The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

[SGP]

iguanamon, if this is a question that you would accept to answer, are you able to even think fluently about just anything in any of Spanish or Portuguese after it has become a major part of your life?
This kind of questions possibly would be asked more frequently by semi-geeks as myself than by others.
It is simply a part of my interest in languages, that is all.

In addition, muchas gracias for the recent correction in the Spanish subforum. It could take a bit of tiempo until I reply, because at times, there are several words that I need to look up. But I plan to do so ASAP (meant in a Swahili-inspired way of "actually doing things that need to be done, but without hurrying").

[iguanamon]

We never have enough information here to give an accurate reply, but here goes. Yes, I think in the languages when I am using them. Sometimes I can't remember in which language I've read something in, or listened to- English, Spanish or Portuguese. That just comes with time and use.

You seem to be new in languages and enjoying learning. I'm not going to criticize your choice of learning several, though I will say, it would probably help you to concentrate on learning at least one language to a high level before you go trying to learn all of them at the same time. Doing this gives you all kinds of knowledge and experience that you can put to work learning more. Language-learning for most of us is about fun. As long as you are having fun learning, that's the main thing.

There is something about the forum. Because this is a somewhat esoteric activity, the forum is one of the few places we can go where other people are interested in the same things we are. When you first discover it, it's really exciting. We have members here who are much more accomplished than I am. These folks do amazing things every day. It can almost feel like being a kid in a candy store. Just remember that most of the people you see here who study or have learned multiple languages didn't start off learning a gazillion languages simultaneously. If I had tried to do that, I wouldn't have ended up with any languages at a high level. I had to learn how a language works. Once I did, it was like having a key that made learning easier and more efficient for me. It made the process more enjoyable and worthwhile to me to make it a part of my life, which was one of the main reasons why I wanted to learn them anyway.

Now, I can't imagine how my life would be without being multi-lingual. My music is multilingual, my spirituality is in Ladino and Haitian Creole. My reading is multilingual. I have friends in my languages. I have learned a lot about the parts of the world and the cultures in which I am most interested. It has been, and continues to be, a rewarding experience for me.

I won't call myself a polyglot because I haven't learned languages from diverse backgrounds... yet. The closest I've come are with Haitian Creole and Ladino, both of which have strong non IE influences, and in the case of Ladino- reading easily in three Hebrew scripts. I wish you good luck and enjoyment in your studies. Welcome to the forum, SGP.

[SGP]

We never have enough information here to give an accurate reply, but here goes. Yes, I think in the languages when I am using them. Sometimes I can't remember in which language I've read something in, or listened to- English, Spanish or Portuguese. That just comes with time and use.

As for me, I am currently not able to think in Spanish (not to mention Portuguese), except when it is about a clearly limited subset of what I would think about in my native language. The only other language on my list that I am able to think in about just everything is English. And that also explains why I (elsewhere on this forum) spoke about "knowing persons" using saber in Spanish, not using the other word that I already learned, too (conocer), but didn't recall at that time.

You seem to be new in languages and enjoying learning.

I do enjoy learning them, but I am not at all new to languages. However, I still am rather new to this forum. And I also understand why there can be the impression sometimes that I only started a relatively short time ago.

I'm not going to criticize your choice of learning several, though I will say, it would probably help you to concentrate on learning at least one language to a high level before you go trying to learn all of them at the same time. Doing this gives you all kinds of knowledge and experience that you can put to work learning more.

It is true that when someone is learning several languages at once (even if there is some rotation), then he has less possibilities of coming closer to mastery of any particular one. And I also was thinking more than once if I should entirely focus on Spanish while postponing all others. However, I still decided against doing so. As for me, there is some importance to have several languages available. For example, some time ago I had a conversation with some forum members in Italian and French, and it wouldn't have been possible if I couldn't use these languages today. (However, this doesn't mean at all that my level of knowledge of all of them would be approximately the same. Things are very different).

Just remember that most of the people you see here who study or have learned multiple languages didn't start off learning a gazillion languages simultaneously. If I had tried to do that, I wouldn't have ended up with any languages at a high level.

