Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

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Ogrim
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Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:41 pm

Xenops wrote:I recently watched "(Hotel) Beau Séjour", a short crime show in Flemish. I thought it was well done.


Thanks for the tips. I made a quick search - doesn't seem exactly like my kind of show but if I can find a way to watch the first episode I may give it a try.

I think I've mentioned before that I very rearly come across a TV show, series or even movie that I actually enjoy. I get bored too quickly from watching, but I can spend hours reading without getting tired. The only series I really like are the ones based around historical facts and persons, like the Spanish series Isabel, or The Tudors. Currently I am watching Victoria, the new British series about Queen Victoria. As it is in English, I don't really count it as language learning in any way. As most British period drama it is very well done though.
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renaissancemedici
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby renaissancemedici » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:20 am

I also like historical TV series and documentaries. I also watch old movies on YouTube, even black and white ones if well made. And series based on books.

I see what you mean about reading though. My own ambitions concerning German revolve around texts, translations between languages etc. Your log is a great example of using languages to enrich your intellectual life.

Between you and Josquin I am getting an interest in classical music, especially the German language ones (although Italian is always nice). Thanks for that!
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I use Assimil right now as a starting point, but at the same time I am building the foundation for further studies of German.

Assimil German with ease: 8 / 100

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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:57 pm

My Arabic studies are gaining a bit more speed again, but Arabic verbs are driving me crazy, and I am somewhat stuck around lessons 8 to 10 of the Langenscheidt course where they introduce a whole range of different verb forms (or derived stems as they are also called). This, and my inability to absorb and retain vocabulary efficiently is what has made my studies a bit frustrating lately. I am really wondering whether Arabic is a language "suited" to self-study. Sure, with enough time and effort it should be doable, but the help of a teacher would probably ease the pain. Right now I just don't have the time to taken any regular classes or one-to-one lessons, so I'll just struggle along on my own and take it step by step.

With Russian I am getting on nicely. I never thought I would see the day when I could say that Russian is easy :? . Sure, when it comes to speaking and writing I am still a long way off reaching a C1, but reading and listening is so much easier than just six or eight months ago. I guess extensive reading has helped a lot, as well as more regular consumption of TV news and youtube videos in Russian. And after struggling with Arabic verbs, Russian grammar is actually fun :) .

When I first decided to study languages at university I could probably have picked any language, because the discovery of a new language was in itself the biggest motivating factor. (For various other reasons, some by pure chance, I ended up studying Romance languages.) Nowadays I need some additional purpose for making the effort. So in order to "re-motivate" myself for Arabic I need to listen to Arabic music, visit Arabic websites (just to realise how much I miss out on because I don't understand anything) and watch a few minutes of Aljazeera.

One of the new artists I like is Humood Alkhuder, and I've already posted one or two of his videos. He has recently released a new song called كن فضولياً (Be Curious) and it is a nice little song expressing faith in science and rational thinking. Here is the videoclip:



And I'll end with a piece of classical music. You may have seen that I have put "Ich grolle nicht" in my signature. This is the title of a poem by Heinrich Heine, and Robert Schumann has set music to it - it is one of the songs of the cycle Dichterliebe. Here is a nice version with the Belgian bass-baritone José van Dam.

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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:11 pm

In Norway there is a long tradition of reading crime novels during Easter, and most TV channels will air crime series specailly made for the Easter Holidays. In Norwegian we even have a word for it: Påskekrim. Why is this so? Some people claim it is because the story about the crucifixion is a crime story of sort, but a more mundane explanation can be found in this story (it is in Norwegian - nynorsk). It basically says that in 1923, the day before Palm Sunday the Norwegian newspaper Aftenposten had a headline saying that the train to Bergen had been robbed during the night. It looked like a great news story, but it was actually an advertisement for a crime novel written by two of Norway's leading authors at the time. The book became a success, and in following years publishers would make sure to launch their crime novels in the days before Easter. The thing is, most Norwegians go on holiday the week between Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday, so it is a time to relax and spend time skiing (if you go to a hytte), playing games with the family and reading not-to-difficult books.

