Isa's French Log + a bit of occasional ES, IT, JP or ZH

[I_likes_languages]

Vocabulary: So guess what, until two days ago, I had not realized that you could import a .csv file into anki. After 8 years of using anki. I'm not so smart. I just added 200 words to my deck in less than 60 seconds. This is going to change everything...
Youtube: I'm finding more and more channels that I like just for their content. My favorite so far is "La statistique expliquée à mon chat". It uses cats, Pokemon, and all kinds of other animations to teach math and statistics basics. Another channel that I've found useful is Doc Seven. At the beginning of each video, there is a short sequence which introduces another youtuber, so I've found many interesting channels via his videos. I currently watch about 45min of French Youtube videos per day, some while I do something else (prepare breakfast/brush my teeth/clean etc.), and for some I fully concentrate on the content. Others I like: ScienceEtonnante, HygièneMentale, or StupidEconomics
MOOC: I finished my current MOOC on SmartGrids on FUN, so I'm looking for a new one. I will probably decide today or tomorrow after I check edx again.
italki: I had 3 more 30min lessons since my last log, one of them with a tutor who offers DELF preparation. I was not totally convinced by her, so I'll probably keep searching. I suppose I need to talk to at least 2-3 to be able to compare them, but many certified teachers are budy teaching summer courses now.
Reading: I moved on to the second book in the series, I've read about 250 pages during the last 10 days.
DELF/DALF preparation: I've had a look at the topics, and I've started to make vocabulary lists to fill in some gaps. I've also decided on the abc DELF preparation book by CLE and prepared two of the writing topics (there are 50 topics in the book).

[Cavesa]

Hi, you seem to be doing great! And I really like your log!

It's actually quite hard to get a language to that level in my field (writing reports and studies which only rather highly educated people ever read, taking part in mid- to high-level policy discussions etc), so most of my languages will never make the cut for that anyway.

Why? I agree writing such reports and studies is tricky and would take tons of time to learn. But taking part in such discussions is definitely a reachable goal. How do you think have those tons of non-native English speakers gotten to that point? And you cannot deny their existence, they've simply had little other choice than either learn English well enough or stay away from any international discussion. And speaking about such things in someone else's language could bring some benefits to the discussion. Getting your speaking to such a level might be easier than writing for various reasons. The spoken language is less tied with the rules than the written one (and French writing is formally difficult even when it is not about policies and such stuff), people are much more tolerant to some imperfection than in writing, you get more advantage of it thanks to the direct contact. If I were you, I wouldn't give up on such a future possibility right away, you might surprise yourself.

DELF/DALF: I decided I'd start by aiming for the B2 exam first. Both my tutors agree that it is the one which focuses more on applied language, while C1 focuses a lot on literature.

Why are your tutors spreading this myth?! Do they know what the DALF exams actually look like?

No, C1 and C2 are very practical too, especially for someone wishing to talk about complex issues, communicate professionally in an acceptable way both orally and in writing, organise thoughts well and structure the output, and get even the nuances from the input.

And no, it is not mostly about literature. The science variant is about various things related to nature, science, medicine, computers, ecology, ethics. And the level of the dossier is approximately that of good popular science magazine. The lettres variant is definitely not mostly about literature either. It is more complicated to prepare for but still most people choose it over science (I think it is partially due to teachers and tutors spreading myths). There is a much wider spectrum of subjects and also a much wider spectrum of difficulty you may encounter. The subjects can be not only literature, but also philosophy, history, linguistics, sociology, psychology, and others. Definitely not mostly literature. And the kind of dificulty varies much more than in the science variant. There are tasks even the examiners consider hard, like discussing quite complex philosophy (I guess this variant is more for people with a humanities degree than the general public actually). Or you can get a dossier so banal that it is difficult to produce a text of the given length and not repeat the exactly same things ten times (the lettres candidates I was doing the exam with had a couple of popular psychology articles or stuff from magazines "for women" regurgitating empty phrases about whether going to work was good for mental health or not).

If your tutors and you feel B2 is the appropriate level for you, great. If you want to improve the skills this exam requires, great, it is a good challenge. Sure, C1 and C2 don't include the same "practical" everyday tasks, they are however very practical for anyone wishing to stay an educated person even when they are using a foreign language to express themselves. But careful, the recommendation may also be more based on the ability of the tutors, vast majority really struggles with the C levels. You may want to ask them directly about their experience, if you already haven't. How many students they've prepared for each exam and how did those end up.

