Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4978
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17680

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Cavesa » Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:44 pm

I agree with Sarafina 100%.

The internet has been lowering the differences between the privileged and less privileged learners. And that means not only the economical privilege (despite that one being definitely one of the most important and most widely spread ones) but also geographical (good luck trying to learn Portuguese as a native Czech without the internet, you'll end at weak B1 at best, that's just one of many examples), social (the internet is the way to break the myths and nonsense people around you think and impose on you, when you simply don't have the privilege of living in a more enlightened community), and even health or family situation related ones (not everyone can simply leave their house for two evenings per week to go to classes somewhere).

Yes, you are right that technologies need to be taken with the negative sides on mind too. But the positive ones outweight that.

Simply put: without the technologies, the internet, and everything that came with it, I would be nowhere near where I am now in my languages and life.

I am not Amish. I do not find their choice foolish and I wish them happiness (and only hope that every young Amish gets an opportunity to choose whether to follow the same path). I admire their courage to stick with their beliefs despite all the discomfort. But I do not want to live like one.

And I do not want to live like a typical Czech either and I would have to without technologies and my languages. You might find a lot of sympathisers here, when it comes to technologies criticism, conspiracy theories, and such stuff. But (unlike you of course) they are usually uneducated, poor, easily manipulated by politicians and anyone else, envious, and without any hope for a better life. I do not want to be like them and education WITH the use of modern technologies is the only way to avoid such a fate.

I do not know a single person of my generation that would have really good education and be successful and happy without using the internet a lot. It is in some ways sad but it is the truth. I don't know a single really successful language learner who wouldn't either use the internet based resources (either primarily learning tools or at least movies) or be privileged enough to have studied at least one semester abroad.

I’m certain many language learners advanced rather effectively pre mobile devices, pre internet and without travelling. But yes increased access today does help, but good things are not always good things.

Yeah? Which ones? What do you mean rather effectively?

No offence meant, but I don't think you have a clue. The generation of my parents should have been learning languages rather effectively, without access to foreign media, with one or two coursebooks for general public per language (and not ever language) on the market, with barbed wire and dogs around the borders, shouldn't it? You've got a perfect sample for this thought experiment of yours here. Well, they were monolingual. Those who were "successful learners" were at most A2/B1 by today's standards. Sure, there were people with language degrees working as translators with the skills, there were people with the experience of abroad stays, but those were really a selected group of people cooperating with the regime on various levels, not just someone who wanted to learn a language.

And even after the fall of communism. I am a 90's child. And I remember it damn well, I remember the beginning of the millennium too, and the progressive spread and growth of the internet. Because I was a weird child that decided to learn French in those days, when I should have been "advancing rather effectively" as you say, that's why I remember. Can you imagine how poor the language learning shelves in the bookstores and libraries were? How expensive everything was, simply because there was no cheaper online alternative or an eshop competing with the normal stores? Can you imagine that a very crappy course was considered awesome just because it was the only modern looking one on the market and everyone was blaming themselves or the language for failure instead? That the selection of foreign books in a library was rather poor and you definitely couldn't have afforded a luxury like having your own taste? That the only way to get listening exposure was buying the cassettes (or newly cds) that were twice or thrice as expensive as the corresponding coursebook? Or how dependent on the teacher you were and how damned you were, if they simply sucked? How pointless it all seemed to be, as the paid lessons with a teacher were not only the way to learn a language but also the only use you were likely to ever have for the language?

Sure, there were successful learners even in the 17th century or in the 4th century B.C. but not people like you and me.

Yes, there are clear risks of the technologies and problems, but I wouldn't trade them for the hopeless ignorant world before.
10 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3240
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8066

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:08 pm

Cavesa wrote:I agree with Sarafina 100%.

The internet has been lowering the differences between the privileged and less privileged learners. And that means not only the economical privilege (despite that one being definitely one of the most important and most widely spread ones) but also geographical (good luck trying to learn Portuguese as a native Czech without the internet, you'll end at weak B1 at best, that's just one of many examples), social (the internet is the way to break the myths and nonsense people around you think and impose on you, when you simply don't have the privilege of living in a more enlightened community), and even health or family situation related ones (not everyone can simply leave their house for two evenings per week to go to classes somewhere).