I've read hundreds of crime novels, both at Easter and any other time of the year, and I have actually become a bit tired with the whole genre, but I thought I would at least read one crime novel this Easter, just to keep up with my Norwegian roots ;) , so I've chosen a book in German, written by an Austrian writer who goes under the pseudonym Halvar Beck, with a story set in Norway. It is sort of a crime thriller. The title of the book is Fjord, the story being about a murder happening in a small isolated village in a Norwegian fjord. Then other horrible things happen. So far it is OK, but not very original. The author clearly knows a thing or two about Norway, but some details leave me a bit incredulous.

I am currently in a Germanic mood, so a lot of my reading has been in German, just as I am mostly exploring the music of German and Austrian composers right now. I still have some pages left of Das brennende Herz. This book is very well written. It tells the story of Gustav Mahler's last days in the form of a novel, and it focuses very much on the relation between him and his unfaithful wife, Alma. We get to hear both versions of the story, his and hers, partly through conversations they had individually with Sigmund Freud, who was the psychologist both of them turned to for help.

It seems like great composers are often unhappy or have serious problems in their real life. That was the case for Mahler as it was for Schubert, whose biography I read some weeks ago. I don't think having difficulties in your life is a prerequisite for becoming a great artist, but great artists certainly seem to be able to channel their grief, anger or sorrow into great works of art.

Once I am done with the Mahler novel and the crime book I'll turn to reading in other languages again. The Tschaikovsky biography in Russian is waiting, and I have several books in French, Spanish, Catalan and Italian on my to-read list, as well as a couple in Romansh which I had planned to read a long time ago. Thankfully summer is getting closer - it is the period of the year when I read the most.
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MamaPata
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Long lost: Arabic and Latin.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby MamaPata » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:11 pm

What's the Tchaikovskii biography called? I'll have to look out for it.
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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:47 pm

MamaPata wrote:What's the Tchaikovskii biography called? I'll have to look out for it.


It is simply called Пётр Ильич Чайковский, the author is Олеся Талалова. I bought a pdf version here on Litres.ru. It is quite a big pdf file, because the book is packed with illustrations. It would not be very practical for a small e-book reader like Kindle, but on my iPad it looks great. I am looking forward to reading it, so far I have just been skimming through a few pages (mostly looking at the illustrations...)

I've been to Prague for four days, as my son played a European footbal tournament there. His team got fifth in their age category (U15), which was actually a bit unfair because they conceded only one goal and scored nine in five matches. However, due to the way the group qualifications worked out, they did not get into the group of the final four. My son scored a beautiful goal though, so he is very happy. :D

Prague is a beautiful city, but there were just too many tourists there over the Easter weekend, and I heard more British English, French, German, Russian and Scandinavian than Czech. It was however interesting to see that I could sometimes make sense of things I saw written thanks to my Russian. I also discovered a "false friend". At first I was surprised to see street signs everywhere with the word "Pozor!", but then I understood it means "Attention!" or "Caution!". In Russian "Позор" means shame or disgrace.

This short trip to the Czech Republic has increased my appetite for learning another Slavic language, and Czech would be a strong contender, although I have also been thinking about Croatian/Serbian. I won't make any decision at this point in time, as I just don't want to embark on another new language right now. Maybe later in the year.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:29 am

Hey Ogrim,

I hope you are well. I've spent a good portion of various parts of my day reading through your log from page 1 to 22. I haven't read anyone else's log so thoroughly. It's a very interesting read. I didn't read every single post, but certainly covered more of your log than I have anyone else's. I don't mean to compare and say that your log is better than whoever else's because you're the cool kid on the block. No, your log is simply interesting to me given your life and relationship with languages, which are for the most part languages I am studying, have studied, want to study or am interested in from a distance. And when I arrived at whatever page it was (16 or so), I re-read your replies to my questions regarding languages in your life. Very interesting.

Then there's Arabic, a language I've never really had an interest in until recently. Your journey with Arabic is engaging for me as a reader, it's drawn me in. The Langenscheidt course looks like it suits your needs perfectly, yet for me, were I to ever begin learning this language, it's not an option simply because I do not understand German beyond crude basics at best, and heavily relying on fading knowledge of Dutch sentence structure and verb conjugations. Anyway, I noticed you were not impressed at all with the Assimil Arabic course, which I was disappointed to read, truth be told. That's a shame. If I go down an Arabic path at some point, I'd definitely be looking at courses from a French base either entirely, or predominantly. I've got far too many English based courses in several languages that will last me a lifetime and then some, thus, a French base is certainly a preference. Any recommendations offhandedly? If not, no problemo, I can certainly do my own research, and I have been distracting myself with Amazon.fr searches of various kinds. Let's just say my wish lists are far far far too long for a supposedly non-avid reader.

On a side note, I also enjoyed your brief descriptions of Costa Rica, a country I visited for a month 10 years back and thoroughly enjoyed, your insights on Nice and Grasse, your revival of Greek (and visit to Corfu) and reigniting Dutch... it's all interesting to me! Can't say I read much about your Russian, but if I ever take on that language (it scares me, but so does Arabic!), I know that I'll be revisiting your log among others.

So, I had a couple of points I wanted to raise with regards to Arabic dialects and variants. It is such a fragmented language, which makes sourcing learning resources tricky, and actually means that despite the apparent good amount of resources available out there, well when you narrow your chosen dialect down, there's much less to choose from. On the other hand the richness and the diversity of the language, or group of languages/dialects, well is fantastic, but yes admittedly challenging. Okay, so here I'm quoting you from almost two years ago:

Ogrim wrote:I am kind of frustrated by how difficult it is to find good beginner courses in Arabic. At least I am happy I purchased that Linguaphone course back in the 80s (the course is a 1981 edition), because it meets most, if not all of my "requirements" for a good course.


Choices are limited for courses it seems, not just due to dialectal variations, but also, naturally due to one's specific requirements. Just commenting, not searching for too much of a response there necessarily.

Ogrim wrote:Many other courses fail in my view because a) they only use transliteration, as is the case of some of the Colloquial Arabic courses (which by the way teach dialects, not MSA), or they have the transliteration on the same page as the Arabic text. I sincerely believe that this is an obstacle to learning to read the script well. You easily become distracted or even dependent on the transliteration and the "temptation" to go straight to the transliteration rather than trying to figure out the Arabic script will always be there.


I want to quote someone from Amazon.com commenting on the Hugo Arabic in Three Months

O. Shanaa wrote:First off, I am a student of Arabic and have been studying both Modern Standard Arabic (fusHa) and Levantine Colloquial Arabic ('amiyyeh) for awhile. Additionally, I am Palestinian, so I'm quite familiar with what is and isn't suitable for the real world.

Most Arabic books are terrible, terrible books. The problems are numerous, including: teaching you the rather user-unfriendly writing system in the first chapter and writing in Arabic script after that, having script that's way too tiny, leaving out diacritics that are vital for learners, teaching you tourist phrases in incorrect Arabic and other such things, leaving out grammar or using way too much grammatical jargon that you can't make any sense of it....

This book is different. When I found this book, I looked through it and instantly noticed that it teaches spoken Arabic that was very familiar to me - this is the same Arabic I hear spoken in my house! (The author is Jordanian; the dialect taught by this book is used mostly in Palestine, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon.) I was very surprised, as no other book I had come across taught the spoken Arabic that is /actually used/ in Arab homes and businesses.

Other reviews were disappointed because of the use of the transliteration system and the complete absence of Arabic script. One must understand that colloquial Arabic and modern standard Arabic are quite different. The former is what you speak, the latter is what you read with and give speeches with. Colloquial Arabic /is not written./ Thus, one shouldn't expect a colloquial Arabic book to use Arabic script. I found that the transliteration system was the clearest one I have come across yet AND that it really facilitates learning.