Vocabulary: So guess what, until two days ago, I had not realized that you could import a .csv file into anki. After 8 years of using anki. I'm not so smart. I just added 200 words to my deck in less than 60 seconds. This is going to change everything...
Youtube: I'm finding more and more channels that I like just for their content. My favorite so far is "La statistique expliquée à mon chat". It uses cats, Pokemon, and all kinds of other animations to teach math and statistics basics. Another channel that I've found useful is Doc Seven. At the beginning of each video, there is a short sequence which introduces another youtuber, so I've found many interesting channels via his videos. I currently watch about 45min of French Youtube videos per day, some while I do something else (prepare breakfast/brush my teeth/clean etc.), and for some I fully concentrate on the content. Others I like: ScienceEtonnante, HygièneMentale, or StupidEconomics
MOOC: I finished my current MOOC on SmartGrids on FUN, so I'm looking for a new one. I will probably decide today or tomorrow after I check edx again.
italki: I had 3 more 30min lessons since my last log, one of them with a tutor who offers DELF preparation. I was not totally convinced by her, so I'll probably keep searching. I suppose I need to talk to at least 2-3 to be able to compare them, but many certified teachers are budy teaching summer courses now.
Reading: I moved on to the second book in the series, I've read about 250 pages during the last 10 days.
DELF/DALF preparation: I've had a look at the topics, and I've started to make vocabulary lists to fill in some gaps. I've also decided on the abc DELF preparation book by CLE and prepared two of the writing topics (there are 50 topics in the book).

Congrats on the anki change, I have similar revelations at times too Now you can use it more efficiently, which is great.
Thanks for the Youtube recommendations!

Pick your tutor carefully. I really recommend asking about their previous students. I hadn't done it and regretted a bit.

For the vocab gaps, I recommend Vocabulaire Progressif by CLE. Those books are just as good as Grammaire Progressive, even though less necessary for many people. But perhaps you might like it.

[renaissancemedici]

All this is very helpful for me as well. Good luck with your French, Isa!

[I_likes_languages]

Hi, you seem to be doing great! And I really like your log!

All this is very helpful for me as well. Good luck with your French, Isa!

Thanks. I'm still a little unaccustomed to the thought that other people actually read this. But I'm happy to hear that you like it Thank you for the long reply and all the advice Cavesa, I will try to answer as much as possible!

Why? I agree writing such reports and studies is tricky and would take tons of time to learn. But taking part in such discussions is definitely a reachable goal.

You're definitely right. I'd actually not thought about it that way, separating "writing studies etc" from the "taking part in discussions" part. I will give it some more thougt, so thanks for pointing that out! Nevertheless, I'm trying veeeery hard to convince my greedy wanderlusty brain that focusing on French and only French is the right thing for me right now, given everything else that is going on in my life/time-constraints/prior experience etc. But I won't give up on the future possibility just yet

Why are your tutors spreading this myth?! Do they know what the DALF exams actually look like?[...] Pick your tutor carefully. I really recommend asking about their previous students. I hadn't done it and regretted a bit.

Come to think about it, maybe they don't. They're both community teachers. One of them has no formal teaching experience at all, the other one is just finishing up her studies to be a French teacher. I picked them because I felt at ease with them and both make sure I talk >95% of the lesson. So thank you for clarifying about the DELF/DALF content, I hadn't done my research properly. I will try harder to find experienced teachers who will help me prepare for the exam (while still chatting with the others from time to time). I think I can pass B2 while keeping my study schedule "comfortable". I know myself well enough by now to know that I shouldn't give in to ambition too easily, it will take the joy out of studying and I worry that I will abandon the project and end up feeling like a failure. Once I pass B2, I can always aim for C1 next, since there are 5 or 6 exam dates a year I could just pick the next possible date. I hadn't written anything serious in French for years, so the written part is the most daunting for me.

For the vocab gaps, I recommend Vocabulaire Progressif by CLE. Those books are just as good as Grammaire Progressive, even though less necessary for many people. But perhaps you might like it.

I will definitely have look at that!

I didn't do any studying on Sunday (busy with family, too lazy afterwards). But I did have a lot of fun with youtube! Let me first recomend this charming video "La fistule anale de Louis XIV". It's actually quite interesting. If you're interested in History, I've enjoyed "Passé Sauvage" a lot. For medicine, there is "Primum non Nocere", understandable enough despite some medical terms. For books, I've found "Miss Book" very entertaining. She plays at least 5 different roles in each video, and each of her personages speaks differently than the others (one of the speaks very informal language, I can't understand her at all). I'll go to bed now, relistening to my favorite "video" of all. I discovered that one years ago thanks to someone on the old forum, it has tought me a lot about French

[Cavesa]

You're welcome, I'm glad you've found something in my posts useful

Why are your tutors spreading this myth?! Do they know what the DALF exams actually look like?[...] Pick your tutor carefully. I really recommend asking about their previous students. I hadn't done it and regretted a bit.