Yes, you are right that technologies need to be taken with the negative sides on mind too. But the positive ones outweight that.

Simply put: without the technologies, the internet, and everything that came with it, I would be nowhere near where I am now in my languages and life.

I am not Amish. I do not find their choice foolish and I wish them happiness (and only hope that every young Amish gets an opportunity to choose whether to follow the same path). I admire their courage to stick with their beliefs despite all the discomfort. But I do not want to live like one.

And I do not want to live like a typical Czech either and I would have to without technologies and my languages. You might find a lot of sympathisers here, when it comes to technologies criticism, conspiracy theories, and such stuff. But (unlike you of course) they are usually uneducated, poor, easily manipulated by politicians and anyone else, envious, and without any hope for a better life. I do not want to be like them and education WITH the use of modern technologies is the only way to avoid such a fate.

I do not know a single person of my generation that would have really good education and be successful and happy without using the internet a lot. It is in some ways sad but it is the truth. I don't know a single really successful language learner who wouldn't either use the internet based resources (either primarily learning tools or at least movies) or be privileged enough to have studied at least one semester abroad.

I’m certain many language learners advanced rather effectively pre mobile devices, pre internet and without travelling. But yes increased access today does help, but good things are not always good things.

Yeah? Which ones? What do you mean rather effectively?

No offence meant, but I don't think you have a clue. The generation of my parents should have been learning languages rather effectively, without access to foreign media, with one or two coursebooks for general public per language (and not ever language) on the market, with barbed wire and dogs around the borders, shouldn't it? You've got a perfect sample for this thought experiment of yours here. Well, they were monolingual. Those who were "successful learners" were at most A2/B1 by today's standards. Sure, there were people with language degrees working as translators with the skills, there were people with the experience of abroad stays, but those were really a selected group of people cooperating with the regime on various levels, not just someone who wanted to learn a language.

And even after the fall of communism. I am a 90's child. And I remember it damn well, I remember the beginning of the millennium too, and the progressive spread and growth of the internet. Because I was a weird child that decided to learn French in those days, when I should have been "advancing rather effectively" as you say, that's why I remember. Can you imagine how poor the language learning shelves in the bookstores and libraries were? How expensive everything was, simply because there was no cheaper online alternative or an eshop competing with the normal stores? Can you imagine that a very crappy course was considered awesome just because it was the only modern looking one on the market and everyone was blaming themselves or the language for failure instead? That the selection of foreign books in a library was rather poor and you definitely couldn't have afforded a luxury like having your own taste? That the only way to get listening exposure was buying the cassettes (or newly cds) that were twice or thrice as expensive as the corresponding coursebook? Or how dependent on the teacher you were and how damned you were, if they simply sucked? How pointless it all seemed to be, as the paid lessons with a teacher were not only the way to learn a language but also the only use you were likely to ever have for the language?

Sure, there were successful learners even in the 17th century or in the 4th century B.C. but not people like you and me.

Yes, there are clear risks of the technologies and problems, but I wouldn't trade them for the hopeless ignorant world before.


I think Cavesa, that you will continue to strongly oppose many of my ideas, musings, ponderings and convictions. I’ve not the time or the energy to debate this. I’d rather sleep now and learn more French tomorrow (not that you are trying to take those things away from me, because you aren’t). I’m tired of debates and I need to shut up more and get on with life, or steer things back on course. You see things as very black and white, imo. We have very different world views. I’ve no doubt you’re very intelligent, likely quite beyond me, honestly, so I’m in no way holding a condescending view of you and/or your views.

I want to emphasize that I haven’t stated that technology isn’t helping us learn languages -what I’m saying is that I understand both sides here. I simply wanted to point out the negatives of technology, and I clearly indicated I didn’t want a debate. I appreciate your sharing, but I won’t be baited into a debate, since, as I said, I understand and see and use the benefits of technology. However, I feel there’s more than meets the eye here. Yes, it’s fantastic for education, but the further we ‘advance’ the more damage we do, the more we distract ourselves and despite increased access to knowledge, ironically we open ourselves to susceptibility of perpetual ignorance. That is my opinion, no need to debate it, change it, whatever it, at 40, hindsight is bringing valuable insights I never saw at 20. It’s my view, not necessary to debate it, but I repect your position.
7 x

Skynet
Green Belt
Posts: 310
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:37 pm
Location: San Francisco
Languages: English (N)
Shona (N)
French (DELF B2)
German (Goethe-Zertifikat B2)
Spanish (DELE B2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8686
x 949

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Skynet » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:58 pm

Ani wrote:
Skynet wrote:I cannot wait to read works by Orwell and Bradbury in French! I am also convinced that Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises I-IV can provide enough material for C1 (and perhaps even C2). IV is extremely complex!!! I cannot wait to get there!


No I really don't think any course is going to get you to C1. This is a great course for sure but nothing alone is good enough. There is no speaking or listening component (not significantly.. there is a bit of audio) so you absolutely have to get those elsewhere. There is a lot of modern language missing. While the book 4 reading is excellent & the commentary on the nuances of meaning are high level, that just isn't enough reading to build the fluency and speed that a C1 reader has.

While this course might have you covered in grammar, writing and comprehension, (maybe.. I am still missing the 3rd book) nothing will excuse you from engaging with native materials.


Oh wow! I am glad to see that you went through Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises I-IV and are thus able to attest that not even the 4th book can take you to C1. It looks like I have a LOT of work ahead of me before I make the quantum leap to C1. I also wanted to ask if you have the audios for the 3rd and 4th books? Perhaps they stopped providing audio in the belief that "you should be able to pronounce the words after the 2nd book"?

PeterMollenburg wrote: And back to languages. They can be learned without (much) technology.

I have always preferred physical copies of books to digital ones. I could have easily bought and torrented language learning material online, but I, do to nostalgia, opted for the physical (non-tech) version to learn languages using courses.
2 x

User avatar
Ani
Brown Belt
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:58 am
Location: Alaska
Languages: English (N), speaks French, Russian & Icelandic (beginner)
x 3842
Contact:

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Ani » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:23 am

Skynet wrote:
Ani wrote:
Skynet wrote:I cannot wait to read works by Orwell and Bradbury in French! I am also convinced that Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises I-IV can provide enough material for C1 (and perhaps even C2). IV is extremely complex!!! I cannot wait to get there!


No I really don't think any course is going to get you to C1. This is a great course for sure but nothing alone is good enough. There is no speaking or listening component (not significantly.. there is a bit of audio) so you absolutely have to get those elsewhere. There is a lot of modern language missing. While the book 4 reading is excellent & the commentary on the nuances of meaning are high level, that just isn't enough reading to build the fluency and speed that a C1 reader has.

While this course might have you covered in grammar, writing and comprehension, (maybe.. I am still missing the 3rd book) nothing will excuse you from engaging with native materials.


Oh wow! I am glad to see that you went through Cours de Langue et de Civilisation Françaises I-IV and are thus able to attest that not even the 4th book can take you to C1. It looks like I have a LOT of work ahead of me before I make the quantum leap to C1. I also wanted to ask if you have the audios for the 3rd and 4th books? Perhaps they stopped providing audio in the belief that "you should be able to pronounce the words after the 2nd book"?


I haven't "gone though" all four books the way I'd consider them done. I've read through lots of them, not cover to cover and I'm going through the first book exercise by exercise right now. I've already filled an entire notebook in just 20 lessons and my hand is nearly falling off. It will be a while before I exhaust these books.

No I don't have audio for it, nor have I looked. The audio for the first book was so low quality in really have no intention of torturing myself with ancient recordings. Book 4 is basically a reader with some critical thinking questions. I'm not sure why there would be audio anyway.
3 x
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Xmmm » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:03 am

Cavesa wrote:No offence meant, but I don't think you have a clue.

...

