Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Romanian, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Fri May 06, 2022 7:46 am

The last few weeks have been very hectic but also very interesting. I've just been five days to the Netherlands to visit my son and do some tourism. We went by car, which meant that we had the liberty of movement around part of the country. As distances are relatively short in NL, we managed to visit Delft, The Hague, Amsterdam, Leiden, Utrecht, Kinderdijk (area of windmills, a Unesco heritage site) and Keukenhof (a flower garden, mostly tulips, open only one month per year). The more I see of this country, the more I like it, in my view the Dutch manage to keep a nice balance between tradition and modernity, and people were friendly and open in a no-nonsense way.

I managed to speak some Dutch. In a few instances they would switch to English as soon as they heard I was a foreigner, but with one waiter I actually had a small conversation that went on for more than two sentences - she said that I sounded Flemish. :) I also had a fun conversation in a pizzeria in a small village close to Keukenhof, it was a family restaurant and the Italian couple running it only spoke Dutch, Italian and some Spanish, so we ended up mixing the three languages during our time there. I am really going to work seriously on my Dutch now, as I most certainly will go back quite regularly as long as my son is living there.

The week before the trip to the Netherlands we were in Salamanca, Spain, for a long weekend. There was a family celebration we did not want to miss - it should have taken place two years ago but because of the pandemic it had been postponed until now. I love Salamanca, it was my first real meeting with Spain, it is where I met my wife, and its history, monuments and university are an important part of me. I always read some of the work of Unamuno when I am there, and also this time I went through some chapters of Del sentimiento trágico de la vida, which I would say is his most important philosophical work.

I keep reading Latin every day, but I've spent more time on Classical Greek lately, and yesterday I got the good news from Amazon that volume one of the Italian-based course Athenaze is finally available. I ordered it months ago but it was out of stock. Now it should arrive today, and I am really looking forward to it, as volume 2 is still a bit too hard for me, and I need to consolidate the basic grammar and vocabulary.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Romanian, Arabic and more

Postby Le Baron » Fri May 06, 2022 9:11 am

Ogrim wrote:we managed to visit Delft, The Hague, Amsterdam, Leiden, Utrecht


Now why didn't you knock on my door! 8-)

Interesting that she said you sounded Flemish. I see your localisation is Alsace, so you're obviously mostly speaking French. Similar to the situation I was in and it caused me to transfer some sounds of French into Dutch. Even now people assume this of me. Or they think I'm French speaking Dutch as a foreigner. I've even been disbelieved when telling them I'm actually English!

That defaulting to English can be tiresome, but is easily thwarted by replying back in another language (and you have plenty to choose from!) which will quickly move things back to Dutch.
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Re: Ogrim's language experiences - Russian, Romansh, Romanian, Arabic and more

Postby Ogrim » Sat May 07, 2022 11:08 am

Le Baron wrote:
Ogrim wrote:we managed to visit Delft, The Hague, Amsterdam, Leiden, Utrecht


Now why didn't you knock on my door! 8-)

Interesting that she said you sounded Flemish. I see your localisation is Alsace, so you're obviously mostly speaking French. Similar to the situation I was in and it caused me to transfer some sounds of French into Dutch. Even now people assume this of me. Or they think I'm French speaking Dutch as a foreigner. I've even been disbelieved when telling them I'm actually English!

That defaulting to English can be tiresome, but is easily thwarted by replying back in another language (and you have plenty to choose from!) which will quickly move things back to Dutch.


I first studied Dutch in Brussels many years ago, and obviously my teachers were Flemish, so I guess I must have internalised certain Flemish sounds and pronunciation patterns. And I do have problems with the way the Dutch pronounce the R-sound, so I tend to use a thrilled R which is more like they way the Flemish pronounce it, espcially in combination with the gutural G- or CH-sound.

I'll try your tips about responding back in another language next time. Maybe Romansh. :D
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Ogrim » Fri Jun 17, 2022 4:19 pm

I finally decided on a new title. A krambu is an old-fashioned Norwegian word for a convenience store in the countryside that would sell almost anything: non-perishable food, clothing articles, DIY stuff, things people may need in their daily life. So it is the same old log, but hopefully the title covers better what I am doing.