Come to think about it, maybe they don't. They're both community teachers. One of them has no formal teaching experience at all, the other one is just finishing up her studies to be a French teacher. I picked them because I felt at ease with them and both make sure I talk >95% of the lesson. So thank you for clarifying about the DELF/DALF content, I hadn't done my research properly. I will try harder to find experienced teachers who will help me prepare for the exam (while still chatting with the others from time to time). I think I can pass B2 while keeping my study schedule "comfortable". I know myself well enough by now to know that I shouldn't give in to ambition too easily, it will take the joy out of studying and I worry that I will abandon the project and end up feeling like a failure. Once I pass B2, I can always aim for C1 next, since there are 5 or 6 exam dates a year I could just pick the next possible date. I hadn't written anything serious in French for years, so the written part is the most daunting for me.

You can pass the exams without a tutor. Especially the B2. What is much more useful are the preparatory books. I had't had specific DELF tutoring before B2 (just school classes, where vast majority of people were worse than me and two better thanks to having stayed abroad for some time), I hadn't even gotten the books. Looking back at that experience, I should have gotten the books, I passed just barely.

For the DALF C2, I had the books. I had even a tutor but I found out too late he had no previous experience with the DALF and with a very advanced student. I didn't need him for speaking much but I profited from the fact he had been educated in France (as a native) and therefore knew how to write the formally demanding genres, as the DALF is similar to their high school writing (which is much more formal than the Czech or English one. I have a friend who's got experience with all three school systems). So, I learnt something, I passed my exam but I wouldn't have chosen him, if I had asked directly about his DALF experience, and I also found out he "forgot" to correct some of my speaking mistakes and I was ridiculed for the mistakes later in France. I hadn't expected it for my money. But he was the only one in Prague willing to take me and looking somewhat qualified. I had written to a lot of schools and searched a lot of websites, and I hadn't found anyone better. I hadn't had much experience with skype tutoring back then, perhaps you might like to consider this option more than I had.

Your tutors sound like they might be good for general practice but they are neither natives (are they?), nor they have any experience with preparation for the exams (and they have some really mistaken ideas about it). And, they have no experience with the French writing, as they've been educated in an anglophone country.

You are likely to pass the B2 without much of a problem with or without them, I think you don't need to worry much about that. But you shouldn't rely on them for the C1 and you should definitely think about how much money you've been giving them and for what kind of service and whether there are not some more reliable alternatives (if I remember correctly, Garyb knew some good skype teachers)

And you get 5-6 exam dates per year? I envy you! Here, we've only got two (for all the levels the same) and they both coincide exactly with the most intensive exam times at the universities.

[I_likes_languages]

@Cavesa: Are you reading this on your phone? I get the feeling that you take me for a native speaker of English? While that is quite flattering, I'm actually not, and I would never pick an anglophone tutor! My native language is German. Both my tutors are college-educated French ladies, from Paris and Lyon respectively, we talk via skype. I'm quite happy with the lessons and corrections they give me, even though they were wrong about the differences between DELF and DALF and your explanations and clarifications have given me better insight and shown me that I need to do my own research properly. They are helping me to improve my general conversation skills, and always prepare good topics for discussion (or for me to hold a monologue...). That is what I asked them to help me with. I also feel that, just for me personally, their tutoring is a good way to structure my study weeks and hold me more accountable.

[garyb]

(if I remember correctly, Garyb knew some good skype teachers)

Afraid not, sorry! A few years ago I had one good French and Italian tutor (native Italian but spoke perfect French), and another good Italian one, but neither are teaching anymore. Unfortunately many good community tutors just teach as a temporary job in between studies or more serious employment. They were great for pushing my comfort zone in conversations, but I don't know if they had any experience with exam preparation and I've never looked for a tutor for that.

It sounds like your current tutors are working great for you and your current needs! Again though, they might just be lacking the specific exam prep experience, which you should consider especially if you go for a C-level exam.

