The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

[iguanamon]

Thanks for the kind words, James. It's nice to know that someone reads my long posts. I plan on posting from time to time. I found I just couldn't keep a "progress" log going. Since I enjoy "the now" much more than the process, I thought that I would share how I do that. That's something I think I can manage.

I've been following your log from the beginning. My hat's off to you for keeping it going for so long. You've helped a lot of Spanish-learners to get on the way to having the same joy we have from being able to speak it. Right now, I'm watching the Pan American Games finals on ESPN Deportes. I've got a box-set of the first season of Capadocia and Epitafios, both in Spanish, to go through in the coming weeks. This autumn, I'll start a new telenovela on Telemundo. I'm glad to see that you are enjoying your first one. I still remember the word "esquincle" I learned from my first one, years ago. If you are wondering about certain Mexican slang words you may be hearing try tubabel. It's an online (monolingual) slang dictionary for the countries of the Spanish-speaking world.

[basica]

Thanks for giving me a run down of your language learning history I definitely think your choices are quite intriguing and I'm glad you were able to get what you want out of them

[James29]

Getting a glimpse into the history/story of what motivated people to learn languages throughout their life is fascinating. It is like a beautiful long trail through an untouched wilderness that only you have walked. Nobody else will ever walk that trail, but you have shared some of the experience with us.

I do my log simply as motivation to myself and a way to keep myself "honest." I think you will like doing a log and many people will benefit from it.

[iguanamon]

A new book came in the mail for me the other day, which is a rarity since I pretty much read on my kindle e-ink or my tablet. The book is Hamlèt (Prens Dànmak) Trajedi pa William Shakespeare(Tradiksyon an Kreyòl Ayisyen pa Nicole Titus)



It's a translation into Haitian Creole of Hamlet, one of Shakespeare's most well known plays. Shakespeare's words are ingrained in the English language. We can hardly go a day or two without quoting him. I thought it would be interesting to read this. I generally prefer native literature but Haiti is a special case in this regard with Creole- there's not that much of it, literature that is, native or translated. Creole is an official language along with French in Haiti. 100% of Haitians speak Creole, only about 5% speak French. The language of instruction in Haitian schools is French, a language that the students don't speak and one that even the teachers have an imperfect command. Learning is by rote to pass national exams. As a consequence kids don't learn to read and write their own native language, Kreyòl.

In a classroom in Port-au-Prince, Chantou, 9, sits silently at her desk. Nervously watching the teacher, she hopes to be invisible. Like most of her 60 classmates, she understands little of the French from the lecture. But if her memorized lesson is not recited with perfect pronunciation and grammar, she may be ridiculed or punished by her teacher.

In a classroom on La Gonâve island, two 9-year-olds, Kelson and Dieuricame, hover over a computer, excitedly playing a math game. Chatting away in their native Haitian Creole (spelled Kreyòl in Haiti), they experiment together and solve problems. When the teacher announces the end of class, they ask, “May we come back later for more?”

The contrast between these two learning environments illustrates a fundamental challenge in Haitian education, one that implicates language and pedagogy, and has contributed to Haiti’s extreme poverty: The authoritarian French model, which makes children struggle to learn in a language they do not speak, still prevails over an alternative model, in which children build skills through active learning in their native Creole. ...

source

There are many factors that have contributed to Haiti's situation. Language is just one of them.

Ms. Titus translated Hamlèt because she wants Haitians to be able to read the great classics of world literature in their own language, as most of us can. She has also translated Plato into Kreyòl. What is interesting to me are the challenges Ms Titus had in translating Shakespeare into Creole. Here, she talks about "a play on words" endemic in Shakespeare's plays. She also touches on one of the common criticisms of using HC in education, "that the language isn't capable of expressing complex ideas". Those who speak French may be able to understand much of the Creole, sound it out.