The last month my study priorities changed (again). I've taken up Croatian! My wife and I are going to Croatia at the end of July, and on an impulse I decided to try to do as much Croatian as possible in two months to see where that would take me. My first impression was that in many ways it reminds me of Russian, but there is also a lot that is different, so I don't expect my Russian to be of very great help in learning Croatian. It feels good to start on a second Slavic language though, I have lost somewhat the motivation for advancing in Russian. Not so much because of politics, but rather because I have really wanted to advance in my studies of Classical Greek and Latin. And, to be honest, I don't see myself visiting Russia in the near future. I had hoped to do a trip to Saint Petersburg once the Covid thing was over, but that is not an option for the time being. As for Croatian, I hope to keep the motivation going after our two-weeks trip there, because I obviously won't get beyond a weak A1 with two months of study under my belt. We'll see, but for now I have a lot of fun learning basic Croatian. And I guess the moment comes when I will once more feel really motivated for picking up Russian again.

I do keep going with Classical Greek though. I really like Athenaze - it is a good course, because it introduces you to a lot of text from the outset and a lot of repetition of certain verbs and phrases throughout the texts. Although it is meant to use visual clues like Lingua Latina per se illustrata, I don't think it is as efficient in its method, but it certainly has its advantages and I find it a very good supplement to Reading Greek.

I also try to work on my Dutch on a regular basis. I have started on a biography of Erasmus Roterodamus written in Dutch. It is a very thorough study of his life and work, and as Erasmus is a person that has always fascinated me, I am really enjoying reading this when I have had enough of Greek syntax and Croatian morphology :D
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Ogrim
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Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Ogrim » Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:47 pm

Often when I start a new language I tend to spend a lot of time looking for good course books and other resources, and I end up buying more than I can realistically use, which is a waste of time and money, especially if after a few months I stop learning the language. So in order not to make the same mistake with Croatian, I've decided just to go with Colloquial Croatian in e-book format. The only additional resource I may use from time to time is what I can find on YouTube for beginner Croatian - mainly as a listening practice. Any other material will only be purchased if and when I get really committed to taking Croatian beyond the beginner level. I know myself too well to realise that this is not a guarantee - in six months' time I may have other priorities, like going back to Arabic or Russian or Romanian or (let's hope not), learn something completely different. :?

I am not giving up on Greek and Latin though. As for Latin, the Legentibus app keeps adding new titles to their collection of audiobooks and read-alongs, both beginner, intermediate and original texts, and I try to do at least half an hour of listening or listening/reading every day. Right now I'm working my way through Fabulae Apulei Renarratae, an adaptation of Apuleius' stories at intermediate level. Next up is De Senectute by Cicero, which is the original text without adaptation. I prefer to alternate between easy(ish) and difficult texts. Oh, and I have also picked up again De Trinitate by St. Augustin. This one does not exist as an audiobook, so it is text only.

With Greek I just continue to work with the first volume of the Italian version of Athenaze and with the texts in Reading Greek, alternating between the two. In addition I also regularly read some verses or chapters of NT Greek with French parallel text. I still have a long way to go before I can pick up Aristotle in the original and enjoy it.

So far my study languages. I don't really study Dutch as such right now, but I read some Dutch every evening before going to bed, as the Erasmus biography is really interesting. It is very well written and it also gives a great insight into how life was in the Netherlands at the end of the 15th and the beginning of the 16th century. Erasmus was also a great Latinist, so I really need to find some original texts of his for future reading.
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Radioclare » Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:05 pm

Ogrim wrote:I've taken up Croatian! My wife and I are going to Croatia at the end of July, and on an impulse I decided to try to do as much Croatian as possible in two months to see where that would take me. My first impression was that in many ways it reminds me of Russian, but there is also a lot that is different, so I don't expect my Russian to be of very great help in learning Croatian. It feels good to start on a second Slavic language though, I have lost somewhat the motivation for advancing in Russia

I don't know how I managed to miss that you've started learning Croatian :shock:

I think Russian will help with guessing the meaning of words, particularly when they're written down. I definitely haven't found Croatian to be as much help as I'd hoped in learning Russian, but I think Croatian grammar is significantly easier than Russian in some ways (genitive plurals, for example) so you may find some things refreshingly easy with coming to Croatian after Russian.

