Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:24 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I need to attempt to find balance all the while being able to continue learning French and introducing other languages.

Don't you think your French will backslide if you're not spending time on it? What is your plan to maintain your current level in French plus become adroit with exam formats?
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:59 pm

Thanks for your replies everyone!

rdearman wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I need to attempt to find balance all the while being able to continue learning French and introducing other languages.

Don't you think your French will backslide if you're not spending time on it? What is your plan to maintain your current level in French plus become adroit with exam formats?


Hi rdearman,
I can’t avoid the coming move to Saudi. Whether or not I sat the exam, I was to cut back on French anyway, simply because I feel it would be too ignorant of me to not attempt to learn some Arabic. Thus, the focus was going to shift from 100% French to some other percentage, regardless (exam or not).

At B2 (May 2017), the same teacher felt introducing other languages was a bad idea that could hurt my progress in French. I reluctantly but wisely agreed. The same question at my current level, she responded with encouragement in introducing other languages now. She mentioned that staying in touch with the language daily, would be very wise, but that even dropping it altogether for some months, in her opinion would unlikely cause much harm, given my level.

She did recommend regular conversation, suggesting even 30 min once a week, despite my decent ability to converse (I’m not perfect), affirming the many benefits of doing so (of which I don’t get enough of).

I asked her whether one hour of French a day over a year would, in her opinion, have me ready for the exam, using exam prep materials, to which she stated yes.

Basically, she was indicating I’m up to the task but am way off on the exam format itself predominantly with regards to the writing component. Other areas with regards to my abilities were of little concern to her.

So, were I to work super-hard over the next month focusing 95% of my energy on the writing formats, I possibly could pass, but she felt it could be quite a negative experience that could put me under pressure and do more harm than good. I left my run too late, but so be it.

When she suggested I write a piece and get it back to her within a week to assess how big of a task lay ahead of me for the writing component, I stated I need time to even comprehend how to structure the writing. She then said, that if I don’t feel I can write while conforming to the expected framework, then it would be a very difficult task indeed within the time frame, and one best left for another time, when I’ve more time to prepare.

Sorry rdearman, I’ll now actually answer you. I’m planning still on a couple of hours of French a day, but am unsure whether in reality i’ll be able to do that amount (it might be only one hour). I’m planning on one hour intensive study a day and one hour of Super-Challenge-like extensive activities. I’m not going to do any exam prep in the coming 12 months. At least that’s how I feel at this point. I’d rather learn more ‘real French’ than learn exam formats right now. I’ll also continue to read and speak to our children in French, and the majority of my media will be in French in other stolen moments. So, going backwards is unlikely.

Edit: Also I have decided I will be studying Modern Standard Arabic from a French base wherever possible, and given a list of ressources I’ve compiled, unless really keen to use a particular English-based course, studying from a 100% French base should be entirely possible. That will also help my French a little :) But with the Najdi Arabic dialect, given the absolute scarcity of ressources, I’ll take what I can get in whatever base language I can comprehend (I’m even considering using materials for nearby dialects if I can’t find any in my chosen dialect)...
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:07 pm

I’m planning on keeping this log ongoing, as French will continue to remain my main foreign language. Not sure if I’ll start an Arabic log, prob just rename this one and pop in some relevant links on the first page.
edit: renamed! (simple!)
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's French and Arabic Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am

Well after I did a flip and decided to sit the exam anyway, a day and a half (or 4 hrs) study again had me drawing the same conclusion: no, you don’t want to do this with so little time. I’ve barely made in-roads in the Production Écrite C1/C2 book. Yes I memorised a complete table of ‘connecteurs’ and their purposes and started to get my head around how to write a résumé, but I risk, even with masses of study each day, missing the mark, so again I resigned myself to the fact that it’s best not to sit this thing.

I concluded that a lengthy period of dedicated C1 (or C2 if that was the case) focused study would be ideal (for me), so I could take my time and feel completely ready. 6 months min, 12 months max, I think of perhaps an hour or two a day. I think regular tutoring (italki perhaps) and even an Alliance Français C1 course (or sth similar- tutoring in person even), to prepare myself for the academic nature of the exam would certainly be useful. During such a period of exam focus, I would also need to feel as though other study (reading, watching, courses was) was completely up to the task and wouldn’t need dedicated time as it should take care of itself and the exam would be the primary (and almost only) focus.