Again, it is very true that the more one focuses on several languages at the same time, the less he can make fast major steps related to advancing with any of those in particular. But there is at least something that I am able to do (and I actually do it, too) even within the limits of the learning method I have chosen. And this is about putting the main focus on one of them, which is Spanish in my case. A long time ago, I gave Spanish and French equal attention (50%/50% of the "main focus" energy available), but then I noticed that if I would prioritize a little bit, this could mean something like being able to give one of those two 150% or even more of that energy. And so I did.

I had to learn how a language works.

Same here, too. And it did take a lot of time to gradually realize more and more about it.

I wish you good luck and enjoyment in your studies. Welcome to the forum, SGP.

Thank you for the welcome. And I wish you all the best. (But I do not mean it in the "farewell" way. We possibly would meet again some time, like when I finish my reply in the Spanish subforum.)

[iguanamon]

I am not at all new to languages. However, I still am rather new to this forum. And I also understand why there can be the impression sometimes that I only started a relatively short time ago.

I apologize. Your profile has so many languages in it that I didn't notice until now that your native language is German. So, you have indeed learned a language to a high level. Still, I'd probably trim down my target language list if I were you, but, I'm not you. So, keep on doing what you enjoy.

[iguanamon]

It's been a while since I've posted. I've been busy with work and it's a busy time of year for me.

Catalan
Catalan has been taking over my focus in languages the last few weeks. A new language often does that, whether you want it to or not. I did make a special effort starting on Sunday to get back into Ladino and Haitian Creole.

I find that I can read just about anything in the language fairly easily. I've been watching Merlí on netflix and have to rely much less on the Spanish or Portuguese subtitles. Still, I can't say I can speak Catalan because I can't speak Catalan. I haven't been studying it. I haven't tried to write it or speak it.

So I thought I would try working through a course and after trying "El Catalán para Dummies" and the web based "ParlaCat", I'm actually doing my first Assimil course. Before everyone thinks I have/will become an Assimil fan boy, I don't think I will. I'm not using the audio because I just can't stand the glacial, unnatural slowness. I know some folks like it that way. I understand why Assimil does it like that and the principal behind it, but it's just not my thing. Fortunately, I can get pronunciation and listening skills elsewhere.

Anyway, without the audio, I am enjoying the courses. Yes, courses plural. I am using both "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" and "Le Catalan Sans Peine". "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" cuts a learner no slack. I am on lesson 21 in both courses which is a review. The French based course has 7 dialog sentences and the Spanish based course has 15 dialog sentences. I find that the French base course is more focused on everyday speech and the Spanish-base course is about illustrating the differences in Catalan and Spanish grammar and vocabulary. Oddly enough, I think the two courses complement each other well and I get plenty of synergy from my reading and listening. Still, there is quite a lot out there freely available for learning Catalan. The Catalans actually want more people to learn their language.

Some may be wondering how I can learn from a French base course when I don't speak or study French. Well, I do have both Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole at high levels, plus my other Romance languages and English. It would be amazing if I couldn't read French to some extent. There's that and the fact that the French in language courses is just not on the same level as reading Proust or trying to watch a French film for example. So, I can use it effectively. I can understand the grammar explanations and do the exercises... which I don't translate to French but I can use the French as my answer key to check my English or Spanish translation, at least so far.

I decided to use the French base course because when I was learning Portuguese, I found that trying to learn with a Spanish base course had the effect of making me see Portuguese as if looking through a Spanish prism. I ended up dropping Spanish base courses completely to go with DLI. Had there been a DLI, FSI or Pimsleur Catalan course available, that's what I would use. In this case I find that using the French base course helps me to avoid seeing Catalan through a "Spanish prism" quite nicely.

El Catalán is asking me to go back to lesson 15 in an "active wave", so I'll do that. The course packs a lot of information in these lessons. It remains to be seen if I will complete the Assimil courses. I'll probably keep advancing with the French base course since its lessons are much shorter. I often get fed up with courses after a while but if I am ever going to produce Catalan, I must learn how to manipulate it. So we'll see how it goes with the active wave.

Reading is continuing apace. I put La Clau de Vidre (The Glass Key) aside for now. I'll finish it later. I am reading and enjoying the Belgian author Amélie Nothomb's Estupor i tremolors in parallel text with Spanish. I've read it once before a few years ago in Spanish. It's short, conversational and presents a few issues with unknown vocabulary, but it's nice to have the parallel text handy when the need arises. As you can see below, it presents few problems.

