zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:24 pm

I mentioned in my last post a few subjects I wanted to cover (Bruno Ganz, Hebrew, Memrise to Anki experience, Georgian, WordNet ...) and I'm not sure I'll get to them all any time soon.

Bruno Ganz has passed away. His roles in several movies have been excellent company on my German journey. I had cards from Wings of Desire in Anki that I don't study (because I made them rather poorly). And I've recently tried reading parts of the text to my daughters. I loved his accent, I loved his mother's Swiss accent. So I think I'm going to binge on his movies in the next weeks, I have several, others are available here and there.

Hebrew today was as bad as it gets. My review was supposed to cover a dozen action verbs I'm supposed to know and I could remember about 10%. My class was bad. My Memrise review worse than burnt carrots. Well, I looked back over last few days and I've been doing the time but not really focusing on learning. I'm pausing for tonight and going to work on Hebrew tomorrow. Bad days are disappointing but somehow they are also a motivation to work better (not more).

Ok, maybe one last Anki review....

Image
4 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Hebrew and German

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Mar 02, 2019 6:40 pm

Hebrew

    I’ve had good weeks since the 10th of January - I have been studying every single day usually Hebrew, Setswana and some German. It’s been intense and the working with Hebrew has going to sleep with phrases running through head, falling asleep with that, thinking in Hebrew and waking up with Hebrew words … Great! Well, it might be a bit too much. Falling asleep is a bit difficult and I may need to cut back. It’s not that positive when my limited vocabulary makes me swirl about with very limited mental vocabulary. There are some negative emotional results I experienced when I focus too much.

    On the positive side, I’m learning! This weeks have been a serious step up over the last 6 months. I’m watching the series Shtisel for the second time and going from understanding one or two words here and there to getting full sentences! I’m still well below 20% comprehension but I love that this is visibly improving. My “study stack” is now italki lesson once/twice a week (and the homework from Hebrew from Scratch), short Memrise sessions, short Anki sessions, Shtisel videos, 30 minutes of Pimsleur a day, occasional hebrewpod101 sessions, a rare Assimil and paper flashcards from Pimsleur and/or homework.

    It seems like a lot but I’ve stopped FSI. Living Language and Clozemaster at this time. They did not bring joy. If I had to stick to only one main resource right now, I’d probably say that I’d keep Pimsleur, run through it and add back other stuff. I’m surprised because in the past I hated Pimsleur, but right now it the right program for my stage in learning.

    I started back with Pimsleur because I stumbled across Ellen Jovin’s old blog on her Pimsleur Hebrew experience and thought, “Hey, I really should give this another shot,” especially since I had received a set a few years back as a gift. I’ve completed 8 lessons so far, and I wonder if my love will stick with me through the full course material. It is getting harder. But I’m alternating with Assimil and I plan to make that my daily workout for the next months. (And yes, it is kind of creepy material but one can ignore that.)

German and churn and churn

    Reineke posted Steve’s video on moving on to native material and how important it is to start using native material where a majority of people never move away from beginner material. This has me thinking about how I use German and how late I moved into native material. Steve talks about moving into the real language in a month or two or three. Yikes!

Reineke wrote:


    I don’t know when I moved into German native material but it’s been a while and yet, when I want to “study”, I do go back a lot to learning material. I’m currently going to go back to Perfectionnement Allemand material because I never really finished. I’m not going back to FSI… But at the same time I’m sort of floundering with native material. Here is one reason why I churn with this language. When I read news, tweets, facebook posts in German I’ll stumble across one or two words that I don’t know or it is just a little harder to read and my brain is lazy. My brain says, “oh, German, skip that stuff” and off I go to read something in English. It’s a terrible but quite present habit. So I add more material that I avoid. Churn.

    I need to work on this.

[tags: #tagLangHE #tagLangDE #tagMethodPimsleur]
8 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:27 pm

(taking this over to my log to stop polluting nooj's lovely log with this stuff.)

Saim wrote:
eido wrote:
Saim wrote:I'm honestly confused. Why would they be less convinced you're a local if you spoke more Catalan?

The way I'm reading it is they got mad because he only addressed them with a Catalan greeting, and proceeded to speak to them in Spanish. The host didn't like that, so they treated him badly. He was convinced @zenmonkey was a monolingual Spaniard and not a Mexican despite the obvious accent difference, so he changed his attitude toward him. That's what I understand.


Sure. I don't believe that's why that happened.


:D Well, I think that's fair. I mean, I probably would not have believed it either, if I hadn't experienced it. The swearing, the terms used and the resolution and the explanations by the owner the next day all made it very clear that it was all cultural and all language related. Sure, it could have been that the guy's underwear was too tight or the I looked too much like his mom or that there was a candid camera somewhere. But it seemed to us to be as described.

Now, In over the last 25 years, I've been back in Spain 25-30 times (had two bosses that were based in Madrid) of which maybe 6-7 times were in Barcelona. A few times in Mallorca. I've driven from Bordeaux to San Sebastian to Taragona to Girona and back. I have never, ever, not once had a negative cultural experience in Spain, expect for that one time. I've had my car broken into (we left/forgot an empty bag in plain view...), I've had emergency care (bike crash), I've slept on the floor of an airport, I've photographed a strike... but no other altercation. Not only that, I don't know anyone that's gone through that. In fact, language wise the bilingualism that I've seen and experienced is exceptional - sure, some people clearly function better in Catalan but, as a tourist, I'm not sure I've ever met a local in Barcelona that doesn't also speak Spanish.

It's ok, if you don't believe it.
3 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
Saim
Green Belt
Posts: 319
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:14 pm
Location: Poznań
Languages: N: English (AU)
C2: Catalan, Serbian, Spanish
C1: Polish
B2: Urdu, Hungarian
~B1-A2 (some rusty): Hebrew, Punjabi, Galician, Russian, Portuguese, Italian, Asturian, Occitan, Dutch, French
~A2/1: Slovene, Ukrainian, Esperanto, Turkish, Basque, Arabic
x 880

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby Saim » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:09 am

zenmonkey wrote::D Well, I think that's fair. I mean, I probably would not have believed it either, if I hadn't experienced it. The swearing, the terms used and the resolution and the explanations by the owner the next day all made it very clear that it was all cultural and all language related.


I don't doubt it could have been culture and language related. What I find it hard to believe is that he was upset that you spoke Spanish (and not Catalan), in that case he probably gets angry on a daily basis.

In fact, language wise the bilingualism that I've seen and experienced is exceptional - sure, some people clearly function better in Catalan but, as a tourist, I'm not sure I've ever met a local in Barcelona that doesn't also speak Spanish.


More people in Barcelona (especially when including the metropolitan area) are Spanish-dominant and many don't speak Catalan at all so it's not really an issue of them "also" speaking Spanish.

If you ever do the opposite experiment (i.e. speak to everyone in Catalan), you'll probably find this bilingualism doesn't exist, and you'll likely get far more "negative language-related experiences".

I certainly don't want to deny or minimise your experience, all I'm saying is that Catalan is a minority language in Catalonia, and the level of negative attitudes towards Catalan among Spaniards and among foreigners in Barcelona is generally not reflected in the attitudes of Catalan speakers towards Spanish.
0 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:49 am

Saim wrote:More people in Barcelona (especially when including the metropolitan area) are Spanish-dominant and many don't speak Catalan at all so it's not really an issue of them "also" speaking Spanish.

If you ever do the opposite experiment (i.e. speak to everyone in Catalan),you'll probably find this bilingualism doesn't exist, and you'll likely get far more "negative language-related experiences".


But a general population with about 75% self reporting as speakers of Catalan (in 2001 survey), I'd say the bilingualism does exist. I don't doubt that negative experiences exist for Catalan speakers, I've seen that (and for other languages of Spain too). By calling it exceptional, I'm saying that it is much more developed (and I support the regional language policies) than other regions in Europe that call themselves bilingual and not that everyone IS bilingual -- that would be ridiculous of me.

Saim wrote:I certainly don't want to deny or minimise your experience, all I'm saying is that Catalan is a minority language in Catalonia, and the level of negative attitudes towards Catalan among Spaniards and among foreigners in Barcelona is generally not reflected in the attitudes of Catalan speakers towards Spanish.


Well, except that is exactly what you're doing. My experience aside, I don't doubt that the negative dominant language attitudes are more prevalent.
0 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Approaching the end of the 6WC

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:35 pm

I've stumbled across some music in Hebrew that I'm enjoying quite a bit. Note the key phrase "tahabil tirbah" (תהבל תרבח) is really a saying in Moroccan Arabic ("be simple (dumb) and profit" or something like "don't overthink it").



Clearly not yet in the space where I can "get" this directly. But I should now start to add music and other cultural content to my listening - I'm excited by how easily this type of fusion moves across cultures I don't tend to focus on (from Arabic to Yemenite to Russian... to name a few.)

The 6WC ends in a few days, I've really appreciated the impact that it had on my Hebrew but everything else suffered and for various reasons I think this may be my last 6WC challenge for a while. It generates frustration and some time challenges I'm not enjoying. However, it's helped me get into the habit of a daily Pimlseur lesson and frequent Anki work and for that I'm very grateful.
6 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:22 pm

just a quick note ... as I'm going to try to also learn to touch type with hebrew here are the two tools I'm using:

https://sense-lang.org/typing/tutor/keyboardingHE.php

and, as Deinonysus pointed out:

https://ie9.ieonchrome.com/#http://www. ... r/hthe.htm (on Chrome)

I think I've learned the home row but this feels very unnatural as I don't touch type in other languages and I'm going to need to break my bad habits of one handed dominant typing....
3 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

6WC, Time, Quality and Joy

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:23 am

The 6WC ended last night and I got in over 70 hrs of Hebrew. That about 100 minutes a day over the period, which I'm impressed with and do not think it is something I could maintain. But some of that was really just watching tv or films (not intensively). My learnings?

The 6WC does help to spend a lot of time on a target language, but the competitive aspect is distracting to me. Because I was looking for activity that would generate a fair amount of time to record I choose activities that where time intensive. This meant that I re-discovered Pimsleur and watching TV. Pimsleur is just great, at my level, I found it extremely useful and will continue to use - one lesson a day with one or two times of review (maybe more if it starts to kick my butt). Surprisingly, the TV that I watched went from zero understanding to about 20%... that is a nice surprise and I really like that I got listening in like that early into the learning curve. I don't think I would have spent so much time listening at this point in my study if it didn't "count". So the surprise was that it is something I'm finding enjoyable, useful and worthwhile.

However, I feel that I will pare that down a bit to work on more intensive listening - either taking notes, transcribing or sub2srs this content. I think it is very easy to learn to be comfortable not understanding audio to the point it being counterproductive.

I've also learned that I'd like to go back to tracking beyond "time spent on task". So, personally, I'm going to add two soft measures or "multipliers" to tracking. Let's call the first one "quality" to cover material relevance, learning focus and content intensity. For example, a movie with little dialog might have my full attention, I may take a lot of notes, but if it is sparse on dialog, well that's low content intensity. "Quality" is intrinsic to the material and my perception of it as corresponding to the task at hand (Hello, Robert Persig).

The second, I'm going to call "joy" (it seems to be the thing right now) or enjoyment. I could just stick everything into this but sometimes low quality brings lots of joy. Life is full of mac and cheese moments. So "joy" tracking is going to be about me - my attentiveness, my fulfilment, my mood, how I feel about the time spent. Was I just running through the actions, getting the time in, or was I really getting emotional value from the experience. Right now, my "joy" with Pimsleur is rather high (and I'm really surprised to write that, because I've had a deep hate of Pimsleur in the past).

The 6WC fails to really push for "joy" or "quality" - just look at the number of people that find it overly stressful or drop out or post (what seems to me) as relatively low quality study time.

By tracking how I feel about learning and how I feel about the material, perhaps I'll learn something along the way?

Let me know if you think that's useful or if it is something you do...

(and the first thing I did this morning was wake up early to do my iTalki Hebrew class! I still have Pimsleur and Anki joyfully waiting for me! :D)
6 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
Brun Ugle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2173
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:48 pm
Location: Steinkjer, Norway
Languages: English (N), Norwegian (~C1/C2), Spanish (B1/B2), German (A2/B1?), Japanese (very rusty)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9857
x 5094
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby Brun Ugle » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:47 am

That’s a bit like what I was trying to explain to you that time about how I try to choose what to study based on what will be useful to me at the time, but also on my mood and receptiveness to the material. Even great material can be useless if I’m too tired or stressed to absorb it, but those tired moments may be perfect for mindlessly staring at cartoons, letting my subconscious absorb and assimilate the language without my conscious mind getting in the way.

I found the 6WC counterproductive too. Like you, I ended up doing a bunch of activities that gave a lot of time, but were not necessarily the most useful to me in the moment. Some of it was good. For example, I should be doing a lot of reading, but I ended up skipping a lot of small tasks like regular self-talk because I didn’t feel like writing so many five and ten minute tweets.
4 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2016
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - actively studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 4970
Contact:

Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:40 am

I really appreciate reading the logs here. I've been attentively following a few and I am enjoying reading about those that touch the same languages and material I'm actively studying (Hebrew, German) but also the logs that cover languages I'm interested in (even distantly) or are written in languages I read are inspiring.

This week brings me to my longest streak with Anki this year - 10 days! I've been using Anki a lot but rather inconsistently over the last 3 months (and substituting Memrise for a while). I'm building up my own Pimsleur deck for the first 30 lessons of Hebrew, which is going forward well. 10 days is nothing but I'm amused that it is the current streak.

But Pimsleur is beginning to kick me in the head. I started Lesson 25 yesterday, I was tired and I just did not finish it (hmm, starting a lesson at 1 in the morning might not be the best idea.) Even before that, I've noticed for the last week, that I'm having more difficulty answering the prompt before the answer is given. It's on the tip of my tongue... And the constant going from English to Hebrew is taxing. I been thinking that I want to do dialog cards next - where the right answer is answering, or commenting on the the current sentence. These cards would be Hebrew to Hebrew. i may even start with single word cards to read like :

?בעברית "cat" איך אתה אומר


Anyway, I'm going to finish Pimsleur 25 today (if it doesn't put me to sleep) and over the weekend, I'll probably start a second wave review from lesson 15 or so, much like an Assimil wave. So next week I should finish with Pimsleur I and start on II. And throw in more Assimil in there too.

Last week, my teacher noticed that I was more active and more focused on this. That's definitely the positive results of the 6WC.
6 x
Tagged posts: Language Method Resource
Please feel free to correct me in any language, critique my posts, challenge my thoughts.
I am inconsistency incarnate.
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests