PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

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Arnaud
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Arnaud » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:25 am

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:21 pm

Arnaud wrote:I'll just point two little problems I hear in your prononciation based on the 2 recordings you've posted.
- Sometimes you don't pronounce the R: L109: 1'.22'' and 1'50'': "o(r)ganisé des pots", "submergé pa(r) sa matinée".
- You pronounce or add a "e" muet at the end of the words: As I'm parisian and generally don't pronounce them, I can hear them immediatly as a deviation from the standard accent. You probably can't hear them, but I hear them clearly:
L109: 0,25'': Jean-Micheleu, 1,15'': chefe d'équipe (there are other occurrences in the two recordings)
There are other minors problems (and a certain rigidity in your prosody, the natives speakers are linking the words between them massively), but on the whole it's very good, everyday I hear people living and working in France who don't bother to have such a good accent (or even don't bother to speak french at all :roll: )


Ah, yes! The French native response I was hoping for. I will defintely look into these errors and aim to eradicate them. Thanks so much Arnaud!
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Mohave
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Mohave » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:00 pm

PM - Thanks so much for taking the time to describe how you have worked on your pronounciation - especially since you had to write all that twice!! :D It certainly is making me think about my approach on how I have done things regarding my accent. It was also good to see you obtained such a great accent through old-fashioned roll-up your sleeves work (and not just complete natural ability). I have not worked with IPA at all - and your post is making me re-consider that. Also, for FIA, I have the textbooks and have watched the videos on-line at Lerner.org, but have not used the workbooks or audio files - so I have not done the type of detail work you noted. So more food for thought!

I have started working with the FSI phonology course, and of course Pimsleur. I am trying to take more care lately to make sure my accent/song/rhythm is good. Also, as I mentioned a little bit ago in my log, my listening skills have seen a jump of late - which is helping me hear better when it is off. Frankly, I speak French like a typical anglophone, so thanks again for sharing your approach!

Your new study plan is awesome! Its awesome that you are starting to incorporate medical technology into your rotation! How far you have come along!

Thanks again and great job Monsieur PM!
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Arnaud
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Arnaud » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:40 pm

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Meyers
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Meyers » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:44 am

Hey PM,

I've been catching up on your log here, since it seems that this site is the future. Well done on your accent, my girlfriend had a listen and was very impressed (she just mentioned the 'ou' sounds didn't sound perfect). I hope to achieve something similar after a bit of blood, sweat and tears :)

Did you end up signing up for Netflix?

- Meyers
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:53 am

Mohave wrote:PM - Thanks so much for taking the time to describe how you have worked on your pronounciation - especially since you had to write all that twice!! :D It certainly is making me think about my approach on how I have done things regarding my accent. It was also good to see you obtained such a great accent through old-fashioned roll-up your sleeves work (and not just complete natural ability). I have not worked with IPA at all - and your post is making me re-consider that. Also, for FIA, I have the textbooks and have watched the videos on-line at Lerner.org, but have not used the workbooks or audio files - so I have not done the type of detail work you noted. So more food for thought!

I have started working with the FSI phonology course, and of course Pimsleur. I am trying to take more care lately to make sure my accent/song/rhythm is good. Also, as I mentioned a little bit ago in my log, my listening skills have seen a jump of late - which is helping me hear better when it is off. Frankly, I speak French like a typical anglophone, so thanks again for sharing your approach!

Your new study plan is awesome! Its awesome that you are starting to incorporate medical technology into your rotation! How far you have come along!

Thanks again and great job Monsieur PM!


You're most welcome Mohave,

By sharing my methods and recordings it is also helping me consider whether what I'm doing is working well. It seems it is, as I've had overwhelmingly positive replies with still some room for improvement. I don't think it matters at all which course you follow in terms of phonetics/pronunciation/mouth position. Of course it needs to be decent, but provided all the details are there, the source shouldn't matter. In summary I think these are the main points:

1 Learn how to produce the sounds of the language (French here).
I'd recommend using the phonetics as a guide for your developed sounds that match with audio you hear and repeat from native speakers (courses are best I think here due to intent/slow focus) A decent source is needed to explain (perhaps diagrams included) how to articulate those sounds in relation to the anatomy of the mouth. This learning process should be ongoing with an aim to get the majority of it under your belt fairly early as correcting issues is trickier but still very much possible in my opinion. I also think that you need to learn to crawl before you walk is a good statement. Producing sounds in slow motion, words with deliberately slower enunciated syllables focusing on exactly how you produce the sound you are working on are good practise. If you gradually perfect a sound as best you can and work on the other sounds, until you're ready to speed up your speech but still applying what you've learned, I think it works well. If you're correcting later on in your learning journey, then this can be applied to perhaps one sound at a time. Once you 'learn' that sound, be strict on its production- don't revert to old habits or be lazy with it (step 2).

2 (semi-)fixing that detail you've learned-
in terms of reproducing the sounds/phonetics with regularity always remaining aware of how you produce those sounds you've learned in step 1.

3 Tweaking/improving (going back to fix 'errors')... speaks for itself I guess. Step 2 is 'semi-fixing' of sounds as you always need to remain open to improvement. Don't get fixated on having the sound right without ever needing/accepting your accent as fixed. I think if you live in a French speaking environment your sound production can be 'allowed' to become much more automatic and fixed as you really train your mind to settle in the language and hear it so much and speak it so much it probably will settle into a 'fixed' state of sorts.

These are my theories of course, but to someone else it might seem a little like a whole lot of BS. Anyway, fry on, and keep working Mohave, it's very positive that you ask for input on accent. Don't be overwhelmed if you feel that task is huge, just pick a sound and work on it, or just try to match your recordings more effectively. Don't be hard on yourself. Enjoy the journey!
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Expugnator
Black Belt - 1st Dan
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Languages: Native Brazilian Portuguese#advanced fluency English, French, Papiamento#basic fluency Italian, Norwegian#intermediate Spanish, German, Georgian and Chinese (Mandarin)#basic Russian, Estonian, Greek (Modern)#just started Indonesian, Hebrew (Modern), Guarani
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=9931
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Expugnator » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:00 pm

Since this has become the spot for evaluating French accents, I hope PM doesn't mind my sharing of my own record (also posted at my log)>

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QlzuQsHP4D
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Corrections welcome for any language.

Arnaud
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Languages: French (N), Russian (int)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=1524
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby Arnaud » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:20 pm

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:07 pm

rlnv wrote:Have you been hiding the usage of D'accord La Prononciation Du Français International Acquisition et Perfectionnemnet from us?


Admittedly I wasn't actually sure what this was. Although I understood your positive comment of course.....


Arnaud wrote:Out of curiosity I've listened to a few lessons (the audio is available for free), and it's rather good and well explained concerning the position of the tongue, lips, mouth, etc, and the exercices are rather well thought and progressive.
The famous R is explained in the lesson 6, btw. :arrow: aga, ara, aga, ara, come on guys :mrgreen:


.....and now I know! Thanks Arnaud. This is actually quite good, so I think I'll use this at some point every so often to work on my French accent.

My weak/absent French R is making a comeback. ie becoming stronger again. I just need to draw on my guttural Dutch g's or 'ch'. I don't find it much of an issue, I honestly thought some of the French speakers (in Assimil as well) were doing as I was and not focusing too strongly (sometimes absent as a result) on their R's. Perhaps that's simply bad practise.

My unstressed (added) 'e' /ə/ is hopefully disappearing (with deliberate attention). I might add I've been listening to/singing some French kids songs with my daughter and I've noticed a lot of very obvious /ə/'s on the ends of words when singing (the recordings). I'm certain this is simply styllistic prose for rhythm unique to some music. I don't at all consider this 'normal Parisian' spoken French, just an interesting observation.

PM for realz
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's TAC 2015 crazy? French course mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:50 am

Meyers wrote:Hey PM,

I've been catching up on your log here, since it seems that this site is the future. Well done on your accent, my girlfriend had a listen and was very impressed (she just mentioned the 'ou' sounds didn't sound perfect). I hope to achieve something similar after a bit of blood, sweat and tears :)

Did you end up signing up for Netflix?

- Meyers


Thanks Meyers,

I really appreciate the feedback, thank you. Thanks to your girlfriend as well for having a listen. Did she mention anything in particular that sounded a little off for the 'ou' sounds? I hope your French practise days with your gf going well!

PM

Edit: re Netflix. I didn't sign up actually. It's just another 'option' up my sleeve for now. I figured I had enough access to French TV content for now. However, my in-laws signed up for Netflix as a promotion with their new hi-tech TV they bought and offered us to use it as well as they can use it across 3 chosen devices. Thus we have access to Australian Netflix, but as it's not our account and it's being 'given' as a gift so to speak as the '3rd device', so I don't really think I should fiddle with their account or get them into trouble by using a VPN (it might flag their account somehow).But I have been able to watch a couple of things with French subtitles, but French subtitles seem rare on the Australian Netflix. Whether we'll go with our own account down the track remains to be seen. It kinda quietly pisses me off that Netflix is making such huge in-roads globally. Just another sign of Americanisation (nothing against American people, I just feel like the American culture is being 'pushed' on the global population under the guise of 'cool entertainment'). That I believe is not an everyday American person's doing, but rather a flaw inherent with the hungry capitalist beast to take their market offshore more and more.
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