The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

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iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Fri Apr 29, 2022 9:30 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Gabriela, Clove and Cinammon, and Dona Flor and Her Two Husbands were read by me many years ago. Gabriela especially was one of my favorites. Unless my memory is confused, the idea that a man would fund his mistress's boy friend struck me as quite droll.

You are one up on me, MTF. I watched the movie some time ago. One of the stars of the film, José Wilker, ended up starring in the Rede Globo novela "Grabriela" too, as one of the big bads.



Dos Vidas, it pleases me to say, plays on my iPod ITVE app (but not, for whatever reason) from RTVE's regular web site ( :?: ).
MorkTheFiddle wrote:And you are so right to recommend TV series, even soaps, for improving listening comprehension. The first few minutes of the first episode of Dos Vidas promise an amusing show. I do confess to not understanding all the dialogue, but I'm going to give the first episode an honest try. We'll go from there.
Thanks for the reference.

Por nada, MTF. There are accurate subtitles available for the novela if you need a little extra help. It has its humor, sure, but there's plenty of heavy drama, especially in the African half of the show. By the way, the same is true for me, I can't watch it on the RTVE website but no problem with the app. I don't know how long it will be available, so, that's one of the reasons I'm rushing to finish it before it goes away for us. ¡Suerte!
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Herodotean » Sat Apr 30, 2022 4:18 am

I also appreciate the recommendation; I watched the first Dos Vidas episode tonight and found it more comprehensible without subtitles than the last Spanish series I watched (Presunto Culpable). And the story is interesting enough that I'm not watching it only for the Spanish practice. Since I've had too many frustrating experiences with RTVE's geoblocking, I signed up for RTVE Plus, which apparently is their $5/month streaming service for the Americas. It doesn't have subtitles at all, actually, for anything, but that might be the kick in the pants I need to stop using them as a crutch.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sun May 01, 2022 12:07 am

I'll write more about my adventures with the first episode of Dos Vidas in my log, but here I want to say how much I enjoyed it. The story does indeed turn darker in parts, there is a deft interweaving of two plots, there is an unfortunate (but fortuitius) fall in that episode which is nicely foreshadowed, something gets dropped in that episode, too, which the viewer was set up to KNOW it was going to happen, the characters are believable and interesting. In short a serious story with only the trappings of soap, reminding me of Manuel Puig's Bocadas pintadas, a soapy tale told as straight. Playing with genres like that enhances both sides of the telling. I'll finish by saying the downloaded version comes with Spanish subs, which helped me a lot.
Thanks again, Iguanamon.
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu May 12, 2022 4:16 pm

Catalan
I finished "Joc de testimonis". For the first time in a long time, I didn't really like the book. It was a slog. I wouldn't have liked it in English either. Now, I must pick a new Catalan book to read as I continue my journey. I'll come up with something.

Portuguese
My reading of "A descoberta da América pelos turcos" by Jorge Amado goes well. I am over halfway through the book now and am enjoying getting back into the wonderfully distinct "nordestino" dialect.

A few years ago, when I was learning Portuguese, I watched the novela "Gabriela"- the novela based on Jorge Amado's book. It takes place in the "Coroneis"(Colonels- Brazilian Cacao oligarchs) era in 1920's Northeast Brazil. "A descoberta da América pelos turcos" is set in roughly the same era. The dialeto nordestino has many unique words and phrases... some of which I remember... and some of which I don't remember, or, haven't seen before. There are a few "cheat-sheets" available online like this "dicionário de nordestinês".

An analogy can be made of the Nordestino dialect relationship to standard Brazilian Portuguese as to the relationship of US Southern and Southern Appalachian dialect to standard American English. Nordestinos often face discrimination when they migrate or visit the more developed Brazilian South and are mocked for their accent and usage.

Spanish
You're welcome, MTF. I hope you enjoy it. I now have only 100 episodes to go with my TVE novela "Dos Vidas".

So, 155 episodes are in the bag now. I think I can make it the rest of the way. Every week now that baseball season is underway in the Major Leagues I try to watch, or at least have on in the background, a game or two in Spanish. This past week, a rare event happened in the LA Angels game. The Angels rookie pitcher, Reid Detmers, a 22 year old rookie from the University of Louisville, threw a "no-hitter" in a complete game (a rarity itself).


Kreyòl Ayisyen
I'm following a new account on twitter that helps me to think in HC- SVS_MINDSET. The tweets are almost all in HC and they're like conversation prompts!

Kréyòl Lalwizian/Louisiana Creole
The first book published in Louisiana Creole (poetry and songs), Févi, is now for sale at a reasonable price of $13.95.
DJ Clifton wrote:Là, nou gin Févi, premiè liv ekri tutafè en Kréyol Louisiane-la. Mo kontan mo viv asé longtem wa ça. A tout zautè et à tou rédactè é artist-la-yé: Félicitation pi Mærsi!”
"Here we have Févi, the first book written completely in Louisiana Creole. I am happy I've lived long enough to see it. Congratulations and thank you to the authors, editors, and artists!
"

Centerary College of Louisiana wrote:Moun di yé va pli parlé kréyòl en Lalwizyàn. Kouri-vini va kouri, yé di, é janmé vini bæk. Yé di, fransé ap afonsé, kréyòl ap krévé. Èské çé vré? Dan Févi, vouzòt trouv lavwa-yé ki di: pa ditou! Yé di ça èk yê bèl poèm-yé, èk yê shanson-yé. Pou kèk moun, ça fé lontem yé t’apé parlé é ékri en kouri-vini; pou dòt, yé jish apé komensé aprenn. Pou shak moun dan liv-çila, lékritir çé in monñær pou fé yê zidé é yê paròl viv; é, konm ça, y’apé donné léspri a yê langaj.
It is often said that Louisiana Creole, Kouri-Vini, is in danger of dying out. Collected in Févi are the poems and songs of those who say their language is flourishing. Some contributors have spoken and written in Kouri-Vini for some time now; others are just starting on their learning journey. For each person in this book, writing breathes life into their ideas and words; and, with that, their language itself.

Mèsi pou li tou sa. M a wè nou pita, orevwa pou kounye a.
Last edited by iguanamon on Thu May 12, 2022 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby BeaP » Thu May 12, 2022 4:53 pm

iguanamon wrote:Now, I must pick a new Catalan book to read as I continue my journey. I'll come up with something.

I'm reading Jaume Cabré's Jo confesso at the moment in Spanish translation. Reviewers say that the language of the original is excellent, and I'm a bit sorry that I don't speak Catalan. It's huge, but it's a real page-turner, a bit similar to Zafón's novels. Maybe Barcelona has this dreamy-romantic effect on writers. It's about a boy who grows up in an antique shop and later becomes an antique dealer himself. Some objects in the store have really interesting stories and there's a special violin that several people have killed for. Of course there's also an important friendship and several love affairs. With the help of the objects' stories the novels spans a huge time frame from the Middle Ages to the narrator's present. On top of that, the boy is an avid language learner and often reflects upon languages and language learning.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu May 12, 2022 4:58 pm

Detmars had a lot of run support. Does that make it easier or harder to throw a no-hitter?
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Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson

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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu May 12, 2022 5:13 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Detmers had a lot of run support. Does that make it easier or harder to throw a no-hitter?

Perhaps in that the pitcher may be more relaxed. Still, being more relaxed can also lead to lapses in concentration. I don't know. I did a little research and found that, while over 99% of no-hitters are won by the pitcher's team, it is possible to lose a game and pitch a no-hitter. MLB.com says there have been "five players/teams to allow no hits over eight or nine innings and still lose". Baseball is just that kind of a quirky game... which is one of the reasons I like it so much. Below is a recent example involving the aforesaid Angels team.
MLB.com wrote:...Jered Weaver and Jose Arredondo -- June 28, 2008, Angels at Dodgers
Weaver was once one of the game's best pitchers, finishing in the top five in American League Cy Young Award voting in three straight years (2010-2012). But before all that came the most unusual start of his career.
Weaver had held the Dodgers hitless through four innings in a scoreless game, but then the fifth inning happened. Matt Kemp reached on an error from Weaver himself, who was unable to field a weakly-hit grounder back to him. With Blake DeWitt batting, Kemp stole second and advanced to third on a throwing error. DeWitt hit a sacrifice fly, and all of a sudden, the Dodgers were leading 1-0 despite not yet having a hit. Weaver got out of the inning without allowing another run, but his team was already down. The Angels did not have one of their own baserunners advance past second base the rest of the game and did not score in a 1-0 loss to their Interleague rival. Weaver's final line was six innings, one unearned run, three walks and six strikeouts. Arredondo came out of the bullpen with two scoreless, hitless innings and three strikeouts.
Said Weaver afterward when asked about his feat: "I'm sure you guys are going to eat this up a lot more than I am. I don't consider it a no-hitter for me." boxscore
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Thu May 12, 2022 6:21 pm

There were some tough outs in that opposing Dodger lineup. I forgot what a good pitcher Weaver was. Thanks for the details.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Tue May 17, 2022 7:33 pm

iguanamon wrote:Catalan
I finished "Joc de testimonis". For the first time in a long time, I didn't really like the book. It was a slog. I wouldn't have liked it in English either. Now, I must pick a new Catalan book to read as I continue my journey. I'll come up with something.
Maybe more in the vein of hard-boiled detectives like Ross MacDonald or Raymond Chandler, who fit with Hammett?
Some time has passed since I read any of them, but I seem to remember Hammett being a tad easier to read than MacDonald or Chandler.
MacDonald, real name Donald Millar, Canadian, not from the USA*, brought a unique vision, like Erich Maria Remarque, to American society.
There is a Wikipedia page in Catalá devoted to both him and Chandler:
Ross Macdonald
Raymond Chandler.

Just a suggestion. :)

*Was tempted to say, not an American, but that would be wrong. ;)
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu May 19, 2022 9:15 pm

MorkTheFiddle wrote:Maybe more in the vein of hard-boiled detectives like Ross MacDonald or Raymond Chandler, who fit with Hammett?...

Catalan
Thanks for the suggestion, MTF. I've already read Chandler in Catalan. I have two books in Catalan translation by Ross Macdonald: "L'enemic instantani" and "La mort t'assenyala". They're definitely on my list. I think I am going to with "Parany per a una noia" by Sébastien Japrisot, a French "noir" writer.
Blurb wrote:Que un hom sigui l'únic testimoni del propi crim no té res de particular: vol dir que compleix una de les condicions que el fan perfecte.
Ara: si les coses es compliquen fins a l'extrem que la víctima i l'assassí es confonen, hom comença a anguniejar-se seriosament. I quan, si això fos poc, la persona en qüestió resulta que és al mateix temps l'investigador del crim que va cometre i que sofrí, la cosa es posa roent.
Però, és possible?
"Parany pera una noia", la millor novel·la policíaca publicada l'any 1962 a França, us ho dirà.

The original title in French is "Piège pour Cendrillon". Sébastien Japrisot wikipedia en français
Japrisot is an interesting author:
Wikipedia wrote:Sébastien Japrisot (4 July 1931 – 4 March 2003) was a French author, screenwriter and film director. His pseudonym was an anagram of Jean-Baptiste Rossi, his real name. Renowned for subverting the rules of the crime genre, Japrisot broke down the established formulas "into their component pieces to re-combine them in original and paradoxical ways. Some critics argue that though Japrisot's work may lack the explicit experimental element present in the novels of some of his contemporaries, it shows influences of structuralist theories and the unorthodox techniques of the New Novelists.
He remains little known in the English-speaking world, though all his novels have been translated into English and all but one of them have been made into films.

So, "little known in the English-speaking world" and "unorthodox" intrigues me. Might as well discover him in Catalan, since I don't speak French and it would be a translation into English anyway. According to his French wikipedia page he translated J.D. Salinger into French- no mean feat!
BeaP wrote:I'm reading Jaume Cabré's Jo confesso at the moment in Spanish translation. Reviewers say that the language of the original is excellent, and I'm a bit sorry that I don't speak Catalan. It's huge, but it's a real page-turner, a bit similar to Zafón's novels. ...

Thanks for your suggestion too, BeaP. The key is "It's huge". Right now, short novels (150-200 pgs) with everyday conversational speech are what I want and need. I've made great progress with them. I have enough of the "La cua de palla" selection to fit that bill available. I will save "Jo confesso" for later.

Kréyòl Lalwizian (Louisiana Creole)
One of the accounts I follow on twitter in Kréyòl Lalwizian is "@DanielleCreole. He tweets in the language from time to time. Louisiana Creole is like the other Caribbean Creoles. It springs from the same era of French colonization and slavery in the Caribbean. While I cannot speak it, I can certainly read it without too much effort
@DanielleCreole wrote:Dimansh pasé mo té résté a mô lamézon épi mô zami té mandé mwin in vidéo a Plas Kongo (Congo Square) ak moun de Matinik ap jwé tambou! Mo toujou t'olé jwé ak moun de Matinik é Gwadlpoup mé mo té manké yé!!! Jamé enko! Dimansh ke vini mo va dèt laba a Plas Kongo!

Here's my attempt at a translation: "Last Sunday I stayed home and then my friend sent me a video at Congo Square (a famous musical gathering spot for African-American slaves and descendants in New Orleans) with folks from Martinique playing drums! I always wanted to play with people from Martinique and Guadeloupe but I missed them!!! Never again! Next coming Sunday I'm going to be down there at Congo Square!"

With my knowledge of two Caribbean Creoles, It isn't too difficult to figure out. The words "t'olé" and "dèt" gave me some momentary difficulty. Both are verbs. With the context and my knowledge of the other French-based Creoles, "olé" is cognate to French "vouler"; Haitian Creole "vle"; and St Lucian Creole "vlé". The "t" in "t'olé" is a contraction of the Creole past marker "te"... which comes from FR: "était". The word "dèt" comes from French "d'etre", which doesn't have a cognate in either HC or LAFC, but the conjugation "ye" is common to all three languages. "Mo" is cognate to "Mwen"/"M" in the other Creoles. "Yé" is cognate with Haitian "yo"- plural marker and "them/they". As I've said before, if you speak French, read the text as if it were French and it may become clearer to you. Louisiana Creole has had more mixing with both Standard French and Cajun French over the centuries.

Here's Congo Square drumming in New Orleans


Here's what drumming sounds like in Martinique


Spanish
I'm on episode 164 of 255 of "Dos Vidas" now. In six more episodes I'll be two thirds of the way in. After so many episodes, the characters are becoming quite familiar to me. Still, all good things must come to an end and it will also be good to move on to something else. Pre-internet, I would've given anything to have a series in Spanish to watch. When satellite TV came out, I was finally able to watch Spanish-language TV and it did wonders for my Spanish. Short of actually living in a country, it's a pretty good way to get lots of immersion, develop listening skills and pick up new vocabulary and expressions.

I never cease to be amazed that there are learners who refuse to do something like this with audio/video to improve their skills. All one needs is an internet connection and time, but, people seem to be impatient... or, they think that courses, reading and/or technological fixes, or some combination will carry them through. There's no real substitute for listening. A series is better in my experience because of a) visual clues; b) limited set of voices to become accustomed to; c) situations, vocabulary repeat.

Some of the reluctance to engage with a series may be due to fear. Fear of not being able to deal with unknown words/phrases. Fear of not understanding everything immediately. Language-learning and impatience are a bad mix. Add in "perfectionism" and it becomes a fatal combination. Some people like to be above anything so pedestrian and crude as television. My response to this is to let go of preconceptions. There's nothing to be afraid of once a learner has reached an intermediate level and learned the basics with a good foundation.

When I was learning Portuguese and Haitian Creole, my notebook got a workout for sure. Listening was mind-numbingly hard. I wanted to quit. I didn't. I stuck with it. It became easier over time. Now I watch and listen because I enjoy it. It helps me maintain my skills and slowly improve them. Fear of the unknown often holds us back from doing things that we might really enjoy if we'd only just give it a real chance. We may not like it at first because it's hard. One must accept that the process takes time, however long it may take, perhaps months or (sometimes) even years. That's no reason not to try and give it a fair shot. The one sure way not to learn a language is to take the easy way out and quit.

There are all kinds of ways to help yourself with training listening to series:
Online synopses/episode recaps/summaries- these can help a learner to be prepared for what is going on.

Forum/Comments/Blog- big, popular, international series like "The Walking Dead"/"Game of Thrones" etc. will have all kinds of online chapter summaries; recaps; reviews; speculation; fandoms available to consult. Popular soap operas will have this available as not everyone can watch every day and they may want to catch up with what's been going on.

Subtitles- especially L2 subtitles (especially accurate ones) can be used in several ways to aid listening. They can be used to train listening in the beginning as a crutch. They can be utilized as a check against comprehension by going back to a portion of the video to check. They can be paused to look up unknown words/phrases. Of course, the goal is to ween yourself off of them.

Twitter/Facebook/Social Media- follow the show/actors/fans on social media. This can provide insights and even links to other people and material in which you may be interested.

Newspaper/Magazine articles- These can include interviews with the writers/producers/actors, or descriptions of the series and its impact.

Books/Articles/Context- I'm watching a show that partly takes place in the former Spanish colony of Equatorial Guinea. How many people even know that the Spanish had a colony in West Africa? It helps to know something about the history of the place. I read a book years ago about the place post-independence which provided historical context and also have read ecuatoguineano poetry and tales. The wikipedia articles about Equatorial Guinea in Spanish also provide good context.

One can't utilize all these materials if their level in the language isn't at an intermediate level... unless it's a dubbed series in L1. For original L2 series, being able to search with L2 key words is key. While some series will have more supplementary online aids than others, there will usually be something

So, a learner doesn't have to go into something like I'm doing blind. There is certainly help available out there.

Being able to speak, read, listen and engage with a second language expands my soul, my horizons. It makes "the other" not strange, but something either familiar or at least understandable/relatable. It is worth doing, not as an obsession, but as a means for self-improvement and self-satisfaction. When we challenge ourselves physically and mentally we become stronger. It is amazing what we can achieve.

Mèsi pou li tou sa. M a wè nou pita. Orevwa pou semèn sa a.
Last edited by iguanamon on Fri May 20, 2022 11:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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