The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:11 pm

iguanamon wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Glad you're enjoying 1984 :) .... South Florida sounds like an interesting melting pot of intersting cultures.

Ahhh, Camarade PM, mon concitoyen de l'Océanie, I knew you'd appreciate that! You should re-read the book en français. It's right up your alley, gentle nudge.

South Florida is indeed a real potpourri of cultures. I speak more Spanish there than I do in Puerto Rico :lol: . All of the major languages of the Americas are there.


Sounds great in terms of languages!

You'll be pleased to know I own a copy of 1984, en français même, but it might be 2084 by the time I get to it. Disclosure- I've never read it! (in any language), but I have very often come across it being referred to in detail in the circles I keep ;) It's actually at the top or close of books I actually want to read. Save us if that day ever comes, that'll be the day it's PM for PM.

If you really enjoy 1984.... Another French translation I own is Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451. Same genre, very similar 'hobbies' with this author, apparently. Then there's Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World. He really did not care for humanity (in our world) and unlike Orwell, I believe he took his disdain for human liberties to the grave. We can thank these men for playing their roles to aid in bringing about our utterly controlled world of today. I own Huxley's book as well. I've not read any of these yet. I'm sure you'd find them in Spanish and Portuguese, maybe even HC if interested.

You could try some cold hard detailed truths from David Icke, but if you find his credibility too tainted, try Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope- an insider tells it really how it is, was, has been, and will be- a world of deceit. I'll shut up now ;)
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:...You'll be pleased to know I own a copy of 1984, en français même, but it might be 2084 by the time I get to it. Disclosure- I've never read it! (in any language), but I have very often come across it being referred to in detail in the circles I keep ;) It's actually at the top or close of books I actually want to read. Save us if that day ever comes, that'll be the day it's PM for PM.

If you really enjoy 1984.... Another French translation I own is Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451. Same genre, very similar 'hobbies' with this author, apparently. Then there's Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World. ...

Comrade PM, you really should read 1984, given your predilection for conspiracy theories and world domination politics. You've proved what Mark Twain said about classic books... "a book which people praise but don't read" :lol: . I have indeed read Fahrenheit 451 and A Brave New World before. After 1984 I think I'll want to read something lighter.

I'll also add a recommendation for another book I'll think you'd enjoy "Globalia" par Jean-Christophe Rufin. You can conspiracy theory to your heart's content just as easily en français même comme l'anglais, mon ami, after you finish your 99 courses, of course, of course, course!
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Feb 28, 2017 1:01 am

iguanamon wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:...You'll be pleased to know I own a copy of 1984, en français même, but it might be 2084 by the time I get to it. Disclosure- I've never read it! (in any language), but I have very often come across it being referred to in detail in the circles I keep ;) It's actually at the top or close of books I actually want to read. Save us if that day ever comes, that'll be the day it's PM for PM.

If you really enjoy 1984.... Another French translation I own is Ray Bradbury's Farenheit 451. Same genre, very similar 'hobbies' with this author, apparently. Then there's Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World. ...

Comrade PM, you really should read 1984, given your predilection for conspiracy theories and world domination politics. You've proved what Mark Twain said about classic books... "a book which people praise but don't read" :lol: . I have indeed read Fahrenheit 451 and A Brave New World before. After 1984 I think I'll want to read something lighter.

I'll also add a recommendation for another book I'll think you'd enjoy "Globalia" par Jean-Christophe Rufin. You can conspiracy theory to your heart's content just as easily en français même comme l'anglais, mon ami, after you finish your 99 courses, of course, of course, course!


You are indeed correct, Monsieur l'Iguane, mon ami, as is Mark Twain. I definitely want to get to these books, all the more reason to soldier on through these courses quickly as opposed to intermittently.

Your recommendation of Globalia is certainly right down my alley. Thank you kindly kind sir. I've a whole host of other books also in the same genre. Can't wait to sink my teeth into them. That is what you do with books right? Eat them? I know how to use a course or two, but books, ummm :?
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:34 pm

The translation of George Orwell's 1984 is in the bag now and it was really good. The book was translated in 2013 by Miguel Temprano García. Translation is always a compromise. One of the reasons to learn languages is to read and listen without the filter of translation, which is always imperfect. In this case I read an English book in Spanish translation because "I was going to read it anyway so why not in Spanish". If I'm going to spend a couple of weeks reading a book, I don't want to do that in my native language unless I don't have an alternative available. This translation was well done.

Which brings me to a point about translations and their use to language-learning. Of course, many books, tv series and films have been translated into many languages. I don't advocate solely using translations from L1, while the language isn't necessarily a true representation of L2 as if it were written originally in L2, there is value for language-learners in using them besides ease and familiarity of subject matter. A classic of English literature like 1984 or Alice's Adventures in Wonderland , or a hugely popular series like Harry Potter is going to have a lot written about it- analyses, articles, chapter summaries, online quizzes, etc. These can all be used to check comprehension while reading a translation even if they are in English. All you have to do is search- Spark Notes is a good place to look for this kind of stuff.

Popular dubbed tv series are also quite useful. I'm talking about very popular and even "cult" series here- like The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Trek and even Westworld. It seems the more intricate the plot, the more people are intrigued and inspired enough to write episode reviews, detailed analyses and engage in speculation. All of which is useful to the learner. A learner can also get the benefit of having watched the show in English and then in L2. Of course, L2 cultural transmission is lost when this is done, but I do believe that the benefit of watching a dubbed series for a learner is sufficiently large enough that dubbed series can be a great way to bridge the gap to jumping into native series. I did it the opposite way around. Now I just watch the dubbed series for enjoyment.

I've watched all of The Walking Dead and Two Broke Girls in Portuguese dub and enjoyed them. I watch TWD after having watched the episode in English later in the week. I got so used to the dubbed voices on Two Broke Girls that I recoil from the girls in English and have only managed to watch part of an episode in the original. I don't have Amazon Prime so I've been watching the Amazon series The Man in the High Castle (based on the dystopian alt history novel by Phillip K. Dick) in Spanish dub and its quite well done. Dubbing takes some getting used to and some of it is better done than others, which can be so bad as to be unwatchable. Animation is one genre that seems to work extraordinarily well with dubbing.

The use of dubbing only works for big languages and only ones where dubbing is preferred over subtitling. If TWD was dubbed in Haitian Creole (which seems like a natural since we get the word "zombie" from "zonbi" in HC) I'd be all over it! Such is not the case in HC, LAFC or Ladino/Djudeo Espanyol. You need a well established dubbing infrastructure and an audience for the end result too.

Also, non-legitimate streaming sites are becoming ever increasingly evil. One of my streaming sites for Brazilian television won't work with adblock installed. There are so many ads, at least four with one on top of the over, all with deceptive "x's" that are linked to pop ups that I can barely see the enlarge screen button for the video- which makes the ads go away without "x"ing out of anything. One site I use in Spanish sends popups when the search box is clicked inside, then when the play button is clicked, and then again when the video enlarge button is clicked. It is getting more and more difficult to use these sites. My favorite subtitle site, opensubtitles.org, has turned evil with the same thing leading to an evil .exe download box appearing- word to the wise: NEVER click to download an exe file from any of these sites! I only wanted Catalan subs not an evil exe file, thank you! Then again, it's all tied to advertising and these site owners are not running these sites for altruistic purposes.

I continue with reading, watching and listening in all my languages. I'm still watching Sai de Baixo from Brazil. I've put "Ministério do Tempo" on hold because- "Geo Block". Ahhh, the tribulations of a language-learner living outside of a TL country and trying to read books, watch TV, etc.

I'll leave you all with a video of a song I've been jamming to lately from Colombia- Grammy Winning Choc Quib Town's Pescao Envenenao. Sounds really good in the car with the windows rolled down, cranked to the max, driving to my favorite beach.

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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby BOLIO » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:16 pm

Note to self. I will truly "know" Spanish when I can understand this song without the subtitles.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Brun Ugle » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:53 am

You can always count on Iguanamon for great music. And great advice.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:57 pm

Thank you Brun Ugle. Bolio, it's just a matter of listening, more and more and more.

