Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
User avatar
Xenops
Brown Belt
Posts: 1444
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: Boston
Languages: English (N), Danish (A2), Japanese (rusty), Nansha (constructing)
On break: Japanese (approx. N4), Norwegian (A2)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16797
x 3559
Contact:

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby Xenops » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:34 am

I tend to think (optimistically) that everyone has a talent, but everyone can't be good at the same things, even with hard work. You just might have an easier time with pronunciation.

I'm curious as to what research you have found that told you the working conditions of nurses in various countries? I imagine the conditions are similar for other health professions.
1 x
Check out my comic at: https://atannan.com/

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:57 am

Xenops wrote:I tend to think (optimistically) that everyone has a talent, but everyone can't be good at the same things, even with hard work. You just might have an easier time with pronunciation.

I'm curious as to what research you have found that told you the working conditions of nurses in various countries? I imagine the conditions are similar for other health professions.


Thanks for stopping by Xenops. I take on board your opinion with regards to talent/pronunciation, but I'm not going to argue for or against it, as in the end I just don't know. Your opinion seems equally valid.

As for working conditions. Now and then I will go off on little internet adventures in search of 1.the process to integrate into foreign countries with regards to nursing. 2. read English speaking forums with anecdotal evidence of English speaking expats attempting to integrate into foreign nursing systems (used to read these more than I do now). 3 French speaking forums or articles with comments attached in which French nurses describe their working conditions in relation to other (usually Francophone) regions of the world.

In search for number 1's the other day, simply as I was curious again, I sidetracked myself with a number of number 3s- one article I read and kept the link to which was somewhat interesting given my situation but of which I found the anecdotal evidence much more telling (as usual) below the main article and spent a good amount of time reading all of the comments from French nurses who had nursed outside of France. I think such comments provide much more insight than a nicely presented article.

These are the latest 2 articles I read (the comments in the 2nd link were the ones I was referring to). Of course I don't base my total opinion on these articles alone, as I've read much more in the past on such things and have slowly gathered a 'sense' of what it appears to be like in these Francophone countries for nursing. I'm also yet to read all the comments following the first article. Oh and just for the record in the past I have done a good amount of reading on comparison of salaries and cost of living and the like. I think it's hard to surpass Luxembourg and Switzerland is my conclusion, but you are better off crossing the border each day to take full advantage of the situation. If this seems like pinching every penny, well given the fact these countries are well paid in general across all professions (strong banking sector in Luxembourg for ex. drives up average wage perhaps), nurses still earn low wages in these places by comparison to other professions, and the cost of living is high, thus, best to cross the border is my rough conclusion from a very distant large island in the southern hemisphere.

http://www.installation-infirmiere.fr/index.php/modes-d-exercice/49-etre-infirmiere-en-belgique

http://www.albus.fr/logiciel_infirmiere/sesam_vitale_infirmier/2015/07/des-infirmiers-francais-en-partance-pour-des-pays-etrangers/

Edit: Now i've read all the comments below the first article, which weren't as enlightening as the second. They do however help me form the idea that 1. as per usual integration into foreign nursing systems is complicated with much red tape. 2. Nursing in Belgium is possibly no better than France (financially or work load). The main thing that interests me with Belgium is the fact that Dutch (or Flemish to be correct) is spoken by around 60% of the country's population, and it's a language I have a burning desire to return to studying in the near future, also the nursing integration exams are supposedly easier for Belgium compared to France.
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:46 am

With regards to my study routine, i've realised a couple of things. Firstly I'm easily going to make the target of 100 films for the Super Challenge. Thus i've opted to remove 'watching' from my committed desk study time, as in theory I should be able to make it to 100 'films' by watching sufficient amounts of TV outside of my committed desk study time and free that up for other activities which I don't do enough: reading mainly.

So my TV watching outside of study time will be a mixture of French news as that has worked well for me and kept me in touch with current affairs in France and beyond (i don't watch my own country's news, so it doesn't hurt to watch this), and the chosen series I'm still going with is Sex and the City, which I haven't done much with lately, but am not too concerned. Thus I believe there's enough watching in my weekly activities to not be concerned.