Sretno! :)
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Iversen » Thu Jun 23, 2022 9:02 am

Ogrim wrote:A krambu is an old-fashioned Norwegian word for a convenience store in the countryside that would sell almost anything

A quite wellchosen word - from many angles. The "bu" is related to 'living somewhere', and the 'kram' is an old word for sundry merchandise. In Danish we have the expression "han/hun kan sit kram" (he/she knows his/her handicraft well), and the person who sells the "kram" is a "kræmmer". An "isenkræmmer" sells metal things, a word that comes from Low German "isenkremer" - 'ironmonger' - maybe the same word came to Norway through the merchants at "Bryggen" in Bergen. A cone (with edible goodies) is a "kræmmerhus" - it is traditionally put on your Christmas tree, but if the filling is ice then it is an "isvaffel" (presumably a loanword from Dutch or Flemish), not a "kræmmerhus".

Unfortunately there is a slightly dubious note to "kræmmer" in isolation (a sales person who is a bit too clever), but this note is totally absent from your new dwelling at the "krambod" (as it is called in Danish).

Btw. sorry for mixing Danish into the equation, but my Danish is better than my Norwegian.
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Ogrim » Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:49 pm

Iversen wrote:
Ogrim wrote:A krambu is an old-fashioned Norwegian word for a convenience store in the countryside that would sell almost anything

A quite wellchosen word - from many angles. The "bu" is related to 'living somewhere', and the 'kram' is an old word for sundry merchandise. In Danish we have the expression "han/hun kan sit kram" (he/she knows his/her handicraft well), and the person who sells the "kram" is a "kræmmer". An "isenkræmmer" sells metal things, a word that comes from Low German "isenkremer" - 'ironmonger' - maybe the same word came to Norway through the merchants at "Bryggen" in Bergen. A cone (with edible goodies) is a "kræmmerhus" - it is traditionally put on your Christmas tree, but if the filling is ice then it is an "isvaffel" (presumably a loanword from Dutch or Flemish), not a "kræmmerhus".

Unfortunately there is a slightly dubious note to "kræmmer" in isolation (a sales person who is a bit too clever), but this note is totally absent from your new dwelling at the "krambod" (as it is called in Danish).

Btw. sorry for mixing Danish into the equation, but my Danish is better than my Norwegian.


I find it very interesting to see how the word is used in Danish. In Norwegian we do have the word kremmer, but it is not used much nowadays, and my parents would use it in a pejorative way, about someone who only thought about money and would buy and sell anything as long as they could make a profit.

I've never heard the use "kram" used in the sense of the expression you mention, so that is new to me. In Norwegian we also have "isenkram", but I think that is a loan from Danish or possibly through the Hansa trade, but later on in Norway you would normally find "jernvarehandel" with the same meaning.

We also have kremmerhus, again a word we took from Danish I'm sure.
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby tractor » Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:36 pm

Ogrim wrote:In Norwegian we do have the word kremmer, but it is not used much nowadays, and my parents would use it in a pejorative way, about someone who only thought about money and would buy and sell anything as long as they could make a profit.

I hear it used quite often, in exactly this way.

I guess the word krimskrams is also related.
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Re: Ogrim's Krambu - a plethora of languages, mostly European, both old and new

Postby Daniel N. » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:06 pm

Ogrim wrote:So in order not to make the same mistake with Croatian, I've decided just to go with Colloquial Croatian in e-book format. The only additional resource I may use from time to time is what I can find on YouTube for beginner Croatian - mainly as a listening practice.


Good luck! There's also a free web site, actually two free web sites, hr4eu and easy-croatian.com - the second one might help you if you like grammar.
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Check Easy Croatian (very useful for Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian as well)


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