Yes, there are clear risks of the technologies and problems, but I wouldn't trade them for the hopeless ignorant world before.


I'll take the world that created Elvis, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Van Morrison, the Clash, the Police, Midnight Oil, the Divinyls (throwing in a couple Australian groups for PM), Adam Ant, Big Country, and the Cranberries over the world that created Maroon 5, One Direction, and Bruno Mars any day.

Do you know why there was so much great British and American music in the hopeless, clueless world of the past but not now? Technology.

The music industry now has Big Data, and the algorithms tell them the smart money is on making new songs that are slight tweaks of what is already popular, rather than doing something crazy.

This is just one -- one -- example of how technology has damaged a core part of what it means to be human (having decent music to listen to). I love English-language music of the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s but I am also heartily sick of it because I've been waiting almost 30 years to hear something new. Whenever I stop at a gas station, it's Led Zeppelin or U2 or Duran Duran or Madonna all over again. When I hear it, sometimes I feel like I'm going to start screaming and not be able to stop.

But the only place I can hear something new is in Russia (Аигел), where evidently the music business is not as technologically advanced.

I disagree with PM on a lot of details, but his overall feeling of paranoia is spot-on as far as I'm considered and I happily consider myself to be his comrade marching under the "clueless" banner.
3 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

User avatar
Ani
Brown Belt
Posts: 1433
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:58 am
Location: Alaska
Languages: English (N), speaks French, Russian & Icelandic (beginner)
x 3842
Contact:

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Ani » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:24 am

Xmmm wrote:
Cavesa wrote:No offence meant, but I don't think you have a clue.

...

Yes, there are clear risks of the technologies and problems, but I wouldn't trade them for the hopeless ignorant world before.


I'll take the world that created Elvis, Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Van Morrison, the Clash, the Police, Midnight Oil, the Divinyls (throwing in a couple Australian groups for PM), Adam Ant, Big Country, and the Cranberries over the world that created Maroon 5, One Direction, and Bruno Mars any day.

Do you know why there was so much great British and American music in the hopeless, clueless world of the past but not now? Technology.

The music industry now has Big Data, and the algorithms tell them the smart money is on making new songs that are slight tweaks of what is already popular, rather than doing something crazy.


Please don't take this the wrong way but are you sure you're not just getting old? ;) I'm pretty sure my grandfather had the same complaint about the Beatles, and while I had the Beatles, I chose Nirvana and the Pixies. Each generation will listen to what speaks to them or create something that does.

I really don't mean to argue with you, and I don't care enough for music to make a long debate from this :)
6 x
But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3240
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8066

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:57 pm

Thanks Xmmm, nice to have your support.
***************************

I know I’m all kinds of adjectives depending on your point of view.

Cavesa, I truly value your input and massive amount of help and assistance you have provided me on language learning and I almost always enjoy (in some kind of tormented way) engaging in debates with you, as poorly as I defend myself at times.

I did take offense to this somewhat:
Cavesa wrote:No offence meant, but I don't think you have a clue

However, you’re entitled to your opinion and I admit there’s many things I’m completely ignorant of. We are at odds on many things, and since I am at the other end of the scale, I equally feel you have no clue, and I say this not in retaliation but to demonstrate the futility of debate.

We simply hold very different views, perhaps both equally valid if anyone put themselves in our shoes, knew what we knew, experienced what we have and felt what we felt. In other words, we could argue forever and get nowhere as we hold those views for very valid reasons. We would add frustrations, waste time, I’ve no doubt I’d make myself look stupid, and we’d rant a lot.

But I have been thinking about how I basically said “let’s stop the debate here shall we Cavesa” and felt I was too abrupt/maybe rude. I felt like I could’ve been interpreted as rude, but didn’t want to be, that is to say, it wasn’t my intention. Please know I meant to be assertive and respectful by enforcing boundaries, and therefore not rude and disrespectful because I felt I might lose the argument (I know I would anyway, regardless).

Interpret my waffling here as an attempt at showing you respect and high regard despite what could’ve been viewed as rude. To me, and many others here, you’re an extremely valuable member of this forum. I apologise if I caused any offense.

****************

August French summary
My best month of French this year!!
Total hours of French: 95hrs 40min
Daily average: 3hrs 5min

Breakdown
Extensive reading: 29hrs 19min
Television: 27hrs 8min
Audio courses: 10hrs 42min
Podcasts: 9hrs 13min
Intensive reading: 7hrs 42min
Courses: 5hrs 40min
(isolated) Vocabulary (acquisition): 5hrs 5min
Audio books: 45min
3 x

Xmmm
Blue Belt
Posts: 821
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Languages: ru it tr
x 2221

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Xmmm » Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:54 pm

Ani wrote:
Xmmm wrote:
Cavesa wrote:
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you sure you're not just getting old? ;) I'm pretty sure my grandfather had the same complaint about the Beatles, and while I had the Beatles, I chose Nirvana and the Pixies. Each generation will listen to what speaks to them or create something that does.

I really don't mean to argue with you, and I don't care enough for music to make a long debate from this :)


Actually, you're the one that's old because you're choosing the defunct Nirvana and I'm choosing a current Russian band that only formed in 2017*. :)

I'm aware of the argument "everything seemed better because you were younger back then" and I am certainly often guilty of it. But there have been articles in the mainstream press on the music industry's use of Big Data and its stifling of innovation**. I think any reasonable outside observer would agree that in the last 20 years there haven't been any off-the-wall new styles of popular music that have hit it big.


* This is my attempt to bring it back to language learning. Аигел is way better than anything I've heard in American music since the 1990s. I listen to Аигел in the car. I understand a little, but some of the Russian is very fast and some of the Russian is actually Tatar so ...

**I'm sure everyone has heard of the recent UK "pick the best group and they play at Christmas on BBC radio live" contest sponsored by Simon Cowell to push his flavor of the month clone band. And how some people rebelled and started a viral campaign to select "Killing in the Name Of" by Rage Against the Machine (1992) because it ends with a rather profane and defiant chorus. And it won. And they had to play it on the radio. And the BBC radio people said to the band "You promise not to use the obscene version, because it's radio, you know" and the band "sure, we promise." But of course the band is named Rage Against the Machine and Simon Cowell and BBC are part of the Machine so .... they had to cut the band off. :)
3 x

Ещё раз сунешь голову туда — окажешься внутри. Поняла, Фемида? -- аигел

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 7255
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 23256
Contact:

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Fri Aug 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Xmmm wrote:**I'm sure everyone has heard of the recent UK "pick the best group and they play at Christmas on BBC radio live" contest sponsored by Simon Cowell to push his flavor of the month clone band. And how some people rebelled and started a viral campaign to select "Killing in the Name Of" by Rage Against the Machine (1992) because it ends with a rather profane and defiant chorus. And it won. And they had to play it on the radio. And the BBC radio people said to the band "You promise not to use the obscene version, because it's radio, you know" and the band "sure, we promise." But of course the band is named Rage Against the Machine and Simon Cowell and BBC are part of the Machine so .... they had to cut the band off.

Sorry to derail your log PM, but I had to laugh because I voted for Rage against the machine, and from then on in the month of December I'm like: Let's listen to some Christmas number ones. bwahhhahahhahaa. (BTW, My wife is really, really tired of this joke)
5 x
: 26 / 150 Read 150 books in 2024

My YouTube Channel
The Autodidactic Podcast
My Author's Newsletter

I post on this forum with mobile devices, so excuse short msgs and typos.

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4782
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 15019

Re: Pete Mollenburg's French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Iversen » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:09 pm

Ani wrote:Please don't take this the wrong way but are you sure you're not just getting old? ;) I'm pretty sure my grandfather had the same complaint about the Beatles, and while I had the Beatles, I chose Nirvana and the Pixies. Each generation will listen to what speaks to them or create something that does.


I'm in the same boat as Ani's grandfather - The Beatles may have lived in the same period as me, but I preferred Bruckner and Vivaldi and Beethoven and Bach & Co, and I still do.
3 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: guyome and 2 guests