PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

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jeff_lindqvist
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:18 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread more than necessary, but I read very fast in Swedish and English - having said that, I happened to read more than twice as many books in Swedish (some of the English ones took forever to finish, due to several factors). As I've written elsewhere, how well I read is related to my overall skill. This goes for all my languages. When I was in high school (before the turn of the century...), I preferred preparing for exams by reading the same content (faster) a number of times instead of just once (slowly).

Fast isn't always negative, and slowly isn't always positive. Just make sure you know what you're best at.
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Xmmm
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Xmmm » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:58 pm

smallwhite wrote:
Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
smallwhite wrote:while respecting forum rules.

I get the impression that people who read fast don't assimilate the grammar very well.
Faster reader -> poorer grammar
Slower reader -> better grammar

And grammar has been one of my stronger sides while being a fast reader.

Unfortunately, even if that was true, one person's results is not enough to change global statistics.


What are these global statistics of which you speak? I call bs.

Unfortunately, that's the impression I've gotten here. Which members read fast in their L2 and write in good grammar, given same amount read? How fast or slow do you read in IT and RU?


Edited to remove my previous response.

I have the utmost respect for PM and just remembered I was on his log, which I don't want to trash.

I will just say that a counter-intuitive and highly controversial assertion was made, and supposedly it was backed by "global statistics." And it turned out the global statistics don't exist. An attempt was then made to muddy the waters by talking about my RU and IT, which I'm happy to do on my log, but not here.

Thanks for your patience, PM!
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smallwhite
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:59 am

smallwhite wrote:
Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
smallwhite wrote:while respecting forum rules.

I get the impression that people who read fast don't assimilate the grammar very well.
Faster reader -> poorer grammar
Slower reader -> better grammar

And grammar has been one of my stronger sides while being a fast reader.

Unfortunately, even if that was true, one person's results is not enough to change global statistics.


What are these global statistics of which you speak? I call bs.

Unfortunately, that's the impression I've gotten here. Which members read fast in their L2 and write in good grammar, given same amount read? How fast or slow do you read in IT and RU?


Xmmm wrote:... and supposedly it was backed by "global statistics." And it turned out the global statistics don't exist. An attempt was then made to muddy the waters by talking about my RU and IT, ...

It was my impression, as I stated right from the start and quoted all along. Members I read about form the statistics. And since you form part of this population, an attempt was made to ask you to prove me wrong. I even provided ways to prove me wrong
Oh well.
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trui
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby trui » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:43 am

What are we counting as fast and slow?

I've always heard 250 words given as an average reading speed for English and for me, I'd say that's about right. Nothing wrong with reading slower than that though! I'm currently reading a trilogy in Dutch at around 100 wpm. I find that it's a good rate for my current comprehension level, but even in English, I sometimes read at around 100 words per minute if I'm really savouring a book. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with reading faster either.

smallwhite wrote:while respecting forum rules.

I get the impression that people who read fast don't assimilate the grammar very well.
Faster reader -> poorer grammar
Slower reader -> better grammar


I'd agree, but I'd change 'fast' to 'too fast for one's comprehension level' or at least fast enough to be approaching that point. As for the grammar, you can get to a decent knowledge of grammar through grammar sites and asking lots of questions (I have with Dutch). Someone could have decent grammar without ever picking up a novel.

But if you mean the subtle knowledge of grammar that is most easily gained by consuming lots of native content, then I'd certainly agree that one should be careful not to read too fast for their comprehension level if they want to better assimilate those grammar points and it would make sense if people who read too fast assimilated grammar more poorly than those who read slower or err on the side of caution.
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smallwhite
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:07 am

Xmmm wrote:Edited to remove my previous response.

And I thought that was what you did. Now I see you've added to it instead, after I've posted my response. I really should read faster and learn more online discussion tactics. Who cares about grammar!
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby Xmmm » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:14 am

smallwhite wrote:
Xmmm wrote:Edited to remove my previous response.

And I thought that was what you did. Now I see you've added to it instead, after I've posted my response. I really should read faster and learn more online discussion tactics. Who cares about grammar!


I thought my original post was lost ... I waited several minutes and reposted. This isn't the first time this weekend my posts have disappeared. "Technical difficulties."

Anyway, I stand by what I said. The original conversation was about being a slow reader in L1. The experiences of L2 hobbyists learning or mislearning their TLs for low stakes is irrelevant. And I'm very sorry if I thought "global statistics" meant actual evidence with numbers and stuff. My bad.
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smallwhite
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 2018

Postby smallwhite » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:21 am

Xmmm wrote:The original conversation was about being a slow reader in L1.

The quote I saw in PM's post was:
Cavesa wrote:Extensive reading: let's say you read 40 pages per hour. Ok, 35, to not be called unrealistic (but 40 are realistic in a not too difficult language rather soon, from my experience).

so L2.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:42 am

been shadowing Assimil NFWE in the car, working on the 2nd wave of Assimil Using French (lesson 52), reading through Using French in another wave from the first lesson, and just listening to it in the shower, doing dishes and other activities in another wave. Oh and reading the digital copy in short breaks at work some days. Assimil all round, while I’m continuing to watch TV in French most evenings, ensuring I turn off any subtitles where the option allows for it. Exciting stuff lately... not.
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Carmody
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby Carmody » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:20 am

Trivia:

I walk, talk, and read, real........slowly.

Former President JFK took the following course to speed up his reading.

http://www.ewrd.com/ewrd/index.asp

I also took the course. I was able to read Albert Camus's The Stranger in English in 45 mins. with 90% comprehension. Please to note that speed does not equate in my case with enjoyment. I can do a lot of things faster but I don't find them as enjoyable.
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Cavesa
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Re: PM's French Target: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:27 am

I still cannot see how could overall reading speed affect grammar so much. You cannot compare people just by it, as you will not find two learners who are just the same except for their reading speed.

The idea that reading fast equals bad grammar is not based on anything. In L1 or in L2.

Why has such an innocent thing attracted such defensive answers? The issue was an estimate of how much time would a large pile of books take someone to read. That was all. There was no need for basically calling faster readers careless and bad learners paying a price for the speed. Firstly, it is nonsense. Secondly, nothing offensive was said about slower learners, so it might be nice not to attack faster readers. Really, have we moved nowhere since the first and second grade? :-D
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