Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

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Ogrim
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:13 pm

Russian
This week I have been focusing on expanding my Russian vocabulary. When I read books or news articles I realise there are still far too many words I don't know, or think I know but still need to check to make sure I don't confuse the meaning. It also means that I get hesitant when speaking because I have not internalised the words well enough to feel confident about using them correctly.

I have a very long list of words which I have highlighted in my Kindle when reading Russian novels, and I have started making "advanced" word lists based on these. To get the most out of it, I look up all nouns and verbs in my big dictionary and if necessary consult the Russian version of Wiktionary Викисловарь. For the nouns, I check how nominanitve plural, genitive singular and plural are formed, and if there are any other irregularities I also write them down. For verbs I make sure to note both imperfective and perfective infinitive, and any irregularities in conjugation. I also pay attention to stress changes which often happen (different stress in singular and plural or in verb conjugations). For verbs I also note if they are followed by prepositions and if so what noun case should follow. It is tedious and slow work, but I believe it gives results. The vocabulary is very varied, spanning from informal experessions and swear words via every-day words (like name of kitchen equipments) to high register words relating to religion, philosophy, politics and science. I list them in no particular order, and if necessary add the phrase where I found the word to get the context.

Arabic
I keep progressing slowly, but find it difficult to dedicate as much time to intensive study as I would like. I have been through another couple of lessons in my Langenscheidt course. I've also signed up to ArabicPod 101, and I find some of their stuff very useful. The only drawback is that they send me at least three or four e-mails every day, half of them pushing products they sell. I can live with that, but it is a bit annoying.

I continue to explore Arabic music as well. When I moved to Brussels in the mid-1990s, Raï music was all the rage, especially as Brussels had (and has) a large North African community. One hit you could hear in every pub and disco back then was Aicha by Cheb Khaled. Here is the official clip - the song starts of in French and then he sings in Arabic towards the end:



I can't help thinking that Aisha is a rather Westernised version of Raï though, so I've been looking for more "authentic" stuff as well, and here is another example with Khaled in a duet with Chaba Zahouania. Cheb/Chaba (Arabic: شابة - شاب) really means young, and is used as a title for Raï singers to distinguish them from Cha'abi singers (الشعبي) who are called "shaykh" شيخ - "old".

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Ogrim
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Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:09 am

Confession time: I've started Greek again. :mrgreen:

I wasn't planning on adding another language at this point, as I wanted to concentrate fully on bringing my Russian up to C-level and advance in Arabic, which is hard enough to keep you occupied most of your free time. However, I've been to Corfu for a week, and as I experienced when I went to Crete a few years ago, I just can't resist the Greek language when I hear it spoken or read it on street signs and in menus. I love Greece, the people, the culture, the climate, the food... I hope to return to explore more of Greece many times yet, and when I do I want to be able to communicate in Greek. I found that I deeply regret not having pursued my Greek studies from 3-4 years ago, so now is the time to make amends and get serious with the language.

Corfu (or Κέρκυρα in Greek) is a beautiful island. It is one of the northernmost islands in the Ionian archipelago, and from Kerkyra town on the eastside of the island you can see the Albanian coast. An interesting fact is that the island was never under the rule of the Ottoman empire. The Venetians settled early on the island, and they built a number of fortifications to resist the Ottoman attempts at invading. In the late 18th century Corfu was under French rule for a few years before it became a protectorate of the UK until 1864, when the Ionian islands were united with independent Greece. This means that you find many traces of Venetian and British presence on the island, but no old mosques or "Oriental" art as you may find on other Greek islands.

We stayed in a small village on the Western side of the island called Agios Gordis (Άγιος Γόρδης). It is quite touristy, but there are not that many hotels there, so most tourists stay in rented apartments, bungalows or villas. We rented a small bungalow, and the owner spoke only a few words of English, so that was when I got really angry with myself for not having continued learning Greek over the last few years. :x

Image

The old Corfu town, the "capital" of the island, is on the UNESCO world heritage list. The Venetian influence is really remarkable. If it were not for all the Orthodox churches and the road signs in Greek letters you could think you were somewhere in Italy. It is nice to sit in one of the many squares sipping a Greek coffee. One warning though: Be sure to have a look at the prices in the menu before ordering anything. Unfortunately in some places they try to squeeze as much money as they can from the tourists - I ended up paying 20 euros for four glasses of orange juice in one place there as I had not bothered to check the price list before ordering. I should say this only happened once though, and back in Agios Gordis everyone was very honest and friendly and prices were correct.

We spent one day in Corfu town, and I don't think it is worth a lot more time there. Better to rent a car, as we did, and drive around exploring the nature and the small villages, particularly in the north of the island. There you can visit sleepy villages and taste their local products, or you can find some very nice beaches and creeks that have not been invaded by the hoards of tourists visiting the island every year. Speaking of which, it was interesting to observe that, apart from the "usual suspects", i.e. Scandinavians, Brits, Dutch and Germans, there were a lot of tourists from neighbouring countries, in particular Italians (you can get there from Brindisi by ferry), but also Romanians, Serbs, Albanians and Macedonians. I also heard Russian spoken a few times, of course. If you are an extrovert polyglot (I am not :( ), you can practise a lot of languages in these places.

Getting back to language learning: I now need a plan to see how I can actively progress on the three languages I focus on. During the summer it won't be too difficult - although I am back to work it is very quiet and I can easily "steal" a little bit of time early in the morning or at the end of the working day. I also have a couple of weeks of vacation left in August. The bigger challenge will be to maintain a steady rhythm throughout the year and into the winter months. I'll see when I get there, but right now I am just enjoying redescovering Greek grammar and learning new words every day, and soon I will start exploring various native sources to keep the inspiration going.

P.S. I have slightly changed my profile, promoting Russian to B1. I also just want to say that the ratings are self-evaluations of my own abilities in the languages. I have not sat any official exams to verify the level. My Russian teacher claims I am B2, but I think my vocabulary is still too limited and my grammar mistakes too many to merit more than a B1 at this stage.
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blaurebell
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby blaurebell » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:34 am

How nice! My husband and I are just reading Gerald Durrell's My Family and other Animals out loud to each other and it really makes me want to visit Corfu too! I have never been to Greece myself, because the language seemed intimidating and I always need to know the local language when I'm travelling due to health stuff. One day perhaps!
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S7R
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby S7R » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:03 am

Ogrim wrote:Russian


Arabic
I keep progressing slowly, but find it difficult to dedicate as much time to intensive study as I would like. I have been through another couple of lessons in my Langenscheidt course. I've also signed up to ArabicPod 101, and I find some of their stuff very useful. The only drawback is that they send me at least three or four e-mails every day, half of them pushing products they sell. I can live with that, but it is a bit annoying.

I continue to explore Arabic music as well. When I moved to Brussels in the mid-1990s, Raï music was all the rage, especially as Brussels had (and has) a large North African community. One hit you could hear in every pub and disco back then was Aicha by Cheb Khaled. Here is the official clip - the song starts of in French and then he sings in Arabic towards the end:


Wow, you can understand cheb khaled songs !. I assume that you study Moroccan Arabic, right? I am a native Arabic speaker, but i can't understand them well, because it's far different from my dialect. :?

good luck :)
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Ogrim
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Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:56 am

blaurebell wrote:How nice! My husband and I are just reading Gerald Durrell's My Family and other Animals out loud to each other and it really makes me want to visit Corfu too! I have never been to Greece myself, because the language seemed intimidating and I always need to know the local language when I'm travelling due to health stuff. One day perhaps!


Yes we drove by the Durrells' house in the village of Kalami. I must admit I have never read anything by any of the Durrells, so for me it did not have that particular attraction. I do know that many English people visit Kalami because of the connection to the Durrells. It is even possible to rent the house, as it is owned by a Greek family. I am sorry about your health stuff, but I would think that in very touristy places like some of the Greek islands it would not be too much of an issue. In Kerkyra town I saw an English health clinic and my only encounter with a Greek doctor (due to a wasp sting) was no issue at all as he had studied in England and spoke with a perfect Oxford accent.

S7R wrote:Wow, you can understand cheb khaled songs !. I assume that you study Moroccan Arabic, right? I am a native Arabic speaker, but i can't understand them well, because it's far different from my dialect. :?

good luck :)


Hi S7R. To be honest I hardly understand a word of Cheb Khaled's songs in Arabic. I am still very much a beginner learning the language, and so far I only concentrate on Modern Standard Arabic. I hope one day to get as far as learning a dialect or two, but whether that would be Moroccan, Egyptian, Levantine or Gulf Arabic I don't know yet. Thing is, I always start listening to music in languages I learn at a very early stage. It stimulates me even if I don't get the meaning of the lyrics. I also use it as a kind of benchmark. After some weeks or months or even a year of studying I go back to a song I listened to and see how much more I can understand - it will tell me whether I've made any progress.

What Arabic dialect do you speak by the way?
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S7R
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby S7R » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:32 am

Ogrim wrote: I always start listening to music in languages I learn at a very early stage. It stimulates me even if I don't get the meaning of the lyrics. I also use it as a kind of benchmark. After some weeks or months or even a year of studying I go back to a song I listened to and see how much more I can understand - it will tell me whether I've made any progress.

What Arabic dialect do you speak by the way?


I speak the Gulf dialect.
I like your idea that you listen to songs and assess your progress in the language.
But since you are studying Modern Standard Arabic, it is better to look for Modern Standard Arabic songs.
I see that the dialect use in Maghreb countries like dialect of Cheb Khaled is very different from Modern Standard Arabic.
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Ogrim
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Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:36 pm

S7R wrote:I like your idea that you listen to songs and assess your progress in the language.
But since you are studying Modern Standard Arabic, it is better to look for Modern Standard Arabic songs.
I see that the dialect use in Maghreb countries like dialect of Cheb Khaled is very different from Modern Standard Arabic.


Do you know any artists who sing in MSA? I've always assumed most traditional and pop music in Arab countries would use the dialect, but maybe I am wrong.
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S7R
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby S7R » Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:09 pm

Ogrim wrote:Do you know any artists who sing in MSA? I've always assumed most traditional and pop music in Arab countries would use the dialect, but maybe I am wrong.


Yes. you're right most Arabic songs in different dialects. actually i don't know about pop music. but here are some songs

these are some songs in MSA for Faia Younan
https://youtu.be/mWPB2AcF13A
https://youtu.be/HBY7kuwxLTE

and this one for Kadim Al Sahir. he has alot of songs in MSA
https://youtu.be/My4QebBZQGY

and here with english subtitle
https://youtu.be/7ho1WFn79e0
https://youtu.be/ZSuHqW96XSU
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Ogrim
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Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:28 am

S7R wrote:these are some songs in MSA for Faia Younan
https://youtu.be/mWPB2AcF13A
https://youtu.be/HBY7kuwxLTE

and this one for Kadim Al Sahir. he has alot of songs in MSA
https://youtu.be/My4QebBZQGY

and here with english subtitle
https://youtu.be/7ho1WFn79e0
https://youtu.be/ZSuHqW96XSU


Thanks a lot for these suggestions. I really like the songs of Faia Younan. I googled her and found out that she moved from Syria to Sweden when she was 11 years old and she was also the first Middle Eastern artist ever to crowdfund her debut. By the way, I saw in another post of yours that you live in Dubai. I visited some friends in Dubai last year. A very interesting place, to say the least. A bit crazy, if you allow me - all that development kind of takes your breath away. That visit was a big incentive for me to start learning Arabic though.

One of the strengths of this Forum is the diversity of its members. It is a real treat to be able to get tips and advice from people around the globe who can help you discover the culture behind your target languages and expand your horizons. It makes language learning so much more interesting and motivating. For me, discovering the Arabic language and the Arabic world is not about politics, religion or conflicts. It is about people's daily life, the music they listen to, the books they read, the movies they watch and the food they eat. Maybe I sound a bit naive, but I strongly believe that through learning languages and embracing other cultures with an open mind, you can get rid of prejudices and make the world just a tiny bit better.

On a more prosaic note, my Langenscheidt course is introducing the Arabic verb structures at "TGV speed" and it is a bit daunting. There certainly is a structure, but the fact that you not only have suffixes, but also prefixes to determine person and number makes it somewhat more complicated than e.g. Spanish or German verbs. Not to mention the moods and the derivational categories indicating concepts such as intensive, causative, reciprocal, reflexive, frequentative etc. I can see myself spending a lot of time struggling with the verbs. It is fun though, in a somewhat masochistic kind of way. ;)

Greek feels like a walk in the park in comparison. It helps that I already spent time on Greek in the past, so a lot is coming back quickly. I think that above all it will be a question of practice and vocabulary acquisition to get to a B1 level in a reasonable timeframe. I am not setting myself any particular goal, but I want to get through (and master) the Langenscheidt Greek book by the end of the year, and then find some more advance material and also start using "native" stuff, like new articles, short stories etc.

Since I have so much fun :?: with Greek and Arabic, I have neglected Russian somewhat over the last couple of weeks. I try to read a few pages every night before going to sleep, and I also skim through the main news on the websites of Коммерсант and Комсомольская правда in the morning. I'll get around to working more intensively on it soon, but right now I just feel the need to move forward with my other two TLs so I don't lose what I am learning by neglect. In my experience at the beginner stage it is crucial to keep the momentum by focused learning every day.
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iguanamon
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby iguanamon » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:11 pm

Ogrim wrote:... One of the strengths of this Forum is the diversity of its members. It is a real treat to be able to get tips and advice from people around the globe who can help you discover the culture behind your target languages and expand your horizons. It makes language learning so much more interesting and motivating. For me, discovering the Arabic language and the Arabic world is not about politics, religion or conflicts. It is about people's daily life, the music they listen to, the books they read, the movies they watch and the food they eat. Maybe I sound a bit naive, but I strongly believe that through learning languages and embracing other cultures with an open mind, you can get rid of prejudices and make the world just a tiny bit better. ...

Well said, Ogrim! You're not naive. This is one of the main reasons why I learn languages. I believe it does help to make the world just a little bit better. Worlds that I never knew existed before opened up for me thanks to learning languages. Language-learning is a humbling experience in many ways. The ability of understanding and expression does not come easily at first but consistency and perseverance help to bring it about gradually. As we grow in our language-learning childhood, we discover new and different aspects of a culture to explore. Learning the language puts us "on the inside" in a way that we can't be from a monolingual perspective. Learning a language helps us to put ourselves in another culture's shoes so to speak and once having walked in another culture's shoes for a while it is difficult not to appreciate it and come to admire many aspects of it. It's what motivates me and makes all the hard work and effort worthwhile.
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