So, I’m not going to sit the C1/C2 anytime soon, I’m going to work on gaps and things I want to work on to improve my French overall and one day... maybe...
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:10 am

Well I’ve come up with a plan (for now). I say for now, as I want to make it relevant to now not for after we’ve moved, as I truly have no idea what my free time will look like.

While I continue to read in French to the kids, I began reading to them yesterday and today via a couple of short stories, in Dutch and Spanish. As I feel accent is no issue (I already am quite familiar with the pronunciation of these languages), even if I’m not following the stories myself very well at all. However, I caved. This morning I decided I do need to study the languages a little as well.

So my current plan goes like this:

First hour in the morning:
Intensive French (30 minutes of a course/ 30 minutes Bien-dire magazine with a focus on learning uknown vocabularly)

2nd and 3rd hours if time permits:
A rotation of one hour each of Dutch and Spanish, both using courses, but if time doesn’t allow for both, so be it, i’ll do that language the next day after my initial hour of French.

This way French remains a mainstay, and gets a good hour of intensive study every day.

So, those intensive hours of study above will generally take place in the morning.

And since I really struggle to study in the afternoons and evenings, I’m going to play to that tendency and allow for around about (won’t be too concerned) one hour of extensive French, more if I feel like it. Thus, reading and watching.

There’ll also be some time on commutes and while driving during one of my jobs. French will remain, but I may add some Dutch and Spanish, basically I’m a bit freer now than before.

I will continue to read to the kids here and there in French as a priority and add a little Dutch and Spanish as well.

So, with the above plan, i’ll ought to get around 2 hours of French a day at least if not more most days.

Dutch and Spanish at best an hour a day, but perhaps more realistically closer to half an hour. I might change the 1 hour of each to half hour of each instead if it means I get exposure every day instead of every second, if I find i’m not really getting to them both on any given day.

Arabic is yet to feature as I’m not ready to start. I don’t know what will make me ready, as I could simply buy a course right now, but I’m not wanting to just yet. If it takes a more central role as soon as we relocate, then at least I will have gotten a head start with Dutch and Spanish and feel more comfortable reading to the kids, so that if I have to cut back due to Arabic’s importance, it won’t be so bad.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby Melkor » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:48 am

Peter, it is beyond contestation that your log has the best title. I am very impressed by your creativity!

I only read the last three pages of it, but I would say that IF you had already paid for the exam, then you should at least try and get your money's worth of exams. IF you had not paid for the C1 exam, then do not lose sleep over it, cut your losses and focus on Arabic (whilst slowly working on the C1 French format.) You have been working on French for 6 years, and are more than able to live/work in a French country without resorting to self-immolation as a solution to not being able to communicate with the locals.

Arabic is a HUGE investment and I am impressed that you have dedicated your time to a Category 5 language. This speaks volumes about you and your work ethic. I will keenly follow your progress!
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby DaveAgain » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:03 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:While I continue to read in French to the kids, I began reading to them yesterday and today via a couple of short stories, in Dutch and Spanish. As I feel accent is no issue (I already am quite familiar with the pronunciation of these languages), even if I’m not following the stories myself very well at all.
If you've not seen it yet, you might like Prof Arguelles recent video. He mentions doing a lot of L2 reading to his children.
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:53 am

Melkor wrote:Peter, it is beyond contestation that your log has the best title. I am very impressed by your creativity!

I only read the last three pages of it, but I would say that IF you had already paid for the exam, then you should at least try and get your money's worth of exams. IF you had not paid for the C1 exam, then do not lose sleep over it, cut your losses and focus on Arabic (whilst slowly working on the C1 French format.) You have been working on French for 6 years, and are more than able to live/work in a French country without resorting to self-immolation as a solution to not being able to communicate with the locals.

Arabic is a HUGE investment and I am impressed that you have dedicated your time to a Category 5 language. This speaks volumes about you and your work ethic. I will keenly follow your progress!


I appreciate the positive words Melkor. In some ways though, it's not that impressive, as according to many sources, I ought to have learned French a few times over. Still, those of us who take such 'measurements' (think time to B2/C1/C2 estimations found abound online) with a grain of salt, may see my journey as completely realistic in terms of time and effort. It illustrates that it's definitely a big task getting to an advanced level in any language, despite the category.

The main positive thing that I think can be taken from my log is commitment or endurance, or determination or consistency. One or some of those words. That's what's led to my success. That I can be proud of. It wouldn't have happened though without several failures over the years. Those failures led to absolute determination and my choice to focus on one language only. Whether my methods are good, bad, slow or fast, the take home lesson is start learning a language and don't stop. Stop and you will fail, as inaction will not get you to your goal(s).

