PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16235
x 5709

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat May 18, 2019 8:34 pm

StringerBell wrote:I will happily delete this post upon request since this isn't my log.

I can understand the value and importance of not going off topic on threads started by others or on other people's logs. I, personally, try to avoid posting anything that doesn't relate to language learning on my own log, and I try to not derail others' threads.

However, I think that people should be free to write what they want in their own logs. If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log. It is very worrying to me that nowadays more and more frequently people seem to forgo the power to look/walk away and instead complain that since they don't like something, it shouldn't be allowed. This is a slippery slope that erodes freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have to like or agree with what a person says. As long as they aren't lying or inciting violence, or promoting the suppression of other people's rights, they have the right to say it, and everyone else has the right to decide whether they want to listen.


Well said. Thank you StringerBell :)
0 x

User avatar
Adrianslont
Blue Belt
Posts: 770
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:39 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), Learning Indonesian and French
x 1652

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Adrianslont » Sun May 19, 2019 12:58 am

StringerBell wrote:I will happily delete this post upon request since this isn't my log.

I can understand the value and importance of not going off topic on threads started by others or on other people's logs. I, personally, try to avoid posting anything that doesn't relate to language learning on my own log, and I try to not derail others' threads.

However, I think that people should be free to write what they want in their own logs. If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log. It is very worrying to me that nowadays more and more frequently people seem to forgo the power to look/walk away and instead complain that since they don't like something, it shouldn't be allowed. This is a slippery slope that erodes freedom. Freedom of speech doesn't mean that you have to like or agree with what a person says. As long as they aren't lying or inciting violence, or promoting the suppression of other people's rights, they have the right to say it, and everyone else has the right to decide whether they want to listen.

StingerBell, While I basically agree with you about freedom of speech I am 99.9% (i am incapable of 100% satisfaction) happy with the way this forum is run and the limitations it sets out for two reasons.

Firstly, it’s a language learning forum - I enjoy a place on the net where I don’t have to sort through conspiracy theories, people promoting their commercial products, people arguing about politics and religious debate. There are plenty of other places on the net for people to go to if they want that. I go to them sometimes myself. Here I enjoy language learning stuff.

Secondly, this forum is community but it does have “owners”. It is a private entity as well as a community. The owners have to make sure that defamation and other laws are not breached - they are actually responsible/liable for what is on this forum. The owners are the mods/admins (I’m not sure what the difference is, if any) who pay the hosting costs, fix the technical problems and give lots of their time to keep this forum afloat, protect us from spam and keep it functioning as a civilised community. I like that and if I didn’t, I am free to walk or look away as we all are.
11 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3593
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish+ (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German+, Italian+
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian, Czech; Romanian+, Galician; Danish, Swedish
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Chaucer's English
+ means exploring the dialects/variants
x 4902
Contact:

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Serpent » Sun May 19, 2019 1:15 am

First of all, freedom of speech is not a right to be offered a platform.

And well, we already give more leeway in the logs than in other threads. The long-term members also tend to get a bit more leeway than someone who's never posted about language learning but suddenly wants to join a political discussion.
StringerBell wrote: If people don't agree with it, they are not compelled to continue reading that log
By this logic it's not necessary to moderate anything, because people can simply choose not to read what they don't like. But that's not how it works. there have definitely been some ugly moments in logs too. And this may cause hard feelings that carry over to regular threads.