Spanish
I got caught up in el Clásico Mundial de Bésibol/The World Baseball Classic. I'd been following the US team and our neighbor, Puerto Rico. I was most impressed by The Netherlands team (of course, heavily stocked with players from their Caribbean territories). This tournament showcased the popularity of the game in many places in the world, including Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, The Netherlands, Italy, many countries in Latin America and even Israel. The games were broadcast on ESPN Deportes in Spanish and I watched several. Last night the US defeated Puerto Rico in Los Ángeles 8-0, but the island of Puerto Rico is so proud of their team reaching the championship game that they had a parade for "Los Nuestros" anyway, win or lose. There's a lot of pride in Puerto Rico or as the saying goes from the 1995 rap song by Taíno- "¡Yo soy boricua pa' que tú lo sepas!". Borínquen is the original indigenous pre-columbian Taíno name for the island of Puerto Rico and a "boricua" is a Puerto Rican.


I just bought a new book from one of my favorite Mexican authors, Laura Martínez-Belli, Carlota: la emperatriz que enloqueció de amor. Carlota was born Marie Charlotte Amélie Augustine Victoire Clémentine Léopoldine. She was a Belgian princess who married the Archduke Maximillian of Austria. Maximiliano was placed on the "throne" of Mexico in 1862 by the French in a blatant colonial interventionist coup. This was during the US Civil War. Of course this blatant intervention was rejected by the Mexican people. Mexican President Beito Juárez was returned to office in 1867 after Emperor Maximiliano was executed.

Empress Carlota took her role quite seriously but was frustrated by not being able to bear a child and by the precarious situation of her husband's rule. Carlota undertook a tour of Mexico to learn about her "subjects" and even went to the Yucatán. She was sent back to Europe to plead for help for the regime in 1865. In Europe, she flitted from capital to capital and eventually succumbed to paranoia and mental illness. Though she deeply loved her husband, it was said that she had an affair shortly after arriving in Europe with a Belgian army officer and gave birth to a son who became a French military officer who served in both World Wars. Meanwhile, her husband's rule ended with his execution. I'm looking forward to seeing how the author fleshes out this story- short, 28 second, "book-trailer" follows for those who may be interested.


I discovered Laura Martínez-Belli because one of the first books I read in Spanish, many years ago, was El país bajo mi piel by her aunt, Nicaraguan author/poet/revolutionary Gioconda Belli. El país bajo mi piel is an autobiography of Gioconda's life as a woman, a wife to three husbands, a writer, a poet and a high-placed Sandinista revolutionary. To me, it was a fascinating read. I highly recommend it. So when I was in the Miami airport a couple of years ago I found Laura's book La Última Página for sale and I bought it.

Image

Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol I finished a short novel in Rashi script- Salvado por su ija/Saved by his daughter. This was evidently a translation of a Russian book. The story deals with the daughter of a Russian couple exiled to Siberia by the Czar and her trek across Russia to St Petersburg to get a pardon to free them. The pdf book has scanning issues on some pages, but not so bad that the text can't be read.

Portuguese
I've been watching some live TV from Brazil. I found a new streaming site that is not too evil. It has several Brazilian channels. I still listen to RFI Brasil and Deutsche Welle Para África every day during my morning walk. I've started a new book that I'm over a third of the way through that was inspired by my watching The Man In The High Castle- Philip K. Dick's O homem do castelo alto. So, my translated dystopian, kind of sci-fi, jaunt continues.

Haitian Creole
My Bible reading, Bible study reading and listening continues. Making my way through Leviticus now. I'd like to go through the Pentateuch and the Gospels. I don't know if I can do the five years it would take to complete all of the "Atravè Labib"/"Through The (whole) Bible" program. It's doing wonders for my Kreyòl though- both reading, listening and speaking. It also dovetails nicely with my Ladino, as I re-read the same chapters in Rashi script. I also like how it helps me to understand the Scripture in a different, deeper, way and spurs my philosophical side as well. I continue to read and listen to "Lavwadlamerik"/VOA Nouvèl/News.

Bon, m swete nou yon bon semenn. Orevwa pou kounyea.
Last edited by iguanamon on Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:04 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Ani » Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:28 pm

iguanamon wrote: There's a lot of pride in Puerto Rico or as the saying goes from the 1995 rap song by Taíno- "¡Yo soy boricua pa' que tú lo sepas!". Borínquen is the original indigenous pre-columbian Taíno name for the island of Puerto Rico and a "boricua" is a Puerto Rican.



Thanks for sharing this. I grew up in a town that was roughly half Puerto Rican half Columbian in population. I have heard that song so many times I think I know all the words to sing along (but not what any of them mean). I know the use of boricua in conversation but never actually bothered to figure out what people were calling each other or why.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Xmmm » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:02 pm

iguanamon wrote:Portuguese
I've been watching some live TV from Brazil. I found a new streaming site that is not too evil. It has several Brazilian channels. I still listen to RFI Brasil and Deutsche Welle Para África every day during my morning walk. I've started a new book that I'm over a third of the way through that was inspired by my watching The Man In The High Castle- Philip K. Dick's O homem do castelo alto. So, my dystopian jaunt continues. .


I think if you read The Man In The High Castle as primarily dystopian fiction, you are missing out big time. 1984, Fahrenheit 451, Brave New World -- they are fine. But they are one dimensional.

But PKD is asking questions in his book like "does -1 * -1 equal 1 or does it equal something else entirely?" and even "does 1 even equal 1?".

If you've only seen the TV series (I haven't), maybe they tilted it that way to make it more approachable. But it's a very profound book.

When I finished it, I had a very lightheaded feeling of "where the hell am I?". PKD is a very uneven author and High Castle may be his best book, but that book has the same kind of depth as stuff by Dostoyevsky, Mishima, and Pelevin.
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iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:39 pm

Xmmm wrote:
iguanamon wrote:...PKD is a very uneven author and High Castle may be his best book, but that book has the same kind of depth as stuff by Dostoyevsky, Mishima, and Pelevin.


Oh, I totally agree! There's a lot more going on here than just the Allies losing WW II. The backstory of how he wrote the novel is fascinating. He even consulted the I Ching when he needed to make a decision about a character's direction. I don't normally like to read translations from English, but, since I wanted to read the book anyway... why not in Portuguese.

Ani wrote:...I think I know all the words to sing along (but not what any of them mean). I know the use of boricua in conversation but never actually bothered to figure out what people were calling each other or why.
You're welcome, Ani. Thanks for stopping by my log. It's a simple little sentence but there is a lot going on here. First there's a great use of the subjunctive here "sepas" - "pa que tó lo sepas", with the emphasis on "tú": "so that YOU know". I'd translate it freely like this. "I am Puerto Rican, just so YOU know". Joel Bosh could have said "Yo soy puertorriqueño para que tú lo sepas" but the use of "boricua" reinforces Puerto Rican pride because of its indigenous, Taíno, origen. The use of "pa" for "para" is very Puerto Rican and very Caribbean. If you order in a PR fast food restaurant like El Mesón or Pollo Tropical, you'll be asked (if you don't specify) "pa' aquí "o "pa' llevar" (for here or to go) which almost gets slurred into "paqui" sometimes. So the conscious choice of an indigenous word for nationality and Caribbean Spanish usage of "pa" really empasizes the Puerto Rican-ess of the sentence which is talking about pride in being Puerto Rican.

I was once over there with a friend who spoke low intermediate Spanish. She had no idea what "pa' allá" (slurred to sound like "pa ya") meant and was flummoxed. I explained it to her and gave the example of what I sometimes to do to English, as someone from the Upper US South. "Y'on't to?" = "Do you want to?". Of course, I don't speak that way unless I know someone fairly well or we're both from the same background. This is just an example of what most courses don't get around to teaching. It's not Real Academia pronunciation, but in Puerto Rico and the Spanish-speaking Caribbean it's quite common to hear.
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