Where I've re-booted my Super Challenge quickly surpassing the expected 100 films by the end, i'm still well behind on reading despite picking up my game. There again it will be of benefit to trim my desk activities down somewhat.

My routine is as follows:

-----------
Par roulement :
-----------
Des cours :
Un cours difficile :
• Assimil Using French
Un cours facile :
• Pimsleur French 5
----------------------
Le français intensif :
La lecture intensive :
• Bien-dire
• Think French
Écouter / Regarder :
• Yabla
Écouter :
• RFI Journal en français facile
----------------------
La lecture extensive :
Un livre en français facile :
• Easy French Reader
Un livre plus difficile :
• Le Régime Cétogène contre...
----------------------------------

Again the idea is 3 hours of rotation. Each hour consists of the first 15 min dedicated to SRS.

So I have an hour (well 45 min really) for courses, 45 min for extensive reading and 45 min in the middle for intensive activities, whatever they may be.

I'm also not concerned with listening as now my commutes to work contain no courses, as I reached the end of Pimsleur French 5 and instead of reviewing it again during commutes, I decided I might review it and add SRS cards during my course study hours, but for the moment am focused on reaching the end of Assimil Using French, so I don't care if I never do that. So to and from work it's native French listening time.

So I'm still doing courses, but increasing my reading, and doing some other intensive activities (of which there's a few to choose from).

Speaking is the major thing missing, but as I said, I will definitely pick this up down the track. I do speak out loud when reading, speak to my daughter only in French, but I'm not currently doing any conversational sessions with native speakers.

On and upwards.

Fry a fry, like for real
4 x

DaveBee
Blue Belt
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native). French (studying).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
x 1386

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby DaveBee » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:56 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:So my TV watching outside of study time will be a mixture of French news as that has worked well for me and kept me in touch with current affairs in France and beyond (i don't watch my own country's news, so it doesn't hurt to watch this), and the chosen series I'm still going with is Sex and the City, which I haven't done much with lately, but am not too concerned. Thus I believe there's enough watching in my weekly activities to not be concerned.
I've come across a french sit-com called 'Fais pas ci, fais pas ça' that I quite like. (I don't understand a lot of the dialogue though! :-))
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:31 am

DaveBee wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:So my TV watching outside of study time will be a mixture of French news as that has worked well for me and kept me in touch with current affairs in France and beyond (i don't watch my own country's news, so it doesn't hurt to watch this), and the chosen series I'm still going with is Sex and the City, which I haven't done much with lately, but am not too concerned. Thus I believe there's enough watching in my weekly activities to not be concerned.
I've come across a french sit-com called 'Fais pas ci, fais pas ça' that I quite like. (I don't understand a lot of the dialogue though! :-))


Thanks Davebee,

I have seen this sitcom mentioned a few times and it seems to be reported as worth watching. Definitely a series to keep in mind, cheers.
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:59 pm

Xenops wrote:I'm curious as to what research you have found that told you the working conditions of nurses in various countries? I imagine the conditions are similar for other health professions.


Another interesting article (in English) comparing various countries with regards to nursing conditions:
https://news.euspert.com/best-nurse-jobs-best-countries-nurses-work/
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:13 am

Slight dilemma:

When to begin studying my next language:
The sooner I start studying my next chosen language (while continuing with French) the quicker I will reach a decent level in that next language.

Which language:
German would theoretically very much open doors in Switzerland, Luxembourg (stiff competition, maybe wouldn't get qualifications recognised there) and ever so slightly help for Belgium.

Dutch like German for Switzerland would help for Belgium. And like German for Switzerland, Dutch is a majority language for the country. Still I am aiming for Francophone regions, but a smattering of another language would be nice.

Considering I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, I think it makes sense to aim for Dutch, and it's the language i'm more interested in currently.

Dutch doesn't open as many doors on a grander scale than German, and the wages in Belgium are not as good as Switzerland.

