My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

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Skynet
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Re: My 10 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Skynet » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:16 pm

Cavesa wrote:If you don't mind me asking:
Why are you using only bilingual sources?
-you are not starting from zero, and you find the bilingual resources for beginners "painfully slow"
-you say you mind too much English in your resources
-most of the best French resources I've ever seen are monolingual
-a lot of your courses are very similar to each other
-when it comes to the monolingual resources, it is not true that everything new is not serious and good enough :-)


Cavesa,

In all honesty, I do not mind answering any questions from people, especially those from certified C2 French sages like you! :)

To be honest, I am aware that I have 11-year old sedentary high school French in my memory. However, since I intend to get to the C2 level (and not merely plateau at DELF B2 Pro), I want to establish an extremely strong French foundation from which I can ascend the C-level mountain. I do not want to be hubristic and say, "Well, I have photographic memory, so I can teleport to the summit of C2 with no effort and having sole reliance on an inactive French foundation laid over a decade ago." I want the experience of learning a language: from getting blown away by an RFI Le Journal en Francais Facile F-5 tornado and realising that I have a feeling that I am NOT in Kansas anymore, to eating a bowl of chicken soup in a 42C (108F) Mediterranean heatwave to recover from a stubborn cold whilst not quitting, to applauding when I was able to transcribe what I heard from Cortina/NFEW/FWOT/Linguaphone 1950 & 1971/Living Language/DLI Basic courses. These trials and triumphs are what make anything worthwhile.

Another reason is that I was never able to find native French courses from Hachette/CLE/Didier for beginners/false-beginners. Everything that I found was above my paygrade for those at intermediate and advanced levels.

I am afraid that I would have to disagree with you: ALL contemporary revisions/editions of any series in any* language have become less complex (a euphemism for "dumbed-down"). I have seen this in English and Shona textbooks (made by natives for native speakers) and am confident that this is the case in all languages. I can say, with absolute temerity, that the Czech books that you read in junior school are significantly more complicated than the textbooks in use today. If you picked up the books they are reading today, you would split your sides with laughter.

DISCLAIMER: I would like to believe that outstanding educational systems like those from S. Korea, Japan, Singapore, Finland, Taiwan and Sweden will prove me wrong.
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby garyb » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:07 am

It's been years since I listened to "Français Facile" but from my memory it's not really any more "facile", in terms of speed and clarity or language usage, than standard news radio. It's easier and clearer than most everyday conversation for sure, but the name is a little misleading. I wouldn't be discouraged at finding it difficult if you're used to courses and it's your introduction to real spoken language. The big advantage over normal radio is of course the transcripts.

I agree that monolingual resources can be great... once you're no longer a beginner. If news radio is hard, it's probably safe to say you're a beginner even if not an absolute one and you'd get very little out of more challenging native materials like sitcoms. I do however think that your number of beginner courses is excessive, especially given your background, as much as I believe in having a solid base.

GCSE French only teaches some basics and leaves a lot of gaps; I suspect that some of the people giving advice have good intentions but aren't aware of how low a level it is. It should give you a foundation though: you'll have already got your head around confusing initial concepts like gender agreement and verbs that change for each person, and things like verb conjugations should come back fairly quickly since school assignments focus on drilling them. My experience was similar: I did high school French (Higher level, which I believe is equivalent to AS level) then picked it up again years later. I was a bit shocked at how much very basic stuff I had never been taught properly, like object pronouns, but my first few months of self-study were mostly a case of revision and filling in these gaps so I got to a solid low-intermediate level in only a few months. Compared to high-school pace that's incredibly quick, and I'm sure you could do the same!
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Skynet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:41 am

garyb wrote:I agree that monolingual resources can be great... once you're no longer a beginner. If news radio is hard, it's probably safe to say you're a beginner even if not an absolute one and you'd get very little out of more challenging native materials like sitcoms. I do however think that your number of beginner courses is excessive, especially given your background, as much as I believe in having a solid base.


Hey Gary,

Thanks for the feedback. :)

I was left wondering what your advice actually is because you said that my use of courses was excessive, but did not recommend an alternative course (I can never resist puns) of action.
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Adrianslont » Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:27 pm

Skynet wrote:I have heard that there is a vast chasm between French and whatever ghastly pidgin those Canadian imposters claim to speak :lol: However, it cannot be nearly as bad as the vile aberration of the English language that Australians speak *cough* goading PM with a stick *cough* :lol:

I know you are trying to be lighthearted but I think you need to consider the feelings of Canadians and Australians (and all other nationalities and speakers of non-prestige varieties etc) here.
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby garyb » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:15 pm

Skynet wrote:
garyb wrote:I agree that monolingual resources can be great... once you're no longer a beginner. If news radio is hard, it's probably safe to say you're a beginner even if not an absolute one and you'd get very little out of more challenging native materials like sitcoms. I do however think that your number of beginner courses is excessive, especially given your background, as much as I believe in having a solid base.


Hey Gary,

Thanks for the feedback. :)

I was left wondering what your advice actually is because you said that my use of courses was excessive, but did not recommend an alternative course (I can never resist puns) of action.


Fewer courses, of course ;) Sorry I didn't recommend anything more specific. I'm not familiar with half of the courses on your list so am hesitant to give advice on particular ones, but the two Assimils and two Linguaphones are a warning sign for a start and Living Language, Cortina, DLI, Hugo, Teach Yourself, Oxford, Colloquial, etc. are all going to cover much of the same ground since they're all beginner courses. I'll leave it to the course experts (PM?) to advise on which ones to focus on. DLI seems like a strange choice for a language that has so many other options.

Normally I'd advise to just pick one or two and stick with them, but your situation is unique in that you have so much time per day that I'm not sure what else to recommend to fill in the extra hours! For an intermediate or advanced learner, the obvious answer would be extensive listening and reading, but for you that's probably too demanding since not much material counts as comprehensible input yet.

My experience is that you can only do a certain amount of concentrated study per day, especially at beginner level, before your brain can't take in any more. Since French is (relatively speaking!) quite close to English and you already have some background, that amount is going to be much more than in something like Russian or Japanese, but more than two or three hours might be pushing it. There's been some discussion on in another thread in the last few days about concentrated study time per day. I suppose you should see the first days of your project as an experiment to see how much you can manage, which times of day work best for you, etc.

The Australian thing was very clearly a joke, and coming from someone who is keen to gain exposure to the different varieties of French! :roll: On that subject, I think it's best to stick to one variety at first and then worry about others a bit later. A beginner or early intermediate learner has enough to take in already!
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Skynet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:44 pm

GaryB,

If I reduced my time dedicated to French, I would be forced to think/talk in my other languages. That is currently the enemy of progress.

DLI was an unlikely course, but it succeeds in melting my brain everyday. These drills have already helped me make basic sentences with good pronunciation. Whilst the audio quality is questionable at best, you're forced to pay a greater level of attention, which in turn improves my listening skills. I will confess that DLI is extremely intellectually taxing because I really need to concentrate on the poor quality audio.

To be honest, if I wasn't spending so much time studying, I would have developed gills by now because most of my time would have been spent in the ocean. Sailing school only starts in September (along with my next semester), so I had to fill my time with whatever materials I could find freely from the library. I am a little bit OCD, so please pardon me :lol: During the semester, I certainly will not have 10.5 hrs/day dedicated to language learning.

Thanks for your concern. I never study more than 4.5hrs consecutively without a break. I play chess and contract bridge, so I am accustomed to long periods of intense concentration. Anything above my limit results in a massive BSOD (blue screen of death) and I begin to feel drowsy. That said, I would love to hear what others say about optimum language study hours. May you kindly post the link?

The Australian thing was very clearly a joke, and coming from someone who is keen to gain exposure to the different varieties of French! :roll

At least I have confirmation that what I said was, without contestation, a joke. I would have thought that the irony of a French language neophyte (read:me) making a comment about French Canadian pronunciation (when he understand no accents of any variety currently), and a jibe directed at the Course King (read:PM) would be dead giveaways...but then again, we all have vastly different sensitivities and senses of humour, so I will accept correction.

Hope to hear from you soon!
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Skynet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:54 pm

Adrianslont wrote:
Skynet wrote:I have heard that there is a vast chasm between French and whatever ghastly pidgin those Canadian imposters claim to speak :lol: However, it cannot be nearly as bad as the vile aberration of the English language that Australians speak *cough* goading PM with a stick *cough* :lol:

I know you are trying to be lighthearted but I think you need to consider the feelings of Canadians and Australians (and all other nationalities and speakers of non-prestige varieties etc) here.


I apologise for making an obvious pair of jokes that Canadians and Australians may somehow misconstrue and possibly find offensive.
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Adrianslont » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:09 pm

Skynet wrote:
Adrianslont wrote:
Skynet wrote:I have heard that there is a vast chasm between French and whatever ghastly pidgin those Canadian imposters claim to speak :lol: However, it cannot be nearly as bad as the vile aberration of the English language that Australians speak *cough* goading PM with a stick *cough* :lol:

I know you are trying to be lighthearted but I think you need to consider the feelings of Canadians and Australians (and all other nationalities and speakers of non-prestige varieties etc) here.


I apologise for making an obvious pair of jokes that Canadians and Australians may somehow misconstrue and possibly find offensive.
Yes, I knew you were joking. I would classify your “jokes” as mild casual racism - far from the worst. I’ve had such a nice day I didn’t feel terribly offended but thought somone needed to mention it. I actually feel more offended now that you are implying that I have misconstrued what you said.

Edit: this link might explain it better than I can https://itstopswithme.humanrights.gov.au/what-can-you-do/speak/casual-racism
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby Skynet » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:59 pm

Adrianslont wrote:
Skynet wrote:
Adrianslont wrote:
Skynet wrote:I have heard that there is a vast chasm between French and whatever ghastly pidgin those Canadian imposters claim to speak :lol: However, it cannot be nearly as bad as the vile aberration of the English language that Australians speak *cough* goading PM with a stick *cough* :lol:

I know you are trying to be lighthearted but I think you need to consider the feelings of Canadians and Australians (and all other nationalities and speakers of non-prestige varieties etc) here.


I apologise for making an obvious pair of jokes that Canadians and Australians may somehow misconstrue and possibly find offensive.
Yes, I knew you were joking. I would classify your “jokes” as mild casual racism - far from the worst. I’ve had such a nice day I didn’t feel terribly offended but thought somone needed to mention it. I actually feel more offended now that you are implying that I have misconstrued what you said.


mild casual racism


I was unaware that Australians and French Canadians were races. When were these terms established? What are the colour(s) and ethnicity(ies) of these two newly discovered races :?: :?: :?:

but thought somone needed to mention it


Thank-you for being the ultra-concerned global citizen who defends the Australian and French Canadian races. :) :) :)

I actually feel more offended now that you are implying that I have misconstrued what you said


Click bait.
Last edited by Skynet on Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: My 9 week ultra-intensive French resurrection summer project.

Postby rdearman » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:11 pm

Jokes can quickly get out of hand or misconstrued. We therefore have a rule.

Humour and sarcasm: Humour is generally welcome, but it shouldn't be used to attempt to circumvent the rules by claiming "I was only joking". This includes justifying discriminatory remarks but it's not limited to them.
Sarcastic remarks should be used very sparingly and with caution since they can be misconstrued and become inflammatory.


While I don't believe that there was any malicious intent let's please just drop it and move on.
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