Català

El senyor Haneda era el superior del senyor Omochi, que era el superior del senyor Saito, que era el superior de la senyoreta Mori, que era la meva superior. I jo, jo no era la superior de ningú. Es podrien dir les coses d’una altra manera. Jo estava a les ordres de la senyoreta Mori, que estava a les ordres del senyor Saito, i així successivament, amb la precisió que, cap avall, les ordres podien saltar-se els esglaons jeràrquics. Així doncs, a la companyia Yumimoto, jo estava a les ordres de tothom.

El señor Haneda era el superior del señor Omochi, que era el superior del señor Saito, que era el superior de la señorita Mori, que era mi superiora. Y yo no era la superiora de nadie. Podríamos decirlo de otro modo. Yo estaba a las órdenes de la señorita Mori, que estaba a las órdenes del señor Saito, y así sucesivamente, con tal pre-cisión que, siguiendo el escalafón, las órdenes podían ir saltando los niveles jerárquicos. Así pues, en la compañía Yumimoto yo estaba a las órdenes de todo el mundo.

Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol
I started back reading Shemuel Alef Kapitulo 15 (1 Samuel Chapter 15) in Rashi. I wish I could be in Seattle on December 5. A French Sephardic author, François Azar, will be reading two tales in English and Djudeo-espanyol at the University of Washington Sephardic Center. He has two books in parallel text (English/Djudeo-espanyol). They are for sale on Amazon, but at $20 each, they're not worth the money for me in a cost-benefit analysis. I am far beyond that stage, and the books are only 60 pages long (really thirty when you consider the parallel text format. They would be a good choice for a learner though. I can spend the $40 more wisely on Ladino and get much more for my money. Hopefully, the university will put a video of the reading online later.

Spanish
I signed up for a writing course at the Escuela de Escritores that starts on December 5 and goes to January 16. It's taught by a published author and takes place, interactively, online. It cost 125 euros and is called "Escribir en Internet"

Internet ha abierto nuevas posibilidades para los escritores. Pero no todo vale. En el curso abordamos desde la práctica los géneros que más se prestan a su publicación en Internet, tanto de ficción como de no ficción, desde la reseña al microrrelato.

This should be fun and challenging. We'll see/Vamos ver!

Portuguese
Same thing, different days.

Haitian Creole
Read 1 Samyèl Chapit 15. Listened to the corresponding commentary on Atravè Labib and moving on to the next chapters. Spoke with a fellow passenger in the airport for five minutes.

Lesser Antilles French Creole/Kwéyòl
Spoke with a man I met at a job site for about ten minutes. He was from the island nation of Dominica (not to be confused with the Dominican Republic) and a bit taken aback at first hearing a blan (foreigner/ literally "white". Even a black person can be a "blan" if they are a foreigner) speaking Kwéyòl. It's always good to get in some speaking. With Kwéyòl, that's about all I can use it for. There is so little media to enjoy other than music. I do keep up with it in between speaking opportunities by reading the Potomitan site and twitter. Twitter is one of the easiest ways I can maintain all my languages without really trying.

Orevwa pou kounyea, mezanmi. Mèsi anpil pou li tou sa m te ekri isit la.

[jonm]

I am using both "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" and "Le Catalan Sans Peine". "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" cuts a learner no slack. I am on lesson 21 in both courses which is a review. The French based course has 7 dialog sentences and the Spanish based course has 15 dialog sentences. I find that the French base course is more focused on everyday speech and the Spanish-base course is about illustrating the differences in Catalan and Spanish grammar and vocabulary. Oddly enough, I think the two courses complement each other well and I get plenty of synergy from my reading and listening.

Very interesting to hear about your experiences with the two Assimil Catalan courses. I'm also doing both of them, and they really exemplify the trend toward shorter, lighter lessons. I know a lot of folks prefer the older Assimil courses that were more "packed," but I quite like both approaches. I like the richer content and continuing storyline of "El Catalán sin esfuerzo," but I find "Le Catalan" enjoyable too, and I like how it moves me right along, with invitingly easy lessons that nevertheless add up to steady progress. For me, the older course feels more like studying, albeit studying something rich and interesting, and the newer course is sort of breezier, more "sans peine."

