I fail words -- devilyoudont's Japanese & Esperanto log

[devilyoudont]

Whenever someone is an Esperantist, I am a bit curious what this particular person's motivation was. Because it is a conlang. Some, for example, consider it a way of both "parties" meeting half-way. Reportedly, these are the words of a person from China, too. (Who has been unnamed in that Internet Esperanto Article, but that doesn't matter right now anyway).

So, I had multiple exposures to Esperanto since the age of around 15, and I tried to learn it a few times.

My initial exposure to the language was a library book. Me and my best friend had an interest in learning a language to use as a secret means of communication. Esperanto seemed suitable for this. He quit it immediately, I quit once the library book was due. I had more encounters with Esperanto over the years, but I finally learned it, more or less from scratch, in 2015. I wanted to test out this Duolingo website people were talking about. There was no Japanese course, but Esperanto was there like a bad penny.

Without even finishing the course, I went into Esperanto chatrooms and just fell in love with the community. The most rewarding thing to me about interacting with the Esperanto community, was when I met someone who either had no English or very little English, but we were able to still do a genuine cultural exchange with one another. Another incredibly enchanting part of the community for me was that Esperantists, by and large, are just lovers of languages in general. I had no idea about "polyglots" or anything at the time. So this was my first time meeting other people who were learning a language just because they loved it, not for work, not as a means to some other end.

At this point, I have friends that I only speak to in Esperanto. I sometimes catch myself spontaneously thinking in Esperanto. The language has simply become part of my identity, and those initial reasons for learning it have somewhat lost their salience for me. I study Esperanto because it is part of who I am, and those initial reasons all feel somewhat quaint now.

And what might being a Spanish "beginner" mean in your case?

I'm not exactly sure where my Spanish level is, but I do feel that I am a beginner. I sometimes have a feeling that I am on the edge of a breakthrough in Spanish. But that breakthrough still hasn't happened.

So there are a few things that stand out to me as marking me as a beginner for Spanish:
1) My reading comprehension is very low. This isn't just an issue of a lack of vocabulary. I am still very likely to miss the "point" of a story in Spanish, even if I know every word. Even if I do an intensive reading with a dictionary.
2) When listening, I can only understand stuff that is targeted towards learners, or stuff that is targeted towards children if I already know the basic outline of the story (so I can understand fairy tales I've heard in other languages in Spanish)
3) My production abilities for Spanish are still non-existent. Putting together even basic phrases in Spanish is very difficult for me.

I think that it's possible that I need to return to basics with Spanish and attempt to complete a Spanish course. But I kind of have a Goldilocks problem-- every resource I look at is either way too hard for me, or way too easy.

Still, it's not all bad. I occasionally find myself understanding things in Spanish that I didn't expect to understand. Spanish is much more present in my environment than Japanese or Esperanto, so it happens randomly that I catch some Spanish just in the air around me, and I understand more of it than I did last year. So progress is occurring, if slowly.

No doubt that your Japanese is more advanced than mine. But just in case you didn't know, the Kanji a.k.a. Chinese Characters consist of several radicals. And knowing about any of them in isolation can really help recalling their meaning. However, understanding their isolated meanings wouldn't be enough. It is about the combination, too.

My kanji knowledge is kind of all over the place. About 800, I would say I truly know. I can write them, I know their major readings, I can more or less define what the kanji means.

There's another several hundred after that, which I can guess certain things about, but I can't write them, and none of my knowledge is definite. So I recognize 張 from 頑張る and 引っ張る. Based on the right half being 長 I would guess that the onyomi is ちょう and I would also make a guess that the kunyomi is はる based on ばる and ぱる from the words I do know. But, I don't have a strong impression of it's meaning, and I can't write it. Or 引 which I also can't write, but I understand the definition, and I know the kunyomi but not the onyomi.

And then the remainder, which I can't even speculate about. I would like to eventually know all of the jouyou kanji as well as I know about 800 of them

The reason I haven't been able to accomplish this goal is burn out. The 800 kanji that I would say I know well--that's a result of having done extensive study of the kanji using radical based methods that you describe. The other several hundred kanji that I have vague knowledge about, that's just learned from sheer exposure more or less. I learned things about those kanji, apparently effortlessly, but the knowledge is completely fragmented.

Sorry for this incredibly long response but, I'm thinking a lot about this because I want to set goals to address these shortcomings for Japanese and Spanish as new years resolutions.

[SGP]

This reply: Esperanto

He quit it immediately, I quit once the library book was due.

How come he quit so soon?

I had more encounters with Esperanto over the years, but I finally learned it, more or less from scratch, in 2015.

Maybe as your First Non-Native Language even?

The most rewarding thing to me about interacting with the Esperanto community, was when I met someone who either had no English or very little English, but we were able to still do a genuine cultural exchange with one another.

In that regard, it's more international than English even. And this does mean something.

