The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

[tractor]

I have recently done both Assimil Catalan courses.

Although two of the three authors who made Assimil Le catalan are the same ones who made Assimil El catalán sin esfuerzo in the 1970s, the two courses are very different.

In this thread back on HTLAL, Assimil Le catalan was classified as a "3rd generation" Assimil course while Assimil El catalán sin esfuerzo was classified as a "1st gerneration" course:
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... 37993&PN=3

I haven't used other Assimil courses from the "3rd generation", but I am familiar with both their 1st and 2nd generation beginner courses. I'd say Assimil Le catalan is a typical Assimil beginner course. It follows a familiar pattern: short lessons with a dialogue, an "exercise" consisting of a few additional sentences, a fill in the blanks exercise, and every 7th lesson is a "revision". I think Assimil Le catalan is a well made course. Progression is steady, but not steep. Grammar is introduced systematically and explained in a very clear manner.

Assimil El catalán sin esfuerzo doesn't feel like any of the other "Without Toil" or "With Ease" courses I've used. It feels more like it belongs among the advanced "Using X" courses. This course goes much further than Assimil Le catalan. Progression is steep. Grammar is not, in my opinion, very well explained. Lessons are long. In lesson 21 they suggest that you can do half a lesson each day if they are too long for you. I can't remember having seen that suggestion in any other Assimil course. Towards the end, the recordings of some of the lessons are over 8 minutes long. The "exercises" are often long too, and are not recorded, so they come in addition to the 8 minutes of recorded material. There are none of the typical Assimil jokes here. In fact, the only humour you'll find is in the drawings/cartoons. Around lesson 45 the dialoges end, and from there on, the lessons are a series of lectures on Catalan history, literature, architecture, arts etc. There are also some excerpts from Catalan literature and even some excerpts from legal texts.

[crush]

Around lesson 45 the dialoges end, and from there on, the lessons are a series of lectures on Catalan history, literature, architecture, arts etc. There are also some excerpts from Catalan literature and even some excerpts from legal texts.

I haven't gone through the French course, but i loved the Spanish course. The section at the end where they talked about Catalan history, literature, culture, etc. was my favorite part of the book. I actually found one of the books they had excerpts from (Dies d'ira a l'illa) and read (and enjoyed!) it shortly after going through the course. The discussions on the evolution of the language and the normalization work of Pompeu Fabra were also really interesting and led me to read several books (in Catalan) on the history and evolution of the language, something i've never done (or cared to do) in any other language.

Coming from Spanish, and especially if you have some familiarity with either Italian or French, you don't really need (in my opinion) much hand-holding when learning Catalan. I enjoyed the quick pace and the amount of grammar covered. Though i never do the active wave of Assimil books as i find it too boring and prefer just using language exchanges.

[iguanamon]

...Coming from Spanish, and especially if you have some familiarity with either Italian or French, you don't really need (in my opinion) much hand-holding when learning Catalan. I enjoyed the quick pace and the amount of grammar covered. Though i never do the active wave of Assimil books as i find it too boring and prefer just using language exchanges.

Coming from Spanish, Portuguese, Ladino, and Haitian Creole (French Lexified Creole)- I don't need hand-holding with Catalan either. I just need and want to practice conversational dialog. I can and do watch a series- "Plats Bruts"/"Katalonski". I can and do already read the language at at least B2 level. I have read, so far, these books in Catalan: "Els viatges de Guliver"; "Alícia en terra de meravelles"; "La clau de vidre"; "El zoo d'en Pitus"; "La clau Gaudí"; "Estupor i tremolors", "La fórmula de la felicitat" and now am reading "Collita Roja". I started learning the language by reading "Els Viatges de Guliver". Reading and understanding is not an issue for me. Producing Catalan, speaking and writing, are my issues... which is why I am using the French course. I don't need it to teach me the language per se. I am using it to help me produce dialogs and conversation patterns and to serve as a synergistic part of my multi-track approach along with Digui, Digui and the excellent TY course.