I guess i'm just talking out loud. Once again I feel like Dutch is what I should go with, mainly because that is what I'm motivated to do. Still any one with a different opinion is totally welcome to say something if you feel like it.

When do I start that next language?
Maybe I will introduce Dutch sooner rather than later. I'd really like to open up job opportunities in Belgium by increasing my skills in Dutch aka Flemish, but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.

Any thoughts anyone? keep going with French for another 12months/24months or introduce Dutch much sooner and balance between the 2 languages? I'm afraid of ruining my French. I really want to master it and don't want any other language to hurt that mission. If only I was already much more accomplished in French already... ah, first world problems. Don't I love creating imaginary dilemmas?

Disclaimer: please if you want to comment, do so, but I must say given my track record/pig headedness I"m likely to still do what I want despite logic.
2 x

rlnv
Orange Belt
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:07 pm
Languages: English
x 454

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby rlnv » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:02 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:Slight dilemma:

When to begin studying my next language:
The sooner I start studying my next chosen language (while continuing with French) the quicker I will reach a decent level in that next language.

Which language:
German would theoretically very much open doors in Switzerland, Luxembourg (stiff competition, maybe wouldn't get qualifications recognised there) and ever so slightly help for Belgium.

Dutch like German for Switzerland would help for Belgium. And like German for Switzerland, Dutch is a majority language for the country. Still I am aiming for Francophone regions, but a smattering of another language would be nice.

Considering I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, I think it makes sense to aim for Dutch, and it's the language i'm more interested in currently.

Dutch doesn't open as many doors on a grander scale than German, and the wages in Belgium are not as good as Switzerland.

I guess i'm just talking out loud. Once again I feel like Dutch is what I should go with, mainly because that is what I'm motivated to do. Still any one with a different opinion is totally welcome to say something if you feel like it.

When do I start that next language?
Maybe I will introduce Dutch sooner rather than later. I'd really like to open up job opportunities in Belgium by increasing my skills in Dutch aka Flemish, but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.

Any thoughts anyone? keep going with French for another 12months/24months or introduce Dutch much sooner and balance between the 2 languages? I'm afraid of ruining my French. I really want to master it and don't want any other language to hurt that mission. If only I was already much more accomplished in French already... ah, first world problems. Don't I love creating imaginary dilemmas?

Disclaimer: please if you want to comment, do so, but I must say given my track record/pig headedness I"m likely to still do what I want despite logic.


I think the motivation factor is one of the most important considerations. There was a thread where, I believe the most common sentiment expressed was desire before usefulness. With Dutch you have desire and usefulness, both. A one-two punch, a rope-a-dope, a chest full of tools giving you coverage of both the two official Belgium languages.

Perhaps you could start off with some causal Dutch study after you pass your French B2? You are still planning to sit that soon, right? In my humble opinion, juggling more than one language as a beginner is a bad choice, but you are far from being a beginner. And you are far from having a lack of motivation and commitment to numbero uno, French. So at whatever point you feel ready to introduce a second language, I'm sure you will succeed and keep the flame burning with French too.

Go for it!
1 x

DaveBee
Blue Belt
Posts: 952
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:49 pm
Location: UK
Languages: English (native). French (studying).
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=7466
x 1386

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby DaveBee » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:51 am

rlnv wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Slight dilemma:

When to begin studying my next language:
The sooner I start studying my next chosen language (while continuing with French) the quicker I will reach a decent level in that next language.

Which language:
German would theoretically very much open doors in Switzerland, Luxembourg (stiff competition, maybe wouldn't get qualifications recognised there) and ever so slightly help for Belgium.

Dutch like German for Switzerland would help for Belgium. And like German for Switzerland, Dutch is a majority language for the country. Still I am aiming for Francophone regions, but a smattering of another language would be nice.

Considering I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, I think it makes sense to aim for Dutch, and it's the language i'm more interested in currently.

Dutch doesn't open as many doors on a grander scale than German, and the wages in Belgium are not as good as Switzerland.

I guess i'm just talking out loud. Once again I feel like Dutch is what I should go with, mainly because that is what I'm motivated to do. Still any one with a different opinion is totally welcome to say something if you feel like it.

When do I start that next language?
Maybe I will introduce Dutch sooner rather than later. I'd really like to open up job opportunities in Belgium by increasing my skills in Dutch aka Flemish, but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.

Any thoughts anyone? keep going with French for another 12months/24months or introduce Dutch much sooner and balance between the 2 languages? I'm afraid of ruining my French. I really want to master it and don't want any other language to hurt that mission. If only I was already much more accomplished in French already... ah, first world problems. Don't I love creating imaginary dilemmas?

Disclaimer: please if you want to comment, do so, but I must say given my track record/pig headedness I"m likely to still do what I want despite logic.


I think the motivation factor is one of the most important considerations. There was a thread where, I believe the most common sentiment expressed was desire before usefulness. With Dutch you have desire and usefulness, both. A one-two punch, a rope-a-dope, a chest full of tools giving you coverage of both the two official Belgium languages.
Plus isn't Dutch supposed to be the closest relative of English? Presumably you could be up and running in Dutch much faster than German.

(With Switzerland the situation seems to be further complicated by several different varieties of German. Standard-german for written communication, dialect Swiss-german for speech. That said, German of course opens up Germany and Austria too.)
but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.
I have a lot of sympathy with that notion. Perhaps see how your B2 exam goes, and then consider how much work you feel would be needed for the C1. You might think you're already there if you ace your B2.
1 x

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: PM's log: Consistent French, Inconsistent Declarations

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:38 am

rlnv wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Slight dilemma:

When to begin studying my next language:
The sooner I start studying my next chosen language (while continuing with French) the quicker I will reach a decent level in that next language.

Which language:
German would theoretically very much open doors in Switzerland, Luxembourg (stiff competition, maybe wouldn't get qualifications recognised there) and ever so slightly help for Belgium.

Dutch like German for Switzerland would help for Belgium. And like German for Switzerland, Dutch is a majority language for the country. Still I am aiming for Francophone regions, but a smattering of another language would be nice.

Considering I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, I think it makes sense to aim for Dutch, and it's the language i'm more interested in currently.

Dutch doesn't open as many doors on a grander scale than German, and the wages in Belgium are not as good as Switzerland.

I guess i'm just talking out loud. Once again I feel like Dutch is what I should go with, mainly because that is what I'm motivated to do. Still any one with a different opinion is totally welcome to say something if you feel like it.

When do I start that next language?
Maybe I will introduce Dutch sooner rather than later. I'd really like to open up job opportunities in Belgium by increasing my skills in Dutch aka Flemish, but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.

Any thoughts anyone? keep going with French for another 12months/24months or introduce Dutch much sooner and balance between the 2 languages? I'm afraid of ruining my French. I really want to master it and don't want any other language to hurt that mission. If only I was already much more accomplished in French already... ah, first world problems. Don't I love creating imaginary dilemmas?

Disclaimer: please if you want to comment, do so, but I must say given my track record/pig headedness I"m likely to still do what I want despite logic.


I think the motivation factor is one of the most important considerations. There was a thread where, I believe the most common sentiment expressed was desire before usefulness. With Dutch you have desire and usefulness, both. A one-two punch, a rope-a-dope, a chest full of tools giving you coverage of both the two official Belgium languages.

Perhaps you could start off with some causal Dutch study after you pass your French B2? You are still planning to sit that soon, right? In my humble opinion, juggling more than one language as a beginner is a bad choice, but you are far from being a beginner. And you are far from having a lack of motivation and commitment to numbero uno, French. So at whatever point you feel ready to introduce a second language, I'm sure you will succeed and keep the flame burning with French too.

Go for it!


Thanks Ron,

I think you're making a lot of sense, I can't argue with your logic. And yeah, I'm planning on sitting the B2 in 6 months which is the next possible date (May 2017), which could see me pass without much of an issue I believe, but you never know. The one thing I'll need to step up majorly in the new year will be some conversational practise with tutors and conversational partners etc to really bring my comfort with speaking with natives up to a quietly confident level in prep for exam.