Another incredibly enchanting part of the community for me was that Esperantists, by and large, are just lovers of languages in general.

Just like Lazarus Ludwig Zamenhof, too, I guess.
And yes, they really are inclined to loving polyglottery.

Also, because of Esperanto's special position, it is one of the three linguae francae of the toki pona community. The other ones are toki pona itself and English. But as for TP, it is used for interchange within certain limits only. Because of its Built-In Non-Removeable Ambiguity.

I sometimes catch myself spontaneously thinking in Esperanto.

And what about intentionally doing it as well?

The language has simply become part of my identity, and those initial reasons for learning it have somewhat lost their salience for me.

A language becoming a part of one's identity... I definitely can relate. My Top Seven did cause some impact on myself, and they still do.

As a reaction to your post (even if it also reminded me of some things I learned before), I just unqueued Esperanto. In addition, it is possible that it will become one of my favorite languages any time in the future.

[SGP]

Be forewarned . This post could contain some serious Spanish learning suggestions. And maybe, just maybe, you wouldn't have seen the last of them even.

I'm not exactly sure where my Spanish level is, but I do feel that I am a beginner. I sometimes have a feeling that I am on the edge of a breakthrough in Spanish. But that breakthrough still hasn't happened.

Do you know what they say about the Chinese bamboo and its Underground Rhizome Growth? #EntirelyOnTopic #Allegories

So there are a few things that stand out to me as marking me as a beginner for Spanish:
1) My reading comprehension is very low. This isn't just an issue of a lack of vocabulary. I am still very likely to miss the "point" of a story in Spanish, even if I know every word. Even if I do an intensive reading with a dictionary.

You possibly might want to re-read it after some time.
As you try to figure out the meaning, you already are doing some steps towards understanding it.
But underground (see above ).

Some Mental Hash Tags can be found in the allegory below.
(Or keywords, if you prefer).

Taken from the "nimble nimble like a mouse, who be nimbling at mi 'ouse?" story:
Eating just a little bit of that gingerbread doesn't cause too many visible changes.
But if you go on, you can tear the Wicked Witch's House down.
You might opt to poke some holes into it before starting to blast, so she betta move fast.

2) When listening, I can only understand stuff that is targeted towards learners, or stuff that is targeted towards children if I already know the basic outline of the story (so I can understand fairy tales I've heard in other languages in Spanish)

Maybe one day you encounter any other Spanish text you don't understand too well. You could search for an English counterpart (even if it is about the same topic only, i.e. not a translation). Then you could return to the Spanish text, and figure out why exactly you didn't understand it before.

3) My production abilities for Spanish are still non-existent. Putting together even basic phrases in Spanish is very difficult for me.

Suggestion:
Some thinking exercises now and then. Like "how to say this in Spanish?". Without any Time Pressure. Even if you ponder on how to translate any sentence for two minutes.

I think that it's possible that I need to return to basics with Spanish and attempt to complete a Spanish course.

That could be one out of several solutions. But let me tell you... I ever-never did any Spanish course from start to finish. Neither in a Language School Setting, nor by entirely listening to any audio course or entirely reading any book.

But I kind of have a Goldilocks problem-- every resource I look at is either way too hard for me, or way too easy.

- You don't have to restrict yourself to any particular bowl.
- Why don't bring your own one?
- Mixing something hot and something cold results in a moderate temperature.

In addition:
That Goldilocks Challenge is among the Most Major Reasons of why I never did a Spanish course from start to finish. But still, there was the possibility to do something else.

Still, it's not all bad. I occasionally find myself understanding things in Spanish that I didn't expect to understand.

Sometimes things could become easier by not trying too hard

Spanish is much more present in my environment than Japanese or Esperanto, so it happens randomly that I catch some Spanish just in the air around me,

So you do know more than you did at the very start

and I understand more of it than I did last year.

As the time goes on, there is much that can change unexpectedly

So progress is occurring, if slowly.

Wishing you a surprising breakthrough, and it just might be meant to be

[SGP]

And then the remainder, which I can't even speculate about. I would like to eventually know all of the jouyou kanji as well as I know about 800 of them

Aisee, you could look at the bright side, too. If you know 800, that's about 800 more than I do.

Sorry for this incredibly long response but, I'm thinking a lot about this because I want to set goals to address these shortcomings for Japanese and Spanish as new years resolutions.

"Incredibly long"? I can relate. There are persons who either have been knowing from the very start how to express any thought by a few words only, or realized at any later point of their life how to do so. But still, they sometimes would write something very long, because of many thoughts they would want to mention. There are some people who consider this approach, too, as something that simply is too content dense or anything. But there isn't any solution that would always please all of the readers anyway.

[devilyoudont]

How come he quit so soon?

Probably he liked the idea of speaking a secret language more than the reality of learning a secret language.

Maybe as your First Non-Native Language even?

I had to take Spanish classes prior to that, but Esperanto would be the first language I wanted to learn voluntarily.

Of course, when I fully learned Esperanto in 2015, I was already intermediate in Japanese, but my reading abilities were also substantially worse than now.

And what about intentionally doing it as well?

I sometimes intentionally think in my target languages, but mostly when I'm actively studying. With Esperanto specifically, I can catch myself making errors in my thoughts, which is a weird experience. With the other two languages, I worry about thinking too much in them, because I may not catch my own errors.

As a reaction to your post (even if it also reminded me of some things I learned before), I just unqueued Esperanto. In addition, it is possible that it will become one of my favorite languages any time in the future.

Don't feel like you have to force it. I think there are a lot of very wonderful things about Esperanto. But, on the other hand, I think a lot of the criticism about Esperanto is also correct. For me, the benefits of Esperanto outweighed the negatives. But, a completely reasonable person could come to the opposite conclusion.

Also, given your interest in toki pona, it might interest you to know that, from what I know, Sonja Lang is working on a new language project called Umin.

Thanks for the advice regarding Spanish. I will probably let it rattle around in my head for a while before I really decide how I am going to approach Spanish in 2019.

[SGP]

As a reaction to your post (even if it also reminded me of some things I learned before), I just unqueued Esperanto. In addition, it is possible that it will become one of my favorite languages any time in the future.

Don't feel like you have to force it.

Wasn't feeling like that anyway.

I think there are a lot of very wonderful things about Esperanto. But, on the other hand, I think a lot of the criticism about Esperanto is also correct. For me, the benefits of Esperanto outweighed the negatives. But, a completely reasonable person could come to the opposite conclusion.

Some months ago I even skimmed through a whole book of Esperanto criticism. And yes, I do share the author's point of view on some of it. But some only. What you wrote about EO did tell me something new (an explanation from a different perspective), but as I said, it also reminded me of something I already read before.

Someone else, too, took a look at it at teen age [common expression?]. My first attempt to learn it was more than a decade ago. I really liked the idea of an international language that can aid breaking down some communicational borders. And the possibility of speaking to tourists coming to my home town/"home city" appealed to me as well. But I never really got far at that time. Then, after more than one decade, and a long time before your current EO post, my previous interested got rekindled and reinforced.

Also, given your interest in toki pona, it might interest you to know that, from what I know, Sonja Lang is working on a new language project called Umin.

Are you aware of any web link on that? Tried to find one, but I wasn't able to do so.

Thanks for the advice regarding Spanish. I will probably let it rattle around in my head for a while before I really decide how I am going to approach Spanish in 2019.

De nada.
And whatever technique or Multi Technique Mashup you decide for, I do like to know about it.

[devilyoudont]

Are you aware of any web link on that? Tried to find one, but I wasn't able to do so.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/uminlanguage/

All I was able to find is a closed Facebook Group. No activity in the last thirty days, so there's a possibility the project was cancelled or something.

[SGP]

Are you aware of any web link on that? Tried to find one, but I wasn't able to do so.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/uminlanguage/
All I was able to find is a closed Facebook Group. No activity in the last thirty days, so there's a possibility the project was cancelled or something.

Even if someone doesn't use FB, this still is a useful piece of information. If there was no activity in the last 30 days, this could mean that it could take a bit longer until it is finished. Or that it really would have been cancelled. In addition, on the bottom of the page it says that this group was founded about two years ago. So... this may be yet another reason for some to not think too much about this conlang right now (focus, etc.). But maybe there will be an interesting outcome any time later.

[SGP]

How to Kanjify your nickname?
And is there any particular suffix (-san/...) that would be added to it, or would you prefer the omission of any such suffix?

Edit: While devilyoudont possibly would understand the reason for asking anyway, mentioning it for the others right now . In the past few days, I was able to deepen Nihongo once again. And there may be some Japanese-related input which is interesting for devilyoudont, too. So whenever I would drop by in the future, writing complete Japanese sentences or even full posts, the answer could be of some relevance.

[devilyoudont]

How to Kanjify your nickname?
And is there any particular suffix (-san/...) that would be added to it, or would you prefer the omission of any such suffix?

Edit: While devilyoudont possibly would understand the reason for asking anyway, mentioning it for the others right now . In the past few days, I was able to deepen Nihongo once again. And there may be some Japanese-related input which is interesting for devilyoudont, too. So whenever I would drop by in the future, writing complete Japanese sentences or even full posts, the answer could be of some relevance.

In Japanese spaces, I usually go by リリー in Japanese people, and allow people to decide whether they want to add さん or ちゃん

As for how to kanjify my handle, I'm not sure. I think it would be best to find a yojijukugo which captures the intended meaning. But, this is probably the weakest area of my Japanese vocabulary, and I am not familiar with one.