I'm at the same point in "Le Catalan," just finished lesson 21. At first I alternated between the two courses, but now I've got "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" on hold (at lesson 12), and I'm considering doing all of one course and then all (or the rest, anyway) of the other. Or maybe I'll just get a bit of a lead in "Le Catalan." It's interesting, because I would say "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" packs more into each lesson and advances a bit faster, and it looks like it reaches a higher level by the end, but on the other hand it's not like it's a Perfectionnement courses that's designed to pick up at a higher level and continue from there. So doing them in tandem as you are definitely makes sense, and it does seem like they complement each other well. Will be very interested to hear how things go!

That's also interesting that lesson 21 of "El Catalán sin esfuerzo" recommends going back and doing the lessons from 15 on as an active wave. I haven't gotten that far, and I imagined the active wave would work the same way as in other Assimil courses. Looks like here it's a bit different. Curious how that will go too.

[PeterMollenburg]

Yes, interesting indeed to hear you are using two Assimil courses for Catalan, and even more so since one is French based.

I suspect one day that you’ll be so close to comprehending most French, that after adding another Romance language, people round these parts might be shocked to hear you’re actively learning French. After Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Lesser Antilles French Creole, Ladino and Catalan, I think you’ll find it tempting to fill in those gaps in your ‘for free French’.

Still, knowing you, you’re perhaps more likely to attempt Occitan. Were you to do so, I might be tempted myself. Maybe if you learn another ten Romance languages or dialects, you’ll get French entirely for free? How about Galician, Asturian, Porteñol, Corsican, Sardinian, Latin, Languedocien, Provençal, Gascon... and... Dutch! Yes, Dutch is a romance language, I swear. My grandparents were Dutch and in love I’m sure, so it is a romance language. And it’s spoken a tiny bit in the Carribean! Win-win, right?

All in all, some curious developments here iguanamon, I’ll be hovering about these parts to see how your multilingual Catalan venture (in particular the Assimil components) unfold. Best of luck!

[iguanamon]

... I like the richer content and continuing storyline of "El Catalán sin esfuerzo," but I find "Le Catalan" enjoyable too...

Yes, interesting indeed to hear you are using two Assimil courses for Catalan, and even more so since one is French based. I suspect one day that you’ll be so close to comprehending most French, that after adding another Romance language, people round these parts might be shocked to hear you’re actively learning French. After Spanish, Portuguese, Haitian Creole, Lesser Antilles French Creole, Ladino and Catalan, I think you’ll find it tempting to fill in those gaps in your ‘for free French’. Still, knowing you, you’re perhaps more likely to attempt Occitan. ...All in all, some curious developments here iguanamon, I’ll be hovering about these parts to see how your multilingual Catalan venture (in particular the Assimil components) unfold. Best of luck!

Thanks for stopping by PM and jonm. Your post is spot on, jonm. Ahhh, PM you know me too well. Occitan, in the form of Aranès, is alive and well in Catalunya in the Vall d'Aran. I had been following an Occitan newspaper on Twitter for a few years until they shut down a few months ago. Occitan is available on clozemaster. The language is very similar to Catalan. So similar that I don't want to risk learning it... at least not now. Assimil does have a course for Occitan and also a basic one (mostly vocabulary and phrases)here. Then there's another basic one online from the Campus Virtual de Institut Aranés- claims to go up to B2. Maybe on my next trip to Spain, I think I'd like to visit the Vall d'Aran, then, who knows!

The thing with similar languages is that "it's all about the details" and getting those details right and remembering where those details go and in which language. That's one reason why I haven't learned French. No matter how much I am exposed to the language, I won't learn it without actually studying it- no matter how much I get for free. Like studying any language, it's a big commitment to make and will come with it's own set of headaches... and also rewards. I won't say that I'll never learn it, just not yet. I'm probably more likely to go for Italian or Romanian

Assimil is different than any courses I've ever done. There are aspects I like about Assimil, and other aspects I don't. I don't like the way it teaches verb conjugations, which seem haphazard and too random to me. Fortunately, I can do that on my own without the course's help. I've been used to doing a lot of drills to incorporate patterns and Assimil's exercises are slim. You know my complaints about the audio being too slow and clear.

The "active wave" makes up for this lack of drills to some degree. "El catalán sin esfuerzo". At Lesson 21, the course told me to go back to lesson 15 and do an active wave, translating the Spanish to Catalan. This is helping me to internalize those patterns and I definitely see it as beneficial. Lesson 18 is about shopping for groceries- mostly meats. I am a vegetarian, but I still need to know the vocabulary for any occasion where I may be dining with someone or to know what to avoid or ask the waiter about it's possible inclusion. I'll be finished with this mini "active wave" very soon.

As a second language speaker of Spanish, and someone who has spent some time in Spain, I have few problems with the Spanish base and cultural aspects. Even so, there are certain cultural aspects peculiar to Spain that the course assumes that the learner will be familiar with and know without explanation- minor. This course is original to Spanish and most definitely not a translation of the French base course. I doubt that someone with an A2 or perhaps even a B1 level of Spanish could do the course effectively. Well, I suppose there's always Google Translate, but so much of it is based on showing the differences between how Catalan deals with vocabulary and grammar vs Spanish. In Spanish and Portuguese- it's ser and estar, por and para, that can trip up learners, it's the same in Catalan but there is variation that is quite different from Spanish and Portuguese. In addition to "per" and "per a", there are times where "a" and "al" seem to be preferred instead- [sarcasm]the joys of learning a similar language[/sarcasm]. As I've said, it's just details but those details are important in speaking and writing.

The French course "Le Catalan Sans Peine" is a significantly easier so far, but as I've said, it seems to be more beneficial in basic conversational language, which is exactly what I like about it.

After I finish these courses, I'll write a review. If there were a DLI course available and Pimsleur, I'd be using those instead. Still, I reckon it's what you get used to doing. At least Assimil is keeping up with the times and updating their courses every decade or so. I don't rely on any course to do all the heavy lifting for me.

One thing these courses are doing for me is helping me to tie together what I see in Catalan in the wild by reading and listening. I'd be better off if I were reading Genesis in the OT in parallel, but since I read the Bible in Haitian Creole (and use the corresponding chapter study and podcast) and Ladino, well, it would be just a bit too much for me. Besides, I really enjoy being able to read novels in the language. We'll see. For now I'm having quite a lot of fun doing what I'm doing. I could quit now and move on, but I just don't want to have a half finished language.

I'm now over halfway finished with "La Fórmula de la Felicitat" by Stefan Klein. I made a new parallel text for Chapters 5 and 6 of "La Clau de Vidre" by Dashiel Hammett, though I don't really need it, it does help to confirm guesses and unknown words that may come up. I continue to listen to the news and I watched a couple of episodes of Merlí. More on everything else later.

Orevwa pou kounyea, mezanmi. Mèsi anpil.

[SGP]

The thing with similar languages is that "it's all about the details" and getting those details right and remembering where those details go and in which language. That's one reason why I haven't learned French. No matter how much I am exposed to the language, I won't learn it without actually studying it- no matter how much I get for free. Like studying any language, it's a big commitment to make and will come with it's own set of headaches... and also rewards. I won't say that I'll never learn it, just not yet. I'm probably more likely to go for Italian or Romanian

As for French, I can relate. Took me a long, long time to be familiar enough with it. In the meantime, I even was sort-of-advancing more with Romanian, which I have been studying the least [out of ES FR IT PT RO]. But why was I still advancing? Because of ES (and IT/PT, too).

[Ogrim]

Great to see you making so much progress with Catalan. Keep up the good work!

As a second language speaker of Spanish, and someone who has spent some time in Spain, I have few problems with the Spanish base and cultural aspects. Even so, there are certain cultural aspects peculiar to Spain that the course assumes that the learner will be familiar with and know without explanation- minor.

That is interesting, would you care to expand and give some examples? When using different language bases for learning an language (like German for Arabic), I've never really thought about the fact that the base lanaguage's culture could influence the content, but I can see that Spanish to Catalan gives itself to this, as both languages exist side by side in the same country.