---------------------------------------

DaveBee wrote:
rlnv wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:Slight dilemma:

When to begin studying my next language:
The sooner I start studying my next chosen language (while continuing with French) the quicker I will reach a decent level in that next language.

Which language:
German would theoretically very much open doors in Switzerland, Luxembourg (stiff competition, maybe wouldn't get qualifications recognised there) and ever so slightly help for Belgium.

Dutch like German for Switzerland would help for Belgium. And like German for Switzerland, Dutch is a majority language for the country. Still I am aiming for Francophone regions, but a smattering of another language would be nice.

Considering I've spent a lot of time in the Netherlands, I think it makes sense to aim for Dutch, and it's the language i'm more interested in currently.

Dutch doesn't open as many doors on a grander scale than German, and the wages in Belgium are not as good as Switzerland.

I guess i'm just talking out loud. Once again I feel like Dutch is what I should go with, mainly because that is what I'm motivated to do. Still any one with a different opinion is totally welcome to say something if you feel like it.

When do I start that next language?
Maybe I will introduce Dutch sooner rather than later. I'd really like to open up job opportunities in Belgium by increasing my skills in Dutch aka Flemish, but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.

Any thoughts anyone? keep going with French for another 12months/24months or introduce Dutch much sooner and balance between the 2 languages? I'm afraid of ruining my French. I really want to master it and don't want any other language to hurt that mission. If only I was already much more accomplished in French already... ah, first world problems. Don't I love creating imaginary dilemmas?

Disclaimer: please if you want to comment, do so, but I must say given my track record/pig headedness I"m likely to still do what I want despite logic.


I think the motivation factor is one of the most important considerations. There was a thread where, I believe the most common sentiment expressed was desire before usefulness. With Dutch you have desire and usefulness, both. A one-two punch, a rope-a-dope, a chest full of tools giving you coverage of both the two official Belgium languages.
Plus isn't Dutch supposed to be the closest relative of English? Presumably you could be up and running in Dutch much faster than German.

(With Switzerland the situation seems to be further complicated by several different varieties of German. Standard-german for written communication, dialect Swiss-german for speech. That said, German of course opens up Germany and Austria too.)
but at the same time I've always said I ought to pass a C1/C2 exam in French before introducing any other language.
I have a lot of sympathy with that notion. Perhaps see how your B2 exam goes, and then consider how much work you feel would be needed for the C1. You might think you're already there if you ace your B2.


Frisian is supposedly the closest language to English, which is situated, linguistically between Dutch and English. But for bigger languages Dutch is indeed the closest to English.

I also have some background in both languages. German was the first language I ever attempted to learn via school, which didn't last long as I moved schools a few months later. Still the desire stayed with me and many years later I tried my hand at German again, making my way through some extremely basic courses and then later again around 2/3 through Hugo German in 3 months. Thus, my attained level was perhaps A1.

Dutch was a more serious affair, one in which I even spent considerable time (just shy of 6 months) in the Netherlands in 2011 with my wife. We both studied hard to bring our Dutch up to scratch (like 600 hours). Thus I have a strong background in Dutch of a B1 level I believe. I attempted to start Dutch again a year or two back (lost track of when it was) and decided I had not progressed enough with French yet so put it aside again, arguing for a more sensible approach.

Dutch really does seem like the logical choice. I'm very keen to get into it, but very keen to not finish a job half done with regards to my French. When I say 'finish', well yes language learning is life long and I will always be learning French I believe, but I have strong sentiments that I ought not introduce another language until I can pass a C1 or C2 exam.

I'm talking out loud here, and not arguing in contrast with anything you've mentioned Davebee. I think both yourself and Ron offer very sound advice- sit the B2 and see where i'm at.

So, I shall study very wisely and thoroughly for 6 months straight, sit the exam and re-evaluate.

;)
1 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kraut and 2 guests