I'm not too fussed about the C1, oddly enough. I didn't pay for the exam. Had I, I believe I would be still preparing for it now. Perhaps that would've been a good thing, perhaps a bad thing. I don't see it as an any thing. It just is, that's the way my journey has gone. I didn't succeed in that respect though, because I was determined (again) to sit it and pass. Still, as long as I continue improving my French, that day will likely arise down the track, and were I truly strongly concerned with missing out this time, I'd be resorting to C1/C2 materials predominantly in my French time, but instead, I'm content with putting all that aside.

A thing I'd like to point out, if we assume I am C1 in French (one tutor's word isn't necessarily a guarantee, but I think it's safe to assume her judgement as pretty decent given her experience). I tend to agree with her, and generally I underestimate my level, so we'll say I'm C1. Okay, after that waffle, despite being around C1, since I don't interact with natives regularly, it still feels like I need to 'push' the language daily, if not to improve ever so slightly here and there, then even just to remain at this level. I'm sure everyone's experience is different, but that's mine, and perhaps as it is, as I feel I've accomplished it through mainly 'simulated' or artificial circumstances. I'm craving native interaction to still lock a lot of French in. Had I taken on this journey alongside native interaction (i.e. living in a francophone country) I do believe the journey would've been shorter and I'd feel more at ease with the language. By how much I wouldn've cut the journey down, I have no idea, but speaking would help retain a lot of vocab that I forget and have had to relearn several times. Okay, relearning/forgetting is normal, whatever the conditions, but i'm sure it would've been more efficient had I interacted with francophones more often (speaking). It would also help ensure passive vocabulary becomes active much faster than not living in a francophone country.

I spent only 5 months in the Netherlands in 2011 and it felt that, despite my Dutch skills being somewhere between B1 and B2, and despite being a bit of a home body while there and not necessarily using the language at length on a regular basis, the language infused itself into me. Even years later a lot of it is sitting there at the ready (although dissipating gradually). That is because I was there on location, using the language with natives.

As for Arabic, don't give me too much credit. It is a Cat V language, and I've spent six years (truth be told a good chunk more of time when I count previous attempts in my younger years) on a Cat I language! I've not started Arabic yet either. I could fail miserably. The way I see it, the best way to succeed would be to put as much time into it as I can afford. Unfortunately this means less time for other languages. I've been fighting a constant inner war in recent days over how I'm to proceed now. I'm literally reworking my language study plan ten times a day. I wake up the following day and have another epiphany. So many epiphanies has got to mean, none of them are actually epiphanies, it's all just mental noise, but how to proceed... grrr... I'm like a kid in a candy store... i WANT THEM ALL!

POSSIBLE PLAN (with conflicts elaborated):
French must remain. My absolute minimum daily French is one hour dedicated study spreading myself thinly over several intensive and extensive resources. Not ideal, but given other languages need attention, it's also not a catastrophe. Another hour of reading to the kids in French during the day as well. French will remain my default language, trumping English wherever possible. Two hours total is not the end of the world, but given I have focused solely on French up to this point, cutting back doesn't come easy.

Arabic. Well, I'm only going to be in Riyadh for as little as one year, perhaps more than two years. Think six years of French only, and now I'm considering Arabic! Should I not take advantage of living in an Arabic country? Well, yes, time is limited, get solidly into the language, devour it, study it to pieces, as much as possible! But... English will be widely spoken in the circles I'll be in, I mean so much so the need for Arabic could be very to extremely low, unless I go out of my way. Oh, and then there's the dialect situation. Saudi Arabic (Najdi, Hijazi, Gulf Arabic) are not the same as Modern Standard Arabic. I've even heard it's like two different languages. So I'll be learning one Cat V Arabic and another kind of Arabic that's maybe somewhere between Cat III and V. I read it's best to start with the dialect. I read it's best to start with MSA. I read everyone will speak English, I read speaking even a little Arabic will open up a world of hospitable connections. I'll be in a western compound most days of the week..... Okay, ultimately this is around 2 years, I SHOULD make the most of it, but, many buts...

Other languages
I feel with my daughter turning 5 next year, if I want her to assimilate even a little of some other European languages, so that she has some understanding of more languages, I probably should start reading to her in, well, other languages, as well as French. So, I've targeted Dutch and Spanish building to a routine of 30 min of each a day. Yes, I know how to pronounce words near native, but my grammar and vocab are limited (Spanish more so). Thus, I feel like it would go much better if I could get into some study of these languages as well, even 30 min every 2nd day of each as it can't really be much more. Okay, maybe I could just read 30min a day of each and forgo the study, as Arabic needs (more) attention than these languages. Post Saudi, I could cut back on Arabic and ramp up the study time on European languages.

Then there's Norwegian. It's pulling at me, continuously. My daughter has indicated interest in it. I've no idea about the pronunciation, the grammar, the whatever. I'm at zero. I can't just read in this one and forgo study. So, if I want to introduce this one as well, I must study it.

And I doubt I'll have beyond 3 hours a day free for dedicated language time. 4 max. This is where reading to the children and involving them in languages aids me, but also helps them. It will be in my interest and theirs to read to them, as such an approach to learning could be a mainstay in future as time could potentially less available for dedicated study time. Okay, so the 3-4 hrs/ day could be less, but somehow I hope it's more. Still, I want to actually have a life as well, and not just be at a desk all f*** day. Keep studying as much as I do without regular exercise, and i'm asking for health problems. Funny, I used to be obsessed with sport. Even sitting still for shorter periods of time daily is very unhealthy. We were made to move. Perhaps I'll ride my bike among the Saudi traffic while studying, kids on the back and do some sand kayaking with my books taped to the deck of the kayak speaking to camels in local dialect. Yep, done!

POSSIBLE PLAN :
1 hr French a day (and another hour reading to the kids, bonus as not counted in my focused study time).
Spanish and Dutch - 30min reading of each to the children/day (also bonus time).
Arabic 2 to 3 hours/day.
Norwegian 30min a day, with an aim to introduce reading to children after one year once comfortable with the language pronunciation, structure and some vocab.

This is the best I can come up with that sees me studying all languages except German that are on my shortlist wish list. It allows for French to have it's rightly deserved place, and Arabic to be granted max time all the while Norwegian gets a tiny feature on a daily basis.

Peace out, the waffle king, ya dig?
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:36 am

DaveAgain wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:While I continue to read in French to the kids, I began reading to them yesterday and today via a couple of short stories, in Dutch and Spanish. As I feel accent is no issue (I already am quite familiar with the pronunciation of these languages), even if I’m not following the stories myself very well at all.
If you've not seen it yet, you might like Prof Arguelles recent video. He mentions doing a lot of L2 reading to his children.


Excellent! Thank you so much for this link DaveAgain for linking to this video, I really enjoyed it :)
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Re: Pete Mollenburg's Adventures in the Matrix in French and other languages

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:33 am

Arabic (MSA) materials on their way, Dutch and Spanish resurrection under way, Norwegian entrering the picture (yes, really), and French forever! Only German remains to be added out of all languages on my must do list (Norwegian think yourself lucky to have pushed out German for the time being and to have made the list that you were originally never on!).

Can I manage it? Theoretically yes, but the big move is approaching and I’ve done jack %#}* to prepare, so it’s likely my tight schedule of language learning will suffer. I hope Riyadh runs like a well oiled machine and has me and my children leaving there as polyglots in the making equipped with a good dose of respect and longlasting curiosity towards other cultures and languages. (excuse me a second, I just need to check with my PR team, whether what I’ve said is PC friendly enough while still sounding full of adventure and tones down my ego’s attempt at DOMINATING THE WORLD OF POLYGLOTS... ahahahahahahahaaaaas....!!!).

In other mainstream PC controlled PM news (is that a little contradictory?), I just returned from the supermarket in my old home town (here for the w/end). No, there’s more to it... I walked past some ppl in the s’market and my 1.5 ears (think: tinnitus, it’s so awesome) latched onto some French. Practically without hesitation I began speaking French to the 2 francophones (1 x Belgian, 1 x French). It was a really friendly flowing conversation interjected with "wow you’re not French?!" and "tell us how you have learned it so well’ and "hey this guy is not French" to Irish girlfriends... I left on a real (ego swelling) high. Conversation also confirmed anecdotally that general survival in France/Belgium (cost of living, quality of life) is indeed several rungs/levels/notches/magpies below what it is here in Australia. And also that Luxembourg and Switzerland as a frontalier (daily border crosser for employment purposes) are good objectives that would bring ones finances in as comfortable a position as one can have in Australia if not noticeably improved upon.

If it happens, it’s a long way off now with Saudi on the horizon. Cash money ppl cash money, it’s ruling our behaviour is so many ways. Just hit the east side of the LBC on a mission tryin’na find Mr Warren G...
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