Also of vital importance is that this book explains grammar in a lucid way instead of getting bogged down in jargon, as most other books do. There are very, very few resources for people wanting to learn the nuts and bolts of colloquial Arabic and this book does an excellent job of it.

I very highly recommend this book.

Note: As I said, this book teaches the dialects used in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine and Jordan. Arabic dialects do differ in varying amounts from each other. If you use this book with the intention of using it in Egypt, it will work well enough; if you read this book and then go to Morocco or Algeria, it will be essentially useless. Do your research on dialect differences.


Okay, I'm not attempting to promote Hugo's courses. I do like them, but that's not my the reviewer's point that I want to emphasise. I also read similar complaints regarding transliteration for other beginning Arabic courses. So, I think this reviewer has a point. It seems colloquial spoken Arabic should not necessarily be represented with the Arabic script. Maybe there's a legitimate place in such courses for transliteration and that place is not necessarily to simply make things supposedly easier for the learner, but more to do with (as per the reviewer above) colloquial Arabic not being a written language?

I also read that MSA is the language used in media, official speeches, newspapers. Are you expecting to understand colloquial Arabic down the track, or through improving your level of MSA? Or can we assume that those who would usually speak colloquial language in their hometown can and will easily revert to a kind of MSA spoken language with foreigners? As an offside thought, how prevalent is MSA throughout the Arabic speaking nations? Just some thoughts, and I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive (upon re-reading I seem to be lacking the diplomacy to make it sound nicer, because I am being nice here) - I mean only to pry in a friendly manner and open some discussion on the topic of variants of Arabic.

Xenops wrote:I recently watched "(Hotel) Beau Séjour", a short crime show in Flemish. I thought it was well done.


Hey Xenops,
I watched this series too. I rather enjoyed it as well, and thought it was quite well done too. My Dutch is fading though, and unlike Ogrim, my Dutch comprehension of Nederlands from Nederland is much better than Nederlands van België. Anyway, I second Xenops the recommendation Ogrim. I also enjoyed the Belgian series (in French) called "The Break". Slow to get moving but once it did, it drew me in and I really enjoyed the few twists later on. However, if you're looking for a German series, which I watched dubbed in French on Netflix, you cannot go past "Dark". I have recommended it already elsewhere on the forum. The first two series I mentioned above I'd give 8 and 7.5 out of 10, but for Dark, I'd rate it easily 9.5 or more. Definitely worth a look.
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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:06 pm

Hi PM,

First of all, thank you for your nice words. You are flattering me! I never know if what I write is really that interesting to anyone else but me, so I hardly think of my "audience" when I write, but I am always happy to get a "heart" or two, because at least it means some people have appreciated my musings.

You raise a lot of issues, and I don't have time to go into all of it right now, so I limit myself to some of your questions/observations regarding Arabic:

The question of dialects vs. MSA always comes up when you decide to take on a language like Arabic. I've seen a lot of people recommend starting with MSA and then moving on to a dialect, and just as many people recommending the exact opposite. For me it comes down to why you want to learn Arabic and what you want to do with it. If I were to move to Dubai in six months, I would most probably go with the course Colloquial Gulf Arabic, even if it is written in Latin script, because then I would want to be able to communicate with people in their langauge. However, I am not going to move to Dubai or any other Arabic speaking place (unless something really incredible happens in my life), so my main goal is not to be able to speak Arabic. I want first and foremost to be able to read Arabic books, journals and newspapers, and ideally also to understand Arabic as it is spoken on TV channels like Aljazeera. In fact, I am "only" aiming for "passive" knowledge of Arabic (insofar passive means not producing spoken and written Arabic yourself). That is why I focus on MSA, and that is why I said what I did about transliteration. I found that always depending on transliteration slowed down my ability to interpret and get used to reading Arabic script. I do agree with the point made by the guy you quote regarding tiny scripts - small fonts seems to be a general problem with Arabic, just have a look at the Arabic Wikipedia for example. I compensate for that by reading on my iPad, which allows me to zoom in on any small print. I also do think one is better off learning to do without short vowel signs quite early on, if the aim is to be able to read authentic Arabic texts. However as a learner it means that you need good audio material for the texts in order to know how to pronounce the words correctly.

PeterMollenburg wrote:I also read that MSA is the language used in media, official speeches, newspapers. Are you expecting to understand colloquial Arabic down the track, or through improving your level of MSA? Or can we assume that those who would usually speak colloquial language in their hometown can and will easily revert to a kind of MSA spoken language with foreigners? As an offside thought, how prevalent is MSA throughout the Arabic speaking nations? Just some thoughts, and I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive (upon re-reading I seem to be lacking the diplomacy to make it sound nicer, because I am being nice here) - I mean only to pry in a friendly manner and open some discussion on the topic of variants of Arabic.


Yo do not come off as aggressive, and you ask some very pertinent questions. If I manage to stay the course and get my Arabic to a decent level (for the moment I would be content if I reach B1 in a year or two), I may try to pick up a dialect, but it is not something I feel that I must do. As for Arab speakers' ability to revert to MSA, from what I've read and experienced it very much depends on their level of education. In Arabic-speaking countries, MSA is a language they learn in school and Classical Arabic is the language of religion (for Musliims). It is also the language of newspapers as you say, and most literature is written in MSA, although dialectalisms and colloquialisms may be more frequent, depending on the author. University-educated people will mostly have a good grasp of MSA, although they will hardly ever speak it, except in very formal circumstances or as a "lingua franca" with speakers of other Arabic dialects.

Just an anecdote: When I visited friends in Dubai a couple of years ago, we went on a desert safari. In the group there was a man from Algeria married to a French woman. The driver of the 4x4 was from Oman. The Algerian and the Omani engaged in a lively conversation in Arabic. As far as I know Algerian is very different from Omani Gulf Arabic, and afterwards I asked the Algerian if they had spoken MSA. He replied that the Omani driver had spoken Gulf Arabic but using some MSA words here and there, while the Algerian himself had spoken MSA "imperfectly" as he sometimes had used Algerian words which the Omani did not really understand. Still, they were able to communicate quite well with each other, and had had some laughs because of misunderstandings.

Anyway, I noticed you were not impressed at all with the Assimil Arabic course, which I was disappointed to read, truth be told. That's a shame.


I cannot say that the Assimil course is really bad per se, I think Assimil just don't suit my way of learning. I acutally enjoyed Assimil Russian, but only from lesson 30 onwards. I may pick up the Arabic course again once I am done with Langenscheidt, but then I will start somewhere in the middle. Hopefully the audio should also be better and more natural for the second half of the book, for the first few lessons it is just horribly slow and with an intonation you will never hear in normal speech.
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iguanamon
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby iguanamon » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:32 pm

The audio is my biggest complaint with Assimil. It keeps me from using the course. I understand the principle behind why they do it that way but it doesn't work for me either.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Arabic and more

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:06 pm

Ogrim wrote:Hi PM,

First of all, thank you for your nice words.


You’re welcome Ogrim. Obviously you said a lot more than what I’ve quoted above, and I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write back and shed some light on my ponderings. Thanks for elaborating on your reasoning in opting to learn MSA and under what kinds of circumstances you might have chosen to put the learning of colloquial Arabic at the forefront of an Arabic learning adventure. It was also useful to me, that you shared some anecdotes with regards to Arabic speakers from different countries communicating amongst themselves in MSA or an MSA-colloquial Arabic mix.

It’s reassuring for me, that your reason for not liking the Assimil Arabic course stems from not liking the method together with audio made for snails. I like starting out with slow audio and Arabic is a beast I’d like to analyse thoroughly from many angles.

Btw, I quite enjoyed the Irish song Mo Ghille Mear you posted a few pages or so back in your log.
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