As I've said before, I am not a huge fan of Assimil, but I will give it a fair chance. If there were a three level, 90 lesson, Catalan Pimsleur, I'd probably skip Assimil altogether, but there isn't. Simon and Schuster, if you're listening...?! Since I have the Assimil Spanish base course, I may go through it after finishing the French one. At least then I will be able to proffer my own judgements relative to each one. I am sure I will agree with both your descriptions. It's just at this point, I'd rather not look at Catalan through a Spanish perspective... but that's just me. I did the same thing with Portuguese. I tried to avoid seeing it through Spanish as much as possible... and it worked well for me.

If I wanted (already being able to read and listen relatively easily) I could simply stop learning Catalan now, declare victory and just walk away. However, I know that with a little effort and time I can add in speaking and writing. A more thorough knowledge of, and further developing my skills in, the language will only serve to help me when I decide to learn Aranés to some useful level. One day, when the world opens back up for Americans and safe travel, I want to go somewhere in Catalunya, have meaningful conversations and maybe make some new friends. I'd like to do this with same ease as I can in Spanish and Portuguese.

The good thing about learning Catalan is that the Catalans make it as easy as possible for learners. There is an app called Aparella't, developed by the Plataforma per la Llengua, which makes conversation with native-speaker volunteers easy. I will add this into the mix when I feel I can best take advantage of it.

[crush]

In that case you're absolutely right, much of the book isn't aimed based around colloquial language, it covers more literary parts of the language early on and also provides an interesting story on the Catalan language and its history. You've definitely got the right idea and i wasn't trying to push the course on you, it was more intended for other folks who read your log since. That being said, i did find the transition into speaking fairly painless after finishing the course.

Not sure if you've seen it or not, but i watched Polseres Vermelles right after finishing the Assimil course and fell in love with that show. I later re-watched parts of the show in the Spanish dub (done by the same actors) and it felt stale, perhaps because the actors weren't professional voice actors or perhaps just because something was missing when it wasn't in Catalan, i don't know. But i highly recommend the show if you ever get the time!

[iguanamon]

Català
I'm making progress with Catalan: up to lesson 38 in Assimil; Unit 9 in Digui, Digui; and lesson 4 in TY. I've finished Chapter 6 in "Collita roja"/"Red Harvest" by Dashiell Hammett.

So far, I am not having any difficulty parsing the French grammar explanations. Although how Catalan differs from French is not useful for me, I can still glean some useful information from these explanations. As usual, it's the little things in grammar that can give a learner the most trouble. I am no exception. Right now it's "s'en hi"... and they're just little tiny particles... but getting it right... The "periphrastic preterite" tense, is a bit of a hurdle mentally to get my mind around it. It takes me a while to warm up to it. It's just so odd in the romance languages to have to use the present tense of "to go" (anar) with an infinitive to express an action in the past. At first when I start reading and see the construction, I want to think it's referring to the future. It takes reading a paragraph or two to get used to it again.

One feature of Catalan is the periphrastic preterite tense for referring to the remote past, which is constructed with characteristic present-tense forms of the verb anar (to go) and the infinitive of a verb (vaig parlar, vas/vares parlar, va parlar, vam/vàrem parlar, vau/vàreu parlar, van/varen parlar). This tense, rare in Romance languages and shared only with some Gascon and Aragonese (Benasque, Gistaín) dialects, seems to have existed in Catalan since at least the 13th century.

The other tenses are very similar to Spanish and Portuguese to me. This is one of the reasons why I don't find it very difficult to read the language. The grammar being similar helps, as does being able to rely on my other languages to help with unknown words. Of course, it's the differences that make Catalan it's own unique language... and there are plenty of differences, .

I'm up to episode 34 of "Plats Bruts". I finished one of the iconic epsiodes, no. 33 "Tinc Nació". All of the episodes have a combination of "Tinc" (I have; I've got) something. Tinc Nació means, roughly, "I have a nation". The episode is about the two main characters, Lopes and David's trip to Madrid, which, for Catalan nationalists is "the belly of the beast". The episode dates from 2000. There are all kind of references to Catalan pride and nationality in contrast with Castilian national characteristics. Lopes is visited by a "ghost of his national conscience"- "la seva consciencia nacional" a few times in the episode. Though Lopes likes Madrid, he ultimately knows he can't stay and knows where he belongs-

Here, El Lopes is in a Madrid bar that looks rather suspiciously like their regular bar in Barcelona, except with free beer and tapas. I guess TV3 didn't allow for big budgets. He is explaining the differences between the two cultures to a Castilian, in a good hearted way. He's speaking mostly Spanish. The ease with which Catalans can switch between the two is pretty amazing to me, but then again, I didn't grow up in a bilingual city like Barcelona. El Lopes is right, Catalan definitely has more vowels... and you've got to love a culture that makes a "saint" out of Gaudí!
Video clip unavailable

Not sure if you've seen it or not, but i watched Polseres Vermelles right after finishing the Assimil course and fell in love with that show. I later re-watched parts of the show in the Spanish dub (done by the same actors) and it felt stale, perhaps because the actors weren't professional voice actors or perhaps just because something was missing when it wasn't in Catalan, i don't know. But i highly recommend the show if you ever get the time!

Moltes gràcies, Crush. No, I haven't seen it yet. I will be sure to check it out when I've finished with "Plats Bruts". Any series that Steven Spielberg optioned for the US market must have something going for it.

I am getting loads of synergy between my courses, the series, and the reading. I'll see a word in a course, or reading, or in the series and run into it in one of the other... and... that's the plan. It's why I like and recommend the multi-track approach.

Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol.
I'm still reading a few pages in Rashi and reviewing solitreo. There is a class being offered online for beginners, intermediate, and advanced for $30 USD.

A1: Introduksión. -No es necesario tener conocimientos previos- Saludos, La Famiya, La Kaza, Los Numeros. Gramatika i Verbos
A2: Ufisios i Lavoros, Plantas, Frutas i Kumidas. Vernos
B1: El Sieklo de la Vida Djudia: Nasimiento (Fajadura, Beraja de Berit i Fadas), Tefelin, Boda
B2: Bendisiones, Dichos i Refranes, Maldiciones, Aynarah
C1: Literatura Sefaradí 1: El Princhipiko, El Kishot, Djoha

I've already read El Princhipiko and a lot of Djoha. I could only find one chapter of "El Kishot" (Don Quixote) online. I don't know if the class is worth my time.

Kreyòl Ayisyen
I have finished reading and listening to the Atravè Labib chapter studies of the Book of Esther. Now I have a deeper understanding of the Jewish holiday of Pourim/Purim. It's ironic that I got this from Haitian Creole and not Ladino. You can't make this stuff up! Next it's on to Jòb/Job.

Português
Last week, one of the Spanish accounts I follow on twitter tweeted about a Caetano Veloso song in Spanish. Of course, I know and appreciate him best in Portuguese. It was a nice, warm Sunday evening and I found this video of Caetano singing a duet with another one of my favorite Brazilian singers- Seu Jorge

Español
Béisbol is still weird without fans, but I am watching in Spanish when I can. Along with twitter, my car radio, my TV and my neighbors, and some of my clients, I never lose touch with the language. The Spanish song, sung by Caetano Veloso, came from the Spanish film "Hable Con Ella"- "Cucurrucucu Paloma". Even if Caetano Veloso isn't a native Spanish-speaker, it's still a beautiful song.


Mèsi anpil pou nou isit la avèk mwen jodi a. M a wè nou pita. Orevwa pou kounye a.

[iguanamon]

Catalan
Spare time is short but I keep progressing with Catalan. I am up to lesson 55 of "Catalan sans peine". Having never done an Assimil course before, I thought I would do it as the course suggests and include the "deuxième vague"- the "second wave"

Vous entamez aujourd'hui la deuxième vague, c'est-à-dire la phase active de votre apprentissage du catalan. Le but de cette deuxième vague est de consolider les bases de vos connaissances à mesure que vous progressez. Comment procéder? C'est facile: après avoir étudié votre leçon comme chaque jour, vous allez reprendre une leçon depuis le début du livre (nous vous indiquerons chaque fois laquelle; ici vous devez reprendre la 1re leçon). Mais celle fois, vous traduirez à haute voix le dialogue français en catalan. N'hésitez pas à articuler clairement et à prononcer à voix haute en contrôlant votre traduction à l'aide du texte enregistré. Si vous avez hésité Sur une prononciation, reprenez la phrase aussi souvent que nécessaire. Ce travail supplémentaire vous permettra de vérifier ce que vous avez appris au cours des leçons antérieures, presque sans vous en rendre compte. Il renforcera votre capacité d'assimilation naturelle. Bon courage!

To sum up, the above instructions say that the point of the second wave is to consolidate your base of knowledge as you progress. After having studied your lesson as you've been doing every day, you go back to the first lesson at the beginning of the book reading aloud your translation. This supplemental work will allow you to check that you've learned the prior lessons, almost without even knowing it. It will reinforce your capability of natural assimilation.

Well, we'll see. I'll go through it but as the lessons proceed, my lack of knowledge of French tenses and grammar becomes a hindrance in my being able to derive Catalan from my broken French as the lessons grow more complex... and I am not learning French but Catalan. (Although, I am learning some French as I go, it's all passive.) I can see that the lessons in the 50's are growing more complex in verb tenses. Verb tenses are one of the main issues with romance languages. Ironically, thanks to my other languages, I have less trouble with the Catalan tenses than I do with the French.

Two books arrived to help me. My English-base handbook of "Digui, Digui" is used but in great shape with no markings. It was relatively cheap, under $20 US with shipping from the UK. The second book I have is "Plats Bruts; els guions; Primera temporada"- this one was more expensive ($30 US in shipping alone from Spain, $25 for the book!) and I wouldn't have bought it if I could've found srt subtitle files online for the series. My usual source, subtitles.org, only has one episode with an srt file- "Tinc nació". One transcript is just not enough for me.

Right now, I'm up to episode 45 of the 72 episode Plats Bruts series on the TV3 Catalunya website. So I've got 27 episodes to go. I am at 2/3 of the way through the series now. In the past, my first series has usually been a novela, and only afterwards do I dare try comedy. This series seems to suit my mood and needs right now. When I finish the series I'll go back to the first season to work with it intensively. I have the scripts. I can read them and then watch; I can transcribe and use the script to check my work; I can switch it up many ways.

Some of the slang and cultural references in Plats Bruts will just go right over my head. That's ok. I will get the vast majority of it and that will be good enough for me. This exercise will help me to consolidate my listening skills just as it has with other languages.

I'm up to lesson 10 of "Digui, Digui". I will only do one lesson a week until I finish Assimil. Time is the one limiting factor in self-learning languages- there's never enough of it. After Assimil, I'd like to finish both volumes of "Digui, Digui".

In reading, I'm close to halfway in Dashiell Hammett's "Collita roja/Red Harvest". While I have sometimes four or five words to look up per page, some pages have only two or three words to look up. Words do repeat and even I can get some of those into my thick head. I like the synergy between the course(s), the series and the book. I'll often read or hear a word or phrase in one, and then, it pops up in the other or even both. That's my srs. It may not be efficient but it does work well for me.

At some point, I will probably write a post to show people how to use a cheap, used android tablet as a resource for learning through pdf's... without having to be connected to the internet. I'll have to include plenty of screenshots to illustrate my instructions, so it will be time consuming to produce.

Até logo, meus amigos. Tchauzinho!

[tangleweeds]

At some point, I will probably write a post to show people how to use a cheap, used android tablet as a resource for learning through pdf's... without having to be connected to the internet. I'll have to include plenty of screenshots to illustrate my instructions, so it will be time consuming to produce.

Cool! I look forward to seeing that, as I'm all in favor of both finding uses for older tech and new learning strategies. But I'm a patient woman, so take the time you need. Stay well!

[rdearman]

At some point, I will probably write a post to show people how to use a cheap, used android tablet as a resource for learning through pdf's... without having to be connected to the internet. I'll have to include plenty of screenshots to illustrate my instructions, so it will be time consuming to produce.

Seriously, how hard is it? Take the SD card out, put in PC, dump the PDF's on it, put it back in the tablet, read. (Or is this simple because I'm an IT guy?)

[iguanamon]

At some point, I will probably write a post to show people how to use a cheap, used android tablet as a resource for learning through pdf's... without having to be connected to the internet. I'll have to include plenty of screenshots to illustrate my instructions, so it will be time consuming to produce.

Seriously, how hard is it? Take the SD card out, put in PC, dump the PDF's on it, put it back in the tablet, read. (Or is this simple because I'm an IT guy?)

Yes and NO. We definitely have a lot of IT people here on the forum. Without you and emk, we wouldn't even have a forum! So, I am grateful for your efforts and continuing work. What sometimes gets forgotten is that there is also a large percentage of people here who are NOT IT people. Our computer skills vary from "pretty good for not being a programmer" to "I can turn it on and click".

What I want to show people who are not programmers or IT, is how they can best utilize pdf software to make language learning easier with a pdf that can be manipulated; that there are useful tools for us in pdf software (both the free reader and creator software); what OCR is; how they can use a pdf dictionary; how to make notes with adobe and use the comments list to review them; how to use night mode on pdf to reduce eye strain; how to make and use a properly aligned parallel text (without complicated software) on a tablet and how it can be easy and avoid distraction; that they can download an e-book reader software and have their tablet do double duty. How to actually load pdf's, e-books, and audio to the device; that they don't need to be online all the time to learn.

A few weeks ago, a member talked in their log about how they were unable to study because of a power outage and wished to be less reliant on technology as a result. I survived over two months without electricity and six months without wired internet and still got language activity done, using my tablets and phone- mostly offline. Technology can still be used to make our lives easier and, once set up, can indeed be used for very long periods of time while offline.

So, this is kind of what I plan on doing. It will be a kind of mash-up of my how to make your own parallel text and then how I use my own tablets for learning.

For years on the forum I've seen people talk about writing a script and using grease monkey, for example. Subs2srs looks like a great tool for language-learners... but mainly for people who know something about programming... and y'all ain't making it out of the box easy for those of us who are not on your level of IT. I know it might come as a bit of a shock, but not all of us here on the forum are programmers! My post will be for them... or, if you think it's a waste, I'll just give it a miss.

[Raconteur]

A few weeks ago, a member talked in their log about how they were unable to study because of a power outage and wished to be less reliant on technology as a result. I survived over two months without electricity and six months without wired internet and still got language activity done, using my tablets and phone- mostly offline. Technology can still be used to make our leaves easier and, once set up, can indeed be used for very long periods of time while offline.

In addition to Internet/electricity limitations, this type of a setup could be of great use to people who prefer to use a digital tool (for PDFs, dictionary, etc.) but find themselves easily distracted by a fully functional (and connected) computer or smartphone. Shame on me, but I belong to this camp. In fact, I am now thinking of printing out some materials I have on PDF, and migrating audio to an old iPod, just because my computer is diverting my attention elsewhere. I feel the pull of work on deadline, new messages, open tabs, etc.