Tout nyans sa yo kapab pèdi si yo pa fè lektè yo remake yo. Toujou gen bagay ki pèdi lè yo tradui yon lang nan yon lòt. Nenpòt ki lang yo tradui a, kit anglè vin nan kreyòl, oswa kreyòl vin nan anglè oubyen nan franse, gen de ekspresyon ak mo ki pa gen ekivalan egzakt yo. Sa pa vle di lang kreyòl la pa gen ase mo pou tradui lòt lang ladan li. Se tousenpleman sa k rive nan tout lang. Jeux des mots (jwèt-ak-mo) sa yo pa kapab tradui mo pou mo si ou vle pou yo kenbe sans yo. Konsa mwen tradui yo selon sans fraz la, epi mwen mete nòt anba paj la avèk eksplikasyon pou endike genyen yon jwèt k ap fèt ak mo yo. Jwèt sa yo bay pyès la yon kote komik ki rele an anglè comic relief, ki bay yon okasyon pou pran yon ti repi nan mitan yon pyès ki trajik.

My attempt at translation:

"All this nuance can be lost if it doesn't make the readers notice it. There are always things that are lost when one language is translated into another. Whatever languages that are translated, be it English into Creole, or Creole into English or into French, have some expressions and words that don't have exact equivalents. This doesn't mean that there aren't enough words to translate another language into Creole. This is simply what happens in all languages. Plays on words can't be translated word for word if you want to keep the meaning . Thus I translate them according to their meaning in the phrase, and then I put a footnote at the bottom of the page with an explanation to indicate that there are plays on words. Word plays give the play a bit of comic relief, which gives an opportunity to take a little break in the midst of a tragic play."

Who says HC can't express complex ideas?

Anvan tout bagay : se pou fran ak tèt ou.
E sa vle di tou, menm jan lanwit swiv lajounen,
ou pa dwe pa fran avèk okenn moun

This above all; to thine own self be true:
And it must follow, as the Night the Day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

[Stelle]

Your log continues to be one of my favourites! Thanks for sharing your personal language history - very interesting!

[iguanamon]

Por nada, Stelle. Me gusta mucho de tu log, también.

[Cavesa]

Great log!

Thanks fr the info on Hatian Creole. Truth be told, the "that language cannot express complex ideas" nonsense has been extremely common during the history. It was one of the arguments against reviving Czech in the 18th century (ok, I think it should have been left to rot but for entirely different reasons), today it is a problem of the Arabic dialects, as I learnt from an excellent discussion on Arabic at old HTLAL, it had been one of the reasons why Latin kept being so important for so long. Even though in case of Latin, I would actually agree it is more complex, precise and nuanced than majority of european languages.

So, I can see no reason why the Haitians shouldn't strive for their language being the leading one in schools, bookstores and so on. I am actually surprised that Shakespeare translation is such a recent thing, I though (naively) that the most important books have been translated to every national language already. But I find that article about education being a bit ideological, mixing together several issues and automatically sorting things French=rigid and boring methods Creole=modern and fun methods.

I think the 21st century is a huge opportunity for nations like the Haitians. Technology, if used right, should make the prices of books and knowledge much lower. All the new tools like ebooks, wikipedia, memrise, khan's academy, youtube etc., all that could make education much more affordable if you can get kids to computers at least at school or in libraries. And the education is probably the only thing that can raise the country from poverty.

[Rniks]

I really enjoyed reading your backstory, iguanamon, and look forward to reading more about your experiences in all of your languages. Having an interest in Spanish history, it's pretty cool to see someone here who knows Ladino. Also, I can't help but notice Toma lá dá cá reminds me a lot of my beloved Aquí no hay quien viva, as if Brazilian Portuguese wasn't so tempting already...

[iguanamon]

...I can't help but notice Toma lá dá cá reminds me a lot of my beloved Aquí no hay quien viva, as if Brazilian Portuguese wasn't so tempting already...

Thanks, Rniks, glad to provide some context. TLDC is similar to Aqui no hay quien viva but much more manic and absurd, believe it or not. Try to keep avoiding temptation with Brazilian Portuguese for now . You've got enough on your plate with Spanish and Romanian.

I'll be writing more about Ladino, in later posts. The Iberian peninsula has more than enough languages and variation on the theme to keep me going for a long time. For some reason, I can't seem to leave it, except for Haitian Creole. Looking forward to reading more about your progress. If I can help, let me know.

[Ogrim]

Hi Iguanamon, this is my first post over on the not real HTLAL. Seeing that you and some of the others I follow regularly are already logging over here, I am tempted to start doing so myself, but I will probably wait a few days more and see if there are any new developments over on "the real thing". In the meantime I have to find time to check out both forums - another challenge to my timetable!