main foreign language to communicate with Europe in, and it is a huge business partner.

The national and minority languages are more protected now than a few decades ago. Sure, we could do more, but we have already gone a long way.
3 x

DaveBee
Blue Belt
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native). French (studying).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
x 1386

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby DaveBee » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:07 pm

Cavesa wrote:The central european region could have switched to German in the 90's, but English simply seemed more cool.
Surely making English the L2 taught in schools was a deliberate policy decision by local/national government?
2 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Cavesa » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:36 pm

DaveBee wrote:
Cavesa wrote:The central european region could have switched to German in the 90's, but English simply seemed more cool.
Surely making English the L2 taught in schools was a deliberate policy decision by local/national government?


It was, but it was not necessary for it to be the only L2. In some schools, it is still L3, but those are exceptions. You probably cannot imagine it. The 90's were an age of hope and excitement about everything new. The era of development, trying, errors, optimism. English fitted this really well. Finally, people could see the hollywood movies without risking troubles, finally they could meet their emigrated relatives again without punishment. They could become more US like. It was the end of obligatory Russian, the symbol of the whole tragedy.

There were more people speaking German available, the situation of English teaching was laughable. Russian teachers becoming English teachers overnight, being one lesson before their students. Self made teaching resources. The view of the beautiful modern coursebooks that were extremely expensive with the salaries common back then. Really, English was a harder choice practically, but the whole society seemed to demand it. They accepted the "English is the only important language" idea without criticism. It was an emotional decision for the society.

One of the main reasons for the government to push English so much in schools was (and still is) very pragmatic. If the population was better at German, there would be hardly anyone left in this country with low salaries, no international reputation, too much bureaucracy, lower quality imported goods. The UK or US are quite far, they require more sacrifice than our neighbours. Even as it is, thousands are leaving this country every year. Many have homes here and just go beyond the borders every day for work. Many moved to Germany or Austria. Doctors are just one example, but they are not the only ones. But English being number one in the schools for less academically successful kids is still a reliable way to keep a part of the population inside. And those kids are usually from families that won't pay for extra language classes.
4 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:42 am

Obvious Ogrim and myself are at differing ends of a wide spectrum on our impressions of English and it's role in the EU. And I do indeed respect everyone's opinion on the matter. Some others have voiced their opinions here. I won't go into mine any further other than to say I agree with Josquin in that English, imo, is not at risk of wiping out any other large EU language currently. This for me is a can of worms that will absolutely land me in hot water and I don't want to overload Ogrim's log, if anyone does want to talk with me on this, feel free to PM me. Needless to say I respect everyone's point of views as I already stated, and I actually didn't want to say more than what I did, but I was kind of asking for it by stating so little in the first place.

So once again, thank you kindly Ogrim for your explanations on your language learning path including your interest in Romansh as well as the further detail on the situation of Alsatian. It was indeed interesting.
1 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4169

Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:32 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:Obvious Ogrim and myself are at differing ends of a wide spectrum on our impressions of English and it's role in the EU. And I do indeed respect everyone's opinion on the matter. Some others have voiced their opinions here. I won't go into mine any further other than to say I agree with Josquin in that English, imo, is not at risk of wiping out any other large EU language currently. This for me is a can of worms that will absolutely land me in hot water and I don't want to overload Ogrim's log, if anyone does want to talk with me on this, feel free to PM me. Needless to say I respect everyone's point of views as I already stated, and I actually didn't want to say more than what I did, but I was kind of asking for it by stating so little in the first place.

So once again, thank you kindly Ogrim for your explanations on your language learning path including your interest in Romansh as well as the further detail on the situation of Alsatian. It was indeed interesting.


Actually I believe our views on English and its role are not as far apart as you may think. It is probably more regarding views on the EU's role in general where we are on opposite ends of the spectrum, and that is why I didn't want to enter into a discussion. I have very strong opinions on that point for both personal and professional reasons, but this is not the right place to go into that debate. If ever our paths cross I would be happy to have that discussion with you over a couple of beers. ;)

The way I understand the Forum rules it is OK to discuss language policy as long as it does not descend into a heated argument about (geo)politics in general. So I allow myself e.g. to be critical to the way the French state has treated minority langauges in this country. I also sometimes touch upon politics in general in my log (because frankly, I am a political anorak :ugeek: ), but I am always very careful to do so in a descriptive and neutral way to keep within the rules and avoid any political discussions. If ever I cross the line I hope the moderators will kindly draw my attention to it.

I thank you PM, and Josquin and Cavesa as well, for your contributions - at least it shows that people are reading my log :D . I must say though that the question about the role and dominance of English has been discussed to death over the years both on HTLAL and here on LLorg. Personally I find the topic is becoming a bit boring, so I refrain from entering that discussion myself, and my next post on this log will be about something else completely.

Edit: By the way, I like your mix of metaphors. I was trying to imagine how a can of worms can land you in hot water. :?
2 x
Ich grolle nicht


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests