Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[PeterMollenburg]

Edit: I also own MT “French Vocabulary Course”, and can’t even remember what it was like. It’s highly likely a waste of money and you’re better of reading, using SRS or word lists. The rest of MT for the record I found rather well done and great for quick activation of various verb tenses burried within commonly used sentences.

Actually I found this was absolutely the best of all the MT courses for French. It is presented by an English lady with a lovely melodic voice in perfect English. There are no learners and the repetition of the phrases are done by French natives in perfect French. The courses is based on the MT method and she builds up vocabulary in the same way MT does. Seriously if I were going to recommend a MT course it would be this one, and bin all the others.

Cool, goes to show how vague (or practically non-existant) my recollection of the vocabulary course is. Why? I think I was beyond (in terms of my French level) all of the levels when I did them, so there was very few re-runs and minimal lingering while proceeding through the material. Still, I have a generally good impression of the rest of the MT French titles, so I’m not totally sure why I’m so vague on the vocab one. It was still wirth me completing all levels though, as I found it good for activation and creating some degree of spontaneity via the ‘drills’ for want of a better word. I found the Masterclass level to be a oarticularly good quick overview of straightforward French.

Ani, from an old thread on HTLAL, the Alaric Hall Icelandic course you mentioned seems to get positive feedback, for those familiar with it. I’m sure you know this however.

[Ani]

Ani, from an old thread on HTLAL, the Alaric Hall Icelandic course you mentioned seems to get positive feedback, for those familiar with it. I’m sure you know this however.

Yup I started it last week, which is what is inspiring this line of thinking It IS pretty good, although the students mess up so much that if it were my only learning channel I would be confused out of my mind. Since I am coupling it with a few other Icelandic resources and I'm a little advanced of the students, it is working well.

I found the transcripts you mentioned online on the MT site, which is great. Gave me a good peek at the grammar contained in each section.

[PeterMollenburg]

Update

Daily French study
I’m struggling often to do some decent lengthy study periods due restrictions on time. However, more often than not I’m doing quite well at getting a good amount daily French done despite restrictions. There are more restrictions to come later this month.

Super Challenge
Since the start of the SC, I’ve been definitely doing more reading and watching than usual. My reading speed is increasing. And my listening skills are improving. Yet, both of these improvememts are very very gradual, and still they are very far from excellent/advanced/near-native/completely at ease. Moreover, the improvement doesn’t stem from this SC, but years of daily French. Disappointingly for example, I tried a little of the audio book The Da Vinci Code a few days back of which I didn’t do too well at all. At C1/C2 this should be easy straight off the bat, but it definitely wasn’t....

Series and Books
The second series of Les Témoins (Witnesses), was enthralling and really drew me in, and better than the first series which was pretty good. The English subtitles didn’t bother me (couldn’t switch them off), and guided my listening this time round, which went rather well, as opposed to distracting me.

I just finished Les Messages Cachés de l’Eau by Masaru Emoto, a French translation from the Japanese or English version. A very good book for me in many ways. Language was straight forward, a good positive antidote to all the rather negative conspiracy content I’ve been involved in in recent years, scientific somewhat (although purists would perhaps disagree), but also spiritual (I used to read many a spiritual book until I decided much of it could be lies, not all). In short, a good dose of hope and positivity for humanity, which reveals there still remains much wonderous mystery in the world.

A few series and books to watch and read. I’ve just commenced Guyane (Ouro: Amazon Gold) on SBS Australia (thus ‘forced’ English subtitles). It appears promising. An area of the world I’m curious about, a change from the common settings of French language series. One episode in, we’ll see... Globalia has arrived (tnx iguanamon for the recommendation a while back), which is in the same vein as Orwell’s 1984. Also a detailed book on homeschooling, which I must read over the coming months, as my educational interactions with the children and time management at home could do with many new ideas and motivation if we are to make a success of homeschooling. Saudi still remains a distinct possibility...

Future Prospects
...On Saudi, we may know much more in a couple of days, post an interview. What will be will be, and if we head that way, despite not being overly keen on Arabic, we’d be silly and rude not to take advantage of the local environment, should we move there.

Still, I have many a reservation about introducing more languages. Some days I feel I could pass a C1 or C2 French exam, others I have strong doubts. If I pass in November, I’ll feel much better about introducing more languages. Yet it will also teach me that C1/C2 are far from perfect or even native. Pass or fail, November will bring many insights.

Learning Multiple Languages
rdearman’s, garyb’s and even systematiker’s musings reinforce my hesitations regarding studying multiple languages.... rdearman’s struggles with advancing in French and Italian, garyb’s statements on still not feeling completely at ease with languages he’s been studying/involved with for years, systematiker’s thoughts and finding time to manage multiple languages (maintenance, focused improvement, rust)... all it indicates to me, be VERY CAREFUL about how much you take on, there’s only time for so much, how much time do you have or want to grant to languages? If you juggle multiple languages, are you clear what this means for your advancement? Don’t be greedy, be wary of wanderlust, be realistic.... I need a result, any result in November to know exactly where I stand. I am still continually astounded at how much time I have out into ONE language and even if I can pass a C-level exam, to be completely at ease in a language, I feel, that some serious immersion would help incredibly. There’s sooooo much I still don’t know! If you’re reading this and you are a beginning language learner wanting to introduce more languages, my advice is don’t, not until you have first attained the desired level in your first L2. Unless, like Expugnator, you know exactly what you’re doing and are entirely conscious of the fact it will take many many years before you potentially reach advanced levels in multiple languages. That takes an incredible amount of self discipline and insight. Don’t be naïve, if you’ve not reached an advanced level in any foreign language yet, it is highly probable you do NOT understand what is ahead of you.

Raising Multilingual Children
I’ve been reading a lot about multilingual children, and found a very good digital magazine on the topic from ~ten years ago, no longer published, which presents theories, experiences, advice etc of bilinguals, multilinguals and so on. Interesting stories about children rejecting the minority language, children learning three or four languages at once, mixing languages, raising children in a language that’s not your native language and so on. Very interesting:
Multilingual Living Magazine

My Multilingual Children - How Many Languages is Realistic and Fair?
Why? Well, it’s giving me some tips really on what I’m doing with French with regards to the children (no drastic or even small changes required, it seems I’m getting it right for the most part), and providing some answers to my wonderings on introducing more languages to the children and whether its advisable or even fair (is it selfish and would I be creating science experiments out of my children). I want to proceed carefully, informed and allow my children to be children.

My current conclusions are: Children learn languages best from their surroundings, from the natural environment. As an example, teaching a child Icelandic grammar is likely to fail and more likely to be a negative experience compared to living in Iceland, where the child has a natural need for the language, or having an Icelandic grandparent speak to the child in their native language only, which would also be a part of their natural interactions and a need. Responding in another language would diminish the likelihood of success by decreasing the need for the language (in this example Icelandic). The child will take the path of least resistance and respond in his/her most proficient language if the grandparent in this case were to respond to that language (English for example).

Reading to the child in Icelandic and presenting them with other sources of entertainment in the language such as television without much speaking interaction won’t produce native like little Icelandic speakers, but certainly provide passive knowledge- to what extent will depend a lot on the amount of time exposed to the language. Too little time could lead to frustration and a possible train wreck. Again without the need to speak, the child’s likelihood for being able to soeak Icelandic would be very slim, but passive understanding is still a decent accomplishment.

Where the younger age of exposure to foreign languages matters is of particular importance, is in the domain of pronunciation. The younger, the better for distinguishing between the varied phonemes of foreign languages and being able to mimick them if speech is attempted. So....

Outlines if Raising my Children with Familiarity of Various Languages
•I want to introduce more foreign languages to my children sooner rather than later, but not before I am comfortable that my own French level will not be threatened with deterioration or advancement that is far too slow for my liking.
•I want to introduce them to these languages via stories/reading and perhaps a little TV.
•My pronunciation must be native-like while using these languages with the children. Grammar won’t matter, since reading books will contain correct grammar constructs.
•I can’t expect the children to match their levels of English nor French in newer languages or even come remotely close without language Y or Z being considerably present in the ‘environment’ for extended periods of time and a crucial need for that/those language(s) being present as well.
•The passive understanding of languages I might be able to provide the children with could in theory be brought to more active use, if we move location to where that/those language(s) are spoken or seriously alter the environmental conditions and need for the language(s) otherwise (eg a bilingual school).
•French interaction mustn’t decrease or at least not significantly from current levels, which are around the lower end of the scale for succes in raising children bilingually, otherwise introducing more languages will potentially serious damage French progress.
•To introduce more languages to the children, I need more time with them. Therefore, remaining in Australia I am likely not going to be able to do this, and will need to seriously analyse available time, natural play time and other things to even know if even one more language is possible.
•Moving to Saudi is likely to mean I become a stay at home dad. This will mean it’s more plausible.
•Still, I don’t won’t my children to be essentially experiencing a military-like regiment of languages around the clock. It needs to be enjoyable for them, and for the most part a seemless experience of learning through stories in various languages- languages which may become more relevant and thus active depending on future movements.
•It will benefit me too. Languages dormant, decaying or that never really got up and running could in theory ever so gradually improve through reading while the children’s abilities would improve similtaneously.
•If in a foreign location the relevant local language should take more of an active role in the family’s attempt to use it actively.

[Ani]

Keep in mind that your older child may be exceptional in her language acquisition, and your younger may need even more French exposure. I think a third language coming from a community is great, but a parent (especially a father, tbh) as the source of two minority languages just seems like such a risky idea. Families go through crises, big and small. It's important to have room to cut back and know where you'll cut back in advance. Multilingual story book basket sounds like great fun. True third language without extensive support sounds like a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.

Also, being a balanced trilingual must be terribly hard. Think of how hard it is going to be just to maintain the language arts curriculum for French and English for the school years. That's hours a day... Like hours and hours. My language arts target is 4 hours a day per kid just for English. I could see cutting back to 2.5 per language, but really I'm not sure about less. And there are other subjects to be done

[PeterMollenburg]

Keep in mind that your older child may be exceptional in her language acquisition, and your younger may need even more French exposure. I think a third language coming from a community is great, but a parent (especially a father, tbh) as the source of two minority languages just seems like such a risky idea. Families go through crises, big and small. It's important to have room to cut back and know where you'll cut back in advance. Multilingual story book basket sounds like great fun. True third language without extensive support sounds like a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.

Also, being a balanced trilingual must be terribly hard. Think of how hard it is going to be just to maintain the language arts curriculum for French and English for the school years. That's hours a day... Like hours and hours. My language arts target is 4 hours a day per kid just for English. I could see cutting back to 2.5 per language, but really I'm not sure about less. And there are other subjects to be done

I agree with your sentiments, Ani, and this is why I’m ‘researching’ and want to approach this very carefully. The idea is that French and English are to remain the main languages. That is they will be (and have been) the functional languages in which daily discussions, teaching, living takes place. I don’t believe it’s within my abilities to be able to introduce a third functional language, after pondering this for a while. No other language of mine is currently beyond B2. If I wanted to speak to them in another language and have them speak back to me in that language (same approach as French), I’d have to study hard for a couple of years I think, then introduce that language and no more.

No, given I don’t want to do that, and I think it could backfire and leave our family life with too many complicated drawbacks, I think passive exposure, without high expectations would be better, and help with pronunciation via early exposure, should any of the languages play a bigger role down the track.

So, the idea is I’ll be reading in other languages to my children so they gain some exposure and understanding of those languages. Then if we happen to be in a country where they are spoken, more emphasis on production, since as I’ve come to understand, children learn languages best from their surroundings, will take place.

With such a plan I see a few positives:
• If the children hate it, I can stop without a great loss.
• If life has unexpected things pop up that require me to cut back or stop, I can, no harm.
• There’d be no expectations placed upon their foreign language level (unless of course it became part of an educational curriculum).
• It doesn’t matter if I’m crap at the languages, as long as I can read stories to them with near native pronunciation, that’s all I need. And I’m confident with this, as I know my Dutch and Spanish pronunciation is very decent, as I took it as seriously as French pronunciation when I studied them in the past (but found them easier). German, same, but I’ll need more of a brush up there, as it’s my weakest language by far. I wouldn’t attempt any other languages I’m not very sure of about pronunciation, so that’s likely to be it.

Edit:
I agree, she might be gifted, but I highly doubt this is why she’s using French well today. She appears intelligent yes, but that’s not what I mean. I mean, with the second language used continuously with no room for the child responding in the majority language, there’s no reason why a minority language can’t be learned by a child. It’s a matter of having clear practises and boundaries in place. Just as any child (save those with serious neuroligical incapacities) can learn their first language, any child can become bi- and even trilingual, with great enough exposure and need. I know you’re not stating you disagree with this necessarily either, and I do understand you point.

There are differences in intellect yes, and attitude towards second and third languages from children. My daughter tried to reject French at times and take the (understandable) easier (English responses) path. And I’ve read about parents afraid of hurting the relationship with their child when rejection of the minority language occurs. This is where clear boundaries matter.

Allowing a child to reply in English (or whatever the majority) language sometimes when you speak to them in the minority language, but yet still expect them to use the minority language predominantly is unfair and confusing for the child. I’ve read of parents both ‘giving up’ (and thus reverting back to Englishor whatever the majority language only) worried about their relationship, and others persisting with clearer stronger boundaries post such rejection. Both are happy with the outcome, but the latter followed with success from any anecdotes I’ve read (and my personal experience) demonstrates my earlier point, that any child (except a few very exceptional circumstances) can acquire minority languages with the enough exposure/use and sufficient need (clear boundaries).

Of course, my second child could pose problems for my first if he rejects French very strongly. He could help her with more enthusiasm. Who knows, but yes, it’s a delicate path and a lot of continual effort.

[Ani]

I mean, with the second language used continuously with no room for the child responding in the majority language, there’s no reason why a minority language can’t be learned by a child.

No offense meant, but there are some things about children that are very hard to learn when you're the parent of only one or two. It's natural to think x behavior or expectation results in y outcome, but when folks say "kids are all different" they mean it -- in a really profound way.

I really think you're doing well and it's extremely likely that things will continue to go just as well. Your younger child will have your older as a model, which makes life a million times easier.

I'm interested to hear about the homeschooling book you are reading. Is it in French?

[PeterMollenburg]

I mean, with the second language used continuously with no room for the child responding in the majority language, there’s no reason why a minority language can’t be learned by a child.

No offense meant, but there are some things about children that are very hard to learn when you're the parent of only one or two. It's natural to think x behavior or expectation results in y outcome, but when folks say "kids are all different" they mean it -- in a really profound way.

I really think you're doing well and it's extremely likely that things will continue to go just as well. Your younger child will have your older as a model, which makes life a million times easier.

I'm interested to hear about the homeschooling book you are reading. Is it in French?

Thanks Ani, I appreciate your feedback as I’m certain you know a heck of a lot about children with regards to their needs and their development and learning, and I certainly respect that.

I’ve bought two French books recently with regards to children’s learning. I’ve only flicked through the first, which contains an overview of many different approaches to learning and provides you with activity suggestions for each one:
Le Grand Guide des Pédagogies Alternatives

The second was the homeschooling book I’ve mentioned, which I’ve not taken the time to look at yet:
L’École à la Maison, le Guide
I’ll likely provide a review of this book in the homeschoolers thread once I’ve read it.

[Ani]

Those both sound great! Can't wait to hear what you think. I bet they'll have tons of useful vocabulary and constructions as well as just being helpful.

[jeffers]

The second was the homeschooling book I’ve mentioned, which I’ve not taken the time to look at yet:
L’École à la Maison, le Guide
I’ll likely provide a review of this book in the homeschoolers thread once I’ve read it.

Those seem like just the sort of thing you should be reading in preparation for the C1. Native material on "professional" topics of interest to you.


I've not paid close attention to your log as I haven't been on the forum for a while. What podcasts are you listening to?

[PeterMollenburg]

The second was the homeschooling book I’ve mentioned, which I’ve not taken the time to look at yet:
L’École à la Maison, le Guide
I’ll likely provide a review of this book in the homeschoolers thread once I’ve read it.

Those seem like just the sort of thing you should be reading in preparation for the C1. Native material on "professional" topics of interest to you.


I've not paid close attention to your log as I haven't been on the forum for a while. What podcasts are you listening to?

Hey Jeffers,

As per usual Journal en français facile is a frequent part of my podcast listening. The news-speak and diplomatic style language utilised is full of expressions relevant for my level despite the title, and still probably contains much more to learn at my level in prep for a C-level exam compared to the podcasts below (the non-news ones) being of a more casual discussion style.

On the rare occasion I'll listen to NHK World - French, basically an alternative (out of Japan) for French news.

The other day I happened to listen to TF1's midday news podcast, but can't recall the name of it and don't have my mobile phone handy currently to be able to share that one at the minute.

Au coeur de l'histoire from time to time, with interesting discussions of events throughout history.

Grande bien vous fasse I've just recently started listening to, as it covers some interesting health topics. Recently I listened to one for example on the benefits of music for one's learning in general (in particular in relation to children), another on various forms of sugar in our food, and another on the benefits of spending time among trees.

The last two podcasts were recommended to me by other forum members. If anyone else out there would like to make some suggestions, go ahead. I may or may not take an interest, but no harm in suggesting if you so please.

There is also another RFI podcast I'm yet to return to. I'm sure it will be painful. Some months ago (many in fact) I tried this podcast and with the guests/host(s) speaking altogether and discussing events with various jokes interjected, much (nearly all) of it went over my head. Again, my mobile isn't with me, but thinking I need to vary my listening more lately (variety of podcasts and less repetition), I will try this podcast again, whatever it was called. Hopefully in a few months I'll feel more confident with such content, but it wasn't a great experience last time, so i'll likely step back into it with feelings of angst as the rapid discussions fly over my head once more.

I hope your French studies are going well Jeffers!

Side note:
Had a great French conversation today about conspiracies and the like! I've unexpectedly found someone (with whom I cross paths with semi-regularly), who is on my wavelength and fully capable of chatting away with me in French and actually initiated the discussion in French with me. It's so nice to be 'poised' in a language ready to pounce on such an opportune moment with French flowing like champagne at the end of an F1 Grand Prix (okay a couple of tiny workarounds to avoid using English when I couldn't find the right French word/expression). Yes I speak a lot to my daughter, and I really value that, but that's not the same as another adult. Bonus: I didn't freak them out, they are just as into (for want of a better word) global conspiracies as I am.