[Cavesa]

@Cavesa: Are you reading this on your phone? I get the feeling that you take me for a native speaker of English? While that is quite flattering, I'm actually not, and I would never pick an anglophone tutor! My native language is German. Both my tutors are college-educated French ladies, from Paris and Lyon respectively, we talk via skype. I'm quite happy with the lessons and corrections they give me, even though they were wrong about the differences between DELF and DALF and your explanations and clarifications have given me better insight and shown me that I need to do my own research properly. They are helping me to improve my general conversation skills, and always prepare good topics for discussion (or for me to hold a monologue...). That is what I asked them to help me with. I also feel that, just for me personally, their tutoring is a good way to structure my study weeks and hold me more accountable.

I'm sorry, no idea how I got the wrong impression! I am perhaps too used to the native English speakers being the majority. And I've also been struggling with paying attention to detail lately.

Your tutors sound great for levels up to B2. And you definitely don't need specific tutoring for that exam. Also, they can probably help you improve beyond that as far as general speaking and writing goes, if they are strict enough (that is the number 1 problem with tutoring advanced people. I am not talking only about my experience and that of other members of this community some of which agree, Reineke has recently dug up some papers exactly about this). But you probably should find someone experienced for the DALF exams, instead of being their guinea pig (no offence meant).

If they help you the way you describe, awesome. But really, make sure they are strict enough, it is no easy as we are paying people exactly because we cannot do something ourselves.

A question: how do you deal with longer writing exercises? I've been considering finding someone for essay writing and the logistics seems to be problematic as everyone is more about just conversation than about sending more complex writing. Do you go over such stuff on skype? Or do you send it before hand? Or do you not just do that for now?

[I_likes_languages]

Two more weeks have passed already. It's insanely hot here, I'll just blame that for not posting earlier.

Vocabulary: Daily anki reviews. I'd like to keep it around 20 new words per day, but sometimes open anki in the morning and realise I've run out of new words. I take new words from youtube videos (mostly colloquial stuff), books and newpaper articles, but I might start to go through a dictionnary soon.
Youtube: Many awesome channels. Going into this, I had a lot of prejudices against YouTube and YouTubers. They are probably all true for some YouTubers, but less so for many others. There is a whole network of French speaking YouTubers who dedicate their time towards the vulgarisation scientifique. La Vidéothèque d'Alexandrie links to a lot of them. I partcularly like Nota Bene and DirtyBiology. Linguisticae is probably of interest for many llorg members. I watch about 15-60 minutes of YouTube videos daily, and so far I've usually noted about 1 new word/expression for every 2 minutes. The returns are somewhat diminishing, but its fun and easy and better than doing nothing at all.
italki: 3 more lessons since last time.
Reading: I decided to drop the last book since I disliked it so much. I've since read two Maigret books, La Première Enquête de Maigret and Maigret voyage from my public library here (they have a lot of Maigret books, but not the one being voted on in the book club). I've also ordered the Isabel Allende book and Les Rois maudits for August.
Assimil: I finally found my book again . I split my time between home, work, my boyfriend's place and my parent's place a lot, so stuff gets lost and misplaced sometimes...
MOOC: There is one on Frontières en tous genres on Coursera that starts on Monday. I'm not sure whether I will participate or hope for a next session, because I already have enough (too many resources!!) on my plate, but it looks really interesting. Anyone else interested? We could be study buddies
Writing: My tutor adviced me to write 5 sentences per day on anything at all, just to get me writing. It works wonderfully so far, I mostly end up writing more than 5 sentences (like.. 6 or 7 ). Sometimes I try to summarise things that have come up during work that day to help me learn work related words and expressions. I kind of feel like a 3rd grader doing that
Test preparation: I'm working my way through the abc DELF B2 book ever so slowly, about 2-3 activities a week. I alternately work on the exercises for oral and written expression with one of my tutors and she gives me advice and corrections. So far we've worked on structuring my texts and eliminating non-standard/colloquial words and expression. Ouais. She has also advised me to start out with shorter and simpler sentences and build it up from there.

@ Cavesa: How we deal with writing exercises: We use googledocs for everything. With that tutor, I have one where we note everything (vocab, corrections, homework, things to read etc.) since the very first lesson and I posted my last essay (only around 250 words for B2) there. I cheated a little and checked for orthography (in the googledoc) and obvious mistakes (I use https://bonpatron.com/, I'm sure there are others) first, so as to not waste too much time on that. During the lesson, we went through the text sentence by sentence with her giving me corrections and suggestions (noting them down in the google doc as we go). In the end she gave me her overall impression (and noted it below the text). I think it works well enough, but I may lack comparison. It might get more difficult with longer texts?

Edit: typos

[MamaPata]

I also have too many resources and not enough time, but that MOOC looks brilliant. It's worth trying, I guess...