A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:50 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:Five weeks Dutch immersion in Utrecht sounds delicious. Such a delightful city! I don’t have that kind of free time these days, but I look forward to lots of daydreaming based on this thread. (The Netherlands is one of my absolute favorite places.)

Yeah if I had the time, money, and was an L1 German speaker I would totally do it.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:35 pm

I am taking a short break from transcribing but it looks like I am probably going to take the Goethe B2 exam in June because my university offers it, I will get the (likely passing) results and certificate back before I apply for a Fulbright, and it will look good for Fulbright and other scholarship applications. I found this out about an hour ago when talking to one of the professors in the German dept. I think I have a B2 prep book on my iPad (that I bought legally even!) so that will get folded into my schedule of doom along with more focused vocab work.

I also was killing some time at Powell's yesterday and found the second book of three in the Hebrew textbook series that I like. I don't need it, but it was something like $7.50 used and it appears to be out of print, at least when looking at the publisher's website. I'll probably go back and get it today.

I have Dutch stuff to talk about as well but I need to get back to transcribing (German) so I will leave that for this evening or tomorrow (in short, I did hilariously well on the Dialang grammar test).
2 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

Lawyer&Mom
Blue Belt
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:08 am
Languages: English (N), German (B2), French (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7786
x 3785

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:28 pm

aokoye wrote:
Lawyer&Mom wrote:Five weeks Dutch immersion in Utrecht sounds delicious. Such a delightful city! I don’t have that kind of free time these days, but I look forward to lots of daydreaming based on this thread. (The Netherlands is one of my absolute favorite places.)

Yeah if I had the time, money, and was an L1 German speaker I would totally do it.


Yeah, in my daydream they are so impressed by my near native proficiency they let me in anyway. This is clearly a fantasy!

I’m curious to hear about your B2 preparations. I think B2 is about my level, but I would be hard pressed to actually pass the test. (If it was just reading and listening, I’d be set!)
0 x
Grammaire progressive du français -
niveau debutant
: 60 / 60

Grammaire progressive du francais -
intermédiaire
: 25 / 52

Pimsleur French 1-5
: 3 / 5

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:13 pm

Last week was punctuated (at least in terms of language) with a package from Lawyer&Mom! She sent me three books with a German base for studying Dutch. Kontrastsprache Niederländisch, Niederländisch Wort für Wort, and Oh dieses Niederländisch. I had actually thumbed through the first one in Berlin at some point - it looks like an interesting book. The first third focuses on what they're calling receptive competence, the second third on active competence, and the final section is on translation competence. What's interesting here is that according to the introduction it appears that by receptive they mean reading (as opposed to listening), active competence means having a good understanding of the morphology and syntax of Dutch and being able to read dialogues, and translation competence means the ability to read more complex texts.

Thumbing through the sections here's what I'm gleaning:
Section 1 - an fairly thorough introduction to Dutch grammar, strong preference on comparing Dutch and German (and to a lesser extent English), and an introduction to Dutch and Belgian culture (with Dutch culture being more prominent). The grammar covered are articles, gender, diminutives, case (hah), pronouns of all types, verbs in quite a lot of detail (including using the passive), pronominal adverbs, adjectives, adverbs, conditional sentences, and subjunctive. You also learn numbers and how to compare things.

Section 2 - dialogues and longer texts. Each chapter begins with an introduction text or dialogue which is then followed later in the chapter with a much lengthier dialogue or text. Save for the first chapter in this section, these are all pretty lengthy. It's not your average language textbook dialogue. There also appears to be a much stronger emphasis on vocabulary than the first section. Most of the exercises involve being able to put the correct word (noun, adj, or adv) into a text which is either a summary or a dialogue.

Section 3 - These are all longer texts and most are news stories (or sections of them) from 2001. There are some reading comprehension exercises and they pick out thematic vocabulary, but mostly this is just a wall of articles.

What is true of all of the sections is that the vast majority of the text is in Dutch. The grammar explanations are all in German, but otherwise it's mainly Dutch. By chapter 2 it has you reading page long explanations in Dutch without any translation. There's also almost no audio. Speaking is seriously not emphasized (which makes the inclusion of dialogues very odd to me). There are mp3s on the publisher's website for each of the longer texts in the first section but, remember, these are not dialogues.

All and all this seems like it'll be a really interesting book especially given my background in linguistics and German. I know a number of people who I suspect would find this book really interesting.
3 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:21 am

In non-textbook news - things have been a bit crazy in terms of busyness. School mainly but also I know how for medical appointments a week - two therapy appointments and two physical therapy appointments. Add that on to three, soon to be four, choir related rehearsals a week and weekly meetings for the research group I'm in. It's just a lot. On top of that, I also bike three days a week for fitness and recreation. And to think, this was supposed to be my easy term.

I did end up signing up for the A2 online Dutch course that is offered by the University of Groningen though (one more commitment...)! That starts April 26th and I have no idea how it really works so it'll be interesting. From what I've heard they are pretty good and I suspect their goal is actually to make sure people are eventually able to learn enough Dutch to study in Dutch speaking program. Their language center, which runs the online courses, is also quite good from what I've heard from someone a. has taken classes through it and b. has and does work in applied linguistics departments in the US and the Netherlands. While I suspect the course will be fairly easy for me given my German background, I need structure and that is not something I can easily create for myself at the moment. It will also look good on my Fulbright application. There's a specific section asking about what you're doing to improve your language skills if you are going to a country that speaks a less commonly taught language in the US. In some cases having X level of proficiency in that language (regards if it is or isn't a commonly taught language) is required and in others, mine include, it isn't.

In terms of German, I'm debating on whether or not I'm going to take the B2 test. I need to email one of the professors about it. It turns out I don't need related to my German knowledge for my application (they actually specifically said not to get a language assessments for languages that you won't need for your project). It could be a useful certificate to have though - we'll have to see.

Hebrew: nothing is happening. I didn't end up getting the textbook which is far from the end of the world and the more responsible decision.

Goals for the rest of this week: Dutch vocabulary and reading through the second chapter of Kontrastsprache Niederländisch.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

Lawyer&Mom
Blue Belt
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:08 am
Languages: English (N), German (B2), French (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7786
x 3785

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:47 am

Kontrastsprache Niederländisch seems to have an fairly academic audience, at least in contrast to the other two books. The lack of focus on spoken Dutch? They know everyone will be speaking English.

I’m joking, but I’m not. I did the linguistic summer school in Leiden several years ago. Everyone at the university spoke English constantly. I was used to a German university where you could easily switch to English if you needed to, but at a Dutch university English was practically the default. There were students and professors from around the EU at the summer school and no one expected anyone to speak Dutch. I know a summer school is a special situation, but I was still surprised by the pervasiveness of English at the university. And the bars. And the Starbucks. And the hot dog stand at the train station....
4 x
Grammaire progressive du français -
niveau debutant
: 60 / 60

Grammaire progressive du francais -
intermédiaire
: 25 / 52

Pimsleur French 1-5
: 3 / 5

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:14 am

Yeah the pervasiveness of English in the Netherlands, especially in academia, is really intense. I have a lot of thoughts about it and the fact that I will hopefully be using it to my advantage, but it's intense (I don't feel particularly good about it). I know two people from the US who have taught at the University of Groningen (in different departments) and neither of them really learned a whole lot of Dutch. One of them just flat out had no time (three young kids, one of whom was born there, a full time job, other academic commitments, etc) and the other learned some Dutch but I can't imagine she ever got above B1. Neither of them needed it and that was despite them being fairly well socially integrated into the city.

I was warned by one of the professors who works at the University of Groningen that the only way I would really be able to speak a lot of Dutch with my peers if I were to go there for grad school (their Linguistics research masters is my top pick) is if I a. come in knowing some Dutch and b. make a pact with them that we will speak to each other in Dutch.

Thank you again though for the books! I meant to message you last week but things have been really intense in my world especially involving time (I have a bunch of emails I need to write as well). I am really excited about the books, especially Kontrastsprache Niederländisch.
3 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:02 am

Sixth chapter in Nederlands in gang: More or less done! I need to keep working on some of the vocabulary but that's an ongoing thing. I think it will likely just be a matter of rereading the dialogue and longer text. I've also learned all of the less than familiar words from the 7th chapter via Quizlet. I am debating on whether or not to pay for Quizlet plus so I can make use of their SRS service but I don't know. The main perk of this is that all of the word lists are already there and thus I wouldn't have to go about putting them into a different flash card app. On the other hand, I already pay for Learn with Oliver (which I really like) AND they have native spoken audio (if you have the paid version) which is a huge plus for me with Dutch. I suspect it will be an issue of how much time putting things into LWO will take.

The sixth chapter of Nederlands in gang is about restaurants and the writing sections asks you to write a text about going to a restaurant or cafe. Conveniently I just happened to go with a friend of mine to a Japanese restaurant last week. This is what I wrote:

On donderdag aten Iris en ik in een Japans restaurant. Iris bestelde edamame en gyoza. Ik bestelde ramen. De serveerster bracht Iris de edamame eerst en daarna bracht ze de andere gerechten. Iris vond de gyoza erg lekker en ik vond de ramen ook lekker. Daarna bestelden we toetje. Ik bestelde matcha tiramisu. Iris bestelde tomaat-yuzu sorbet. Ik hield van de tiramisu maar de sorbet war interessant. De kleur war wit in tegenstelling tot rood. Ik vond het niet zo lekker maar Iris vond het lekker.

Yes - the sorbet was tomato yuzu. It was very odd. I haven't gone over simple past yet so I first wrote it in present tense and then rewrote it while looking up the verbs on Verbix. Of course I just looked ahead in the book and chapter 9 (which my class is starting with) is past perfect and 10 is simple past.

My goal for tonight through Thursday is fairly obvious - learn the words from chapters 7 and 8.
4 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:18 pm

I'm typing this on my phone so expect typos.

As much as I don't typically enjoy reading ebooks, I really like that my Dutch textbook for this course is available in ebook format. Part of that is because it allowed me to save on the cost and time that it takes to ship a textbook from western Europe to the US. The other reason is that the ebook platform is actually rather good. I do need to figure out if there is a way to download a PDF of it to my computer's hard drive for backup purposes, but I'm able to easily read the book on my computer, iPad, and phone (which is a Samsung). The software attempts to sync the page number I'm on (and works most of the time) and it's very clean and unobtrusive.

It's nice to be able to easily read a book wherever I am. The one thing is that it makes checking my answers a major pain. If I can figure out how to download a PDF I'm just going to print the answer key. Apparently the phone version downloads it as a PDF so i suspect I'll try to get it that way.

The other nice thing is that the pages have links to the audio files and exercises that are on the publisher's website. That makes listening to the dialogues really easy as I always have a browser window open on my computer. You can download all of the mp3s in one go which I need to do, but I like the ease of clicking on a link.
0 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
aokoye
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1818
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), French (Intermediate), Japanese (N4), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=19262
x 3310
Contact:

Re: A Journey through Dutch and German (and Hebrew?)

Postby aokoye » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:31 am

The online Dutch course has officially begun! From what I can tell it should be interesting. Essentially it's autodidactic learning with the structure of a class. You do a chapter a week and are expected to learn the vocabulary and do essentially of of the exercises that don't rely on being in a class. Then you have group sessions every other week (I think - I need to reread the syllabus, the first one starts the second week), have a written assignment due each week, and a spoken assignment due each week. These assignments are both graded. The course is eight weeks in length which means you are expected to complete one to two chapters a week. In addition there are writing and speaking exercises that aren't graded by the teachers but that they apparently frequently give feedback on.

I suspect I will like this course because it is exactly what I need given that Dutch isn't taught most places in the US. I will have the freedom to learn things on my own but there is also some sort of imposed structure. Again, it is also pretty important to essentially all of the scholarships/fellowships/grants that I'm applying to that I have shown that I have taken the initiative to study Dutch. Taking this course will do that a lot more successfully than paying for lessons on iTalki (for better or worse). It's also not slow, I suspect this will move much faster than any non-intensive course I would take in the US given that we going from A1-A2 in eight weeks (technically you have access to the course for 10). The courses above A2 are also eight weeks and cover half of the books' material but the books are from A2-B1 and B1-B2 as opposed to A0-A2. Again, either way, it is faster than any course I could take in the US that isn't intensive. I suspect what I will end up doing is studying on my own all summer (they don't have online courses in the summer) while paying for a teacher on iTalki and then skip either one or two courses.

Vocab wise, I've decided on using Learn with Oliver for the time being. I like it, it does't take massive amounts of time to enter in the vocabulary, and there's audio. I also used it all of last Summer when I was taking my German class and it was beyond helpful. In this case it will likely be more helpful in terms of there being spoken audio given how much Dutch phonology is throwing me for a loop. Essentially I want to pronounce everything as if it's German.

Speaking of German, now I'm off to my German speaking group!
2 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Sizen and 2 guests