Also, just reminding that the moderation policy should be discussed in private messages.
The owners are the mods/admins (I’m not sure what the difference is, if any) who pay the hosting costs, fix the technical problems
The admins are the ones who have access to all features of the forum software (settings, user profiles etc). They also moderate, ie approve posts from newbies, delete spam or inflammatory comments, ban users. Moderators do the things I listed but we can't fix any technical problems. We can only fix individual posts, like incorrect tag use.
9 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1818

Postby Morgana » Sun May 19, 2019 1:49 am

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
9 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 5315
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 13496
Contact:

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Sun May 19, 2019 1:57 pm

Let's all just move on please. There are about 7000 languages in the world and they aren't going to learn themselves.
15 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16235
x 5709

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 24, 2019 1:01 pm

It seems I'm going around in circles again. What follows is not criticism, nor depression, but is analysis, perhaps somewhat comical, as I think being humble about one's flaws is useful if one is to analyse oneself honestly... here goes... No need to provide solutions, but any response is of course welcome if you feel you want to, but as I've tried to 'save' many with the 'truth', I doubt there's any saving me from my crazy circles, they just are ;) Could I be the matrix? :?

I wish I had 12 hours a day to study languages.

Recently I posted all these fancy ideas (and fancy=quite good) about how to achieve my goal of C1/C2 in November in this thread https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5037&start=160 and while I think it's not a lost cause I can already see myself changing my mind.

I also fell into the trap of ranting again (see removed posts if you hadn't noticed, and frankly who'd care, it's a bit much, is it not?) and thought I was ranting for good reason (maybe I was?), whatever.

So here I am again going around in circles, my pattern of behaviour is predictable:

I decide to do French only to pass Dalf C1/C2, I devise awesome plans and must follow through by X date of DALF exam
Some awesome people provide awesome advice, which I can never be thankful enough for, again, thanks guys
I am then absolutely (and I intend to, honestly) committed to sticking to it... but...
...I don't

I then decide it's time to learn Dutch, or maybe change my routine
I do that... but...
I don't really commit to that so well either, or I do then....
I change my mind again because I'm not doing enough French, or not enough courses, or not enough reading, or not enough listening.... there's not enough time!

Then I rant, get into all kinds of knotty situations and attempt to back out of them while waving the flag of a freedom fighter who hides behind the same fears, rules and regulations as the majority of other people and although I want to comply to the rules of the forum, I also don't want to... and although I honestly respect the vast majority of people here (including moderators), I still wind up offending people and/ or pissing people off.

I back out of the rant, look ridiculous, which I don't mind too much, as being humble as I mentioned (and not egocentric) I feel is extremely valuable in coming to terms with one's imperfections and accepting one's reality as opposed to a bullshit ego-painted image of what I think I am, in which I discard the negative properties. No best have an honest picture of oneself. So yeah, I rant...

So then I come up with a new plan... declare I won't make any more declarations, and in doing so have just made another declaration, and I break it soon anyway.... and the cycle continues.

Oh and at some point I declare that my log is done or that I'm outta here and I'm back two minutes later.

Mind you as crazy (this my ego taking a defensive stance) as I seem in every day life, I am certainly one of the more level headed guys around. Believe that if you like, or don't. What's that say for the company I keep? :o

Solution? Quit my job? Leave my family? Study 12 hours a day. Hell no, I don't care too much for my job, but my family, I wouldn't depart for the world, so obviously that was in jest. Yes Serpent had it right, I should've sold my French courses. I have too many resources I am far too attached to, but like a hoarder (okay my ego does defend itself here again and argue that in the future actual paper French books/courses might not be available anymore or could be dumbed down to the extreme, so best hang onto them!).... hang on.. am I a hoarder? Well only with language learning content, in particular, courses. So, like a hoarder, that I actually am, I hoard language learning materials for rainy days (of insanity/perfectionism).

The solution is perhaps to come to terms with the fact that I am Peter Mollenburg, the fallible French learner who is extremely committed to improving French, holds himself back due to perfectionist tendencies and attempts to learn other languages too. That's okay, welcome to being me ;) and you know what, my intentions are good :) It's all about me you see!

