zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

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Beli Tsar
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Re: Persian - Adjust and go.

Postby Beli Tsar » Thu Mar 31, 2022 8:59 am

Gordafarin2 wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
And part of the problem is the print size - it looks like this "می" to me. That's annoying.


This is the bane of my existence. There's really no excuse for it in an instructional book, they should have typeset it better... but I'm sorry to say that small font size is a very common problem for Arabic script. I keep my browser zoom at +10% or +25% on Persian websites, but it's even more annoying on multilingual websites where there will be Persian mixed in with English, so if you zoom, the English text gets huge. (There are a few browser extensions that can help with this, but last time I tried they didn't work well with sites like Youtube which is where I need it most)

It's to do with the vertical space that the letters take up - there are larger ascenders and descenders compared to the 'body' of the letter, so a 12-pixel-high Perso-Arabic word looks smaller than a 12-pixel-high English word. Always makes me feel like it's time to get reading glasses... :?

It almost feels as if the font designers themselves are conspiring against learners of Arabic script.
Even when I've been producing documents in Farsi for native speakers, I've always had to bump the font size by several notches compared to an equivalent English text. The sizes just aren't comparable.
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zenmonkey
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Re: Persian - Adjust and go.

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Mar 31, 2022 4:24 pm

Beli Tsar wrote:
Gordafarin2 wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
And part of the problem is the print size - it looks like this "می" to me. That's annoying.


This is the bane of my existence. There's really no excuse for it in an instructional book, they should have typeset it better... but I'm sorry to say that small font size is a very common problem for Arabic script. I keep my browser zoom at +10% or +25% on Persian websites, but it's even more annoying on multilingual websites where there will be Persian mixed in with English, so if you zoom, the English text gets huge. (There are a few browser extensions that can help with this, but last time I tried they didn't work well with sites like Youtube which is where I need it most)

It's to do with the vertical space that the letters take up - there are larger ascenders and descenders compared to the 'body' of the letter, so a 12-pixel-high Perso-Arabic word looks smaller than a 12-pixel-high English word. Always makes me feel like it's time to get reading glasses... :?

It almost feels as if the font designers themselves are conspiring against learners of Arabic script.
Even when I've been producing documents in Farsi for native speakers, I've always had to bump the font size by several notches compared to an equivalent English text. The sizes just aren't comparable.


Well, I have to say, I'm glad I'm not the only one feeling this. Newer learning/print material gets this and the print size is more readable.
I do wear +2 old dude glasses for Persian study. My wife likes them ;)
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zenmonkey
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Apr 20, 2022 5:57 am

Persian

Well, it's been a few days since I posted. My study has changed a little, I'm focused more on just getting "ear" time than studying grammar. In this sense, I've spent less time with TYB and more with the podcast and Assimil. Instead of waiting until lesson 50 to start the second wave, I started a few days ago and have definitely the first lessons covered. Because of my workload, I've only scheduled 2 lessons with my tutor. I did find a language exchange partner on italki and we are currently trying to schedule some exchange sessions.

Over the last week, I've also organized some additional material with the FSI/DLI courses and the books I now have waiting in the wing. So at least for the next months, I'm definitely set.

Recently, I saw a post on facebook post on Polyglot Rotations (they are learning Russian) -- with a list of some basic vocabulary. While I created my own list a few weeks back for Persian in Anki, I wasn't really working on that deck. So my review for this week will be to get those basic words and phrases down pat and well overlearned.

Status
podcast 33
TYB 17
Assimil 38 / second wave 5
Anki 858 reviews / 981 cards
Fun factor: 8/10

Other languages
We've been attending a multi-language meetup here in the Santa Cruz Mountains - mostly focused in Spanish (which I don't need) but it's allowed me to chat a little in French and German. But definitely, my wife is doing more Spanish now.
This week I had a long talk with my youngest daughter and as she is studying Spanish we spent a good hour talking in only Spanish and German. Good practice. She's still studying Russian with Duolingo. She'll be graduating this year from high school and we are making summer plans. She hopes to study in Germany next year once her AbiBac is finished.

And I still have not finalized my trip back to Europe but I need to do that this week.
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zenmonkey
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:21 am

My ex-father-in-law has passed away. He's someone who I cared for quite a bit, my daughters' grandfather.

So I've moved my travel forward and am heading to France on Monday. I expect the next weeks to be tough, reconnecting with people that don't necessarily understand the part of the relationship that I've kept with my ex. But we are good, I had a long conversation with her today (French) and I'll be there to support whatever she and her mother and the girls need.

This morning talking with my girls, we shared thoughts and plans and I noticed that one of my girls kept a certain topical distance by only speaking about everything in English. Sufficiently halting and distant while French was too raw. I think this is part of the language experience that only multilinguals get in a visceral sense.

I'm having a hard time with this today, and as my wife says, even when expected there is a pit that opens up. I learned a lot from this man, and some of it was wordplay and the finesse of French. He was the energy behind the French GP society dictionary of general medicine. And with that in mind, I'm packing my language material for the next 6 weeks to keep up with my studies but I don't know that I'll have the mental energy for it, living and working out of a suitcase once again.

But the Assimil material I have and that I'm using, I bought on my last trip there, promising myself that it would not just sit on a shelf. So I'm happy to be going back with that figuratively tucked under my arm. I'm packing a dark suit and tie, and with these thoughts, I'm also bringing some Russian comic books that we bought for one of the girls, some German books another daughter asked for. I should tell you about the cool book I received today too, but that will wait.

Last minutes for a little study before bed.
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby rdearman » Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:40 pm

Condolences, thinking of you. :cry:
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zenmonkey
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Apr 27, 2022 11:00 am

Thanks.

I’m in Lille, France now staying at my ex’s house while she deals with family stuff. Trip was mostly uneventful but I do feel plane seats are getting smaller and more uncomfortable. A sleepless trip until I got on the train to Lille.
Had a great conversation with P. my second and she shared a bit on what she’s learned so far on Shimaore - we discussed a little about the Bantu family and Swahili. She’s definitely learned a lot of active phrases from simply actively interacting with people and friends and being interested. Which makes me think that learning by yourself is a bit less effective.
My youngest continues with Russian but I think she lost a little motivation.
And today, my third wants to talk about planning the B2 tests for Spanish and German (or is it English?) so she can do a year abroad. We’ve agreed previously that I’d cover exam tutoring and the tests but only if she’s actively preparing. Which doesn’t really seam to be the case. Distractions….

Persian

Persian continues. Found some songs I liked and I’ll post about them in the future. I think I kept my Anki streak getting here but will check.

ASSIMIL Lesson 38. - second wave 7. And everything is going into Anki.

Chai podcast 36 - but not focused enough. The recording on these conversations is of mediocre quality. May go over them later. I should do a second wave of later of at least the first 20.

TYB. I brought it but I really haven’t done anything here in weeks. I’m letting myself catch up to the level with the other material.

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Signed up to a half SC for German. Should see what I can start with while I’m here.
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:21 am

Persian
Got back on the horse with Teach Yourself Persian doing lesson 16A this morning. It's only taken me this far to notice that the verb conjugation tables used are only using the formal you. No تو. This sucks because it has me confused and is missing, well, you know a mayor pronoun form. My complaints about this book are just going to increase, despite the great content, the typesetting is turd-level bad. Well, if I start reading books from the 40s I'll at least be able to guess some of it. For example, the lam in ولی si stacked on top of ye and had me guessing.

I think the worst thing is that it just highlights my need for glasses. So not a complaint about the work, but just a pissy old man complaining about the world at large. I have my reading glasses along, so it is not too bad, but I'll need to get a real pair when I am back in the US. ordering them here doesn't make sense.

TYB 16A
ASSIMIL Lesson 39. - second-wave 8
Chai podcast 37

Other
Watched a Korean series - We Are All Dead - because my daughter is really in Korean things right now (but apparently not studying the language). And was told by my other daughter that my French was a little rusty. Not false. It's going to take a few days to get my full fluidity back. This happens to me in all languages. It's not that I'm stumbling in French but that one or two words or a phrase structure will come out with some anglicisme. Annoying.
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby german2k01 » Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:13 pm

How many subject pronouns do you have for "You" in Persian?

In German, they have *Sie (when addressing people of high rank officials or bigger age group than you, and *du informal when addressing people of a similar age group like yourself.)

In Urdu, we have *Tu, the one you are talking about above but it is very slangy and we only use it when someone has done something crappy stuff to us and we are angry at them. Then we use this form. There is another one |Tum|تم which equals the German version of |Du|. This is when I use it when talking to people of a similar age myself.

We use "Aap" آپ when we are talking to people older than myself like parents, elderly siblings, high rank officials etc. This form equals the German version |Sie|

Ps: I am not sure if *Tu will get in the language text books because of its informality.
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Apr 28, 2022 3:55 pm

german2k01 wrote:How many subject pronouns do you have for "You" in Persian?

In German, they have *Sie (when addressing people of high rank officials or bigger age group than you, and *du informal when addressing people of a similar age group like yourself.)

In Urdu, we have *Tu, the one you are talking about above but it is very slangy and we only use it when someone has done something crappy stuff to us and we are angry at them. Then we use this form. There is another one |Tum|تم which equals the German version of |Du|. This is when I use it when talking to people of a similar age myself.

We use "Aap" آپ when we are talking to people older than myself like parents, elderly siblings, high rank officials etc. This form equals the German version |Sie|

Ps: I am not sure if *Tu will get in the language text books because of its informality.


So, in German, Sie is not only for high rank officials - I was regularly addressed with Sie in the workspace by employees in other teams (that didn't know me). Much like French, with some slightly different familiarity rules, Sie is still used with people you don't know, although certainly seems like it is used less than in France.

Persian has two you's - formal سما which is singular and plural (like vous or Sie) and تو (the informal singular) that is used with familiar people like the French tu or German du. Usually, it is not like in Urdu but I understand from my teacher that some of the informal uses can be insulting. Colloquial and spoken Persian will use the informal more often while written tends to go for the formal. Note that both verb endings and verb shorting occur in colloquial speech. hastan instead of hastand, for example. The spoken simplifications of the language are interesting, pronoun dropping, verbal shortening and pronoun markers, the copula (verb to be) can be written both as separate words or as affixes, along with the possessive. I need to listen a lot more to get that final 'i' or 'm' sound that tells me a lot about who the phrase is directed at.

FSI Spoken Persian (1973) - still suggested that the familiar form should be used for a child, a member of the family, a very close friend or someone who is "socially below them - a servant, a laborer" - I suspect that this has evolved in the last 50 years much like in Mexico... where TV and radio has given rise to the use of the informal... but this is just my theory, will need to ask my tutor.
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Beli Tsar
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Re: zenmonkey's multilingual adventures of a traveller

Postby Beli Tsar » Fri Apr 29, 2022 12:34 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Persian has two you's - formal سما which is singular and plural (like vous or Sie) and تو (the informal singular) that is used with familiar people like the French tu or German du. Usually, it is not like in Urdu but I understand from my teacher that some of the informal uses can be insulting. Colloquial and spoken Persian will use the informal more often while written tends to go for the formal. Note that both verb endings and verb shorting occur in colloquial speech. hastan instead of hastand, for example. The spoken simplifications of the language are interesting, pronoun dropping, verbal shortening and pronoun markers, the copula (verb to be) can be written both as separate words or as affixes, along with the possessive. I need to listen a lot more to get that final 'i' or 'm' sound that tells me a lot about who the phrase is directed at.

FSI Spoken Persian (1973) - still suggested that the familiar form should be used for a child, a member of the family, a very close friend or someone who is "socially below them - a servant, a laborer" - I suspect that this has evolved in the last 50 years much like in Mexico... where TV and radio has given rise to the use of the informal... but this is just my theory, will need to ask my tutor.

My two cents would be that is more common than it was, but has probably evolved less than some other languages? So FSI isn't far wrong: it's perhaps just extended up from children to young people interacting together. Of course, younger people are all socially below in Iran (as far as I can see); so if you are older (as you complain above!) then you could perhaps use it for people in their 20's. Of course this can increase social distance between you and them, as they feel obliged to use سما back to you; there is a big distance in Iranian social interactions between generations, and as an older man you may have to work harder to overcome that.

When I was working with refugees, many of them were young men in their 20s or below, generally cool/informal and likely to joke around in big groups like young men in most places. They, I think, would use تو in that situation, though they might revert to سما when dealing with each other in more formal ways.

Personally I never really felt comfortable using it: the potential for offense was too high, and in general people seemed to be more likely to be flattered by an excessive use of سما than insulted by too much formality. It would have made sense to use تو slightly more, when dealing with the youngest guys (late teens and early 20s), especially as I was (as perceived by them) in a position of authority and importance. But then I was trying to diminish the extent to which I was seen as an authority and a benefactor...

That's a vague and wandering way of saying that I think you can get by with سما most of the time. Some of the other textbooks you mentioned definitely deal with the تو forms, though.

p.s. this is very much my two cents taken from a limited range of situations, all outside Iran, with pretty weird power dynamics at play (always being the 'benefactor') and I may be misunderstanding/missing lots of details/not good enough at Farsi/stereotyping horribly... perhaps some of our better Farsi users can weigh in?
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