On with the show...
12 x

Lawyer&Mom
Blue Belt
Posts: 553
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:08 am
Languages: English (N), German (B2), French (B1)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7786
x 1443

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri May 24, 2019 6:42 pm

I can relate. There are so many French resources I would love to use all at once. I recently went through a TV binge, now it’s a reading streak, and of course there could/should be course work! And if there was enough time I’d love to do all three everyday. But there isn’t, so I don’t. But hey isn’t it great that there are so many fun things to do, even f you can’t do them all. We will never run out! That’s a good thing!
5 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16235
x 5709

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 24, 2019 11:41 pm

Lawyer&Mom wrote:I can relate. There are so many French resources I would love to use all at once. I recently went through a TV binge, now it’s a reading streak, and of course there could/should be course work! And if there was enough time I’d love to do all three everyday. But there isn’t, so I don’t. But hey isn’t it great that there are so many fun things to do, even f you can’t do them all. We will never run out! That’s a good thing!


Indeed, Lawyer&Mom, and thanks for dropping by, and thanks to those as well who are just following along this for this seriously nutty ride that is the ridiculous show of PM. You are certainly correct, Lawyer&Mom. With French there is so much available, and it's a point worth making as I can never seem to get through everything I want to.

So, the question is, do I want to be the King of Courses, the floundering twitt that goes around in circles forever, or Peter Mollenburg, the one that made it to C2.... ummm... eventually, which means I must realise that as there is just so much out there, I need to pick and choose depending on my weaknesses and my goals, as opposed to feeling the necessity to just complete everything. Wise words PM, but many a wise word by PM has led to very little action, and action speaks louder than words. So, I just might keep going around in circles anyway.... or not!
2 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2640
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16235
x 5709

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 30, 2019 9:42 pm

Thought I’d present a summary of my language activity over the last 10 months (French back to July 2018, Dutch to when I began in October 2018):

FRENCH

July 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 19 hours, 54 minutes
Audio courses: 18 hours, 53 minutes
Courses: 15 hours, 37 minutes

Total learning time: 82 hours, 42 minutes
Daily average: 2 hours, 39 minutes

----------------------------------
August 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 29 hours, 19 minutes
Television: 27 hours, 8 minutes
Audio courses: 10 hours, 42 minutes

Total learning time: 95 hours, 40 minutes
Daily average: 3 hours, 5 minutes

----------------------------------
September 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 19 hours, 26 minutes
Television: 14 hours, 26 minutes
Audio courses: 8 hours, 43 minutes

Total learning time: 62 hours, 23 minutes
Daily average: 2 hours, 6 minutes

----------------------------------
October 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 17 hours, 11 minutes
Television: 11 hours, 11 minutes
Courses: 11 hours, 0 minutes

Total learning time: 54 hours, 19 minutes
Daily average: 1 hour, 45 minutes

----------------------------------
November 2018

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 9 hours, 6 minutes
Television: 6 hours, 37 minutes
Podcasts: 6 hours, 2 minutes

Total learning time: 27 hours, 27 minutes
Daily average: 54 minutes

----------------------------------
December 2018

Top 3 activities:
Courses: 22 hours, 45 minutes
Extensive reading: 12 hours, 39 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 58 minutes

Total learning time: 36 hours, 58 minutes
Daily average: 1 hour, 11 minutes

----------------------------------
January 2019

Top 3 activities:
Audio courses: 14 hours, 1 minute
Extensive reading: 10 hours, 15 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 41 minutes

Total learning time: 38 hours, 34 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 14 minutes

----------------------------------
February 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 20 hours, 26 minutes
Audio courses: 4 hours, 29 minutes
Television: 3 hours, 5 minutes

Total learning time: 33 hours, 21 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 11 minutes

----------------------------------
March 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 9 hours, 27 minutes
Audio courses: 7 hours, 39 minutes
Television: 4 hours, 49 minutes

Total learning time: 29 hours, 58 minutes
Daily average: 58 minutes

----------------------------------
April 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 16 hours, 23 minutes
Television: 11 hours, 13 minutes
Courses: 4 hours, 21 minutes

Total learning time: 35 hours, 21 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 10 minutes

----------------------------------
May 2019

Top 3 activities:
Extensive reading: 18 hours, 33 minutes
Television: 16 hours, 35 minutes
Intensive reading: 7 hours, 5 minutes

Total learning time: 53 hours, 53 minutes
Daily average: 1 hours, 44 minutes

----------------------------------

DUTCH

October 2018

Top 2 activities:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 3 hrs, 13 min
Courses: 2 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 7 hrs, 51 min
----------------------------------
November 2018

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 9 hrs, 43 min
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 1 hr, 19 min

Total learning time: 11 hrs, 14 min
----------------------------------
December 2018

Top 2 activities:
Courses: 8 hrs, 11 min
Audio courses: 3 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 14 hrs, 28 min
----------------------------------
January 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 4 hrs, 30 min
Courses: 3 hrs, 17 min

Total learning time: 11 hrs, 3 min
----------------------------------
February 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 7 hrs, 56 min
Television: 50 min

Total learning time: 9 hrs, 6 min
----------------------------------
March 2019

Top 2 activities:
Audio courses: 8 hrs, 34 min
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 1 hr, 47 min

Total learning time: 12 hrs, 21 min
----------------------------------
April 2019

Top 2 activities:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 10 hrs, 28 min
Television: 3 hrs, 24 min

Total learning time: 16 hrs, 23 min
----------------------------------
May 2019

Only activity:
Reading (mix intensive/intensive): 6 hrs, 13 min

Total learning time: 6 hrs, 13 min
----------------------------------

Comments

* Highest months in hours studied highlighted (August 2018 for French and April 2019 for Dutch)
* August 2018 95 hours for French - at this point still considering DALF C1 or C2 Nov 2018, changed plans soon after.
* Hours of French in particular considerably drop off when preparing to move house and once out of house and not in a set routine (lots of moving around).
* Hours of French increase May 2019 as becoming more settled in new house
* Arabic studies Jan-March 2019 totaling a bit over 15 hours.

Edit: ** I think it's actually pretty safe to say that extensive reading is really my main method of learning in terms of time dedicated to the activity. Yes, most of the time it's children's books, as I read to the kids most days, but in terms of having comprehensible input, it's perfect, as although they are childrens's books, there are still plenty of new phrases, expressions and words, but not enough to severely interrupt the flow of reading. At a guess I probably have 95 to 99% comprehension with most of the content I read. That's considered optimal range for learning I believe (according to some, not all). Second to reading, most of the time, I'm listening to large amounts of audio either via TV or through podcasts (actually, usually both). Interesting. I think we can conclude that courses are NOT my main method of learning, but an area I consider very important to my learning. Yes, it used to be my main method, but I think for more than a year (possibly much longer), courses have not been my main method, but an important aspect of my learning.

Edited to re-adjust May 2019 totals, as now 31st May and the day is at a close having done a little more language learning activity since I initially posted numbers earlier in the day.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Fri May 31, 2019 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
9 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3593
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish+ (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German+, Italian+
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian, Czech; Romanian+, Galician; Danish, Swedish
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Chaucer's English
+ means exploring the dialects/variants
x 4902
Contact:

Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Serpent » Fri May 31, 2019 2:10 am

I don't even remember suggesting that you sell/give away your French courses :D Surely I didn't say all of them? Pick a couple of your favourites and get rid of the rest. Maybe not even permanently - you can just store them where you can't easily access them, and preferably where someone (like friends or family) reminds you that you were going to cut down on the courses and do real French :D Consider (re)reading what Khatzumoto wrote about keeping native materials easily available.
(I don't believe there are any reasons to worry about textbook availability, at least if you don't mind buying them used... you're not the only learner with a huge collection of resources)

Also, a couple of links from Benny's blog:
https://www.fluentin3months.com/solve-problems/
https://www.fluentin3months.com/mindtraps/ (new to me as well)

As for your stats... I expected "worse" tbh :D As long as these are not beginner level textbooks, you're doing fine.
1 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests