Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[PeterMollenburg]

I've been reading some old threads from HTLAL and I've just been reading emk's The Cheating & Consolidating Method http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=39069&PN=0&TPN=1.

Emk mentions that he did around 400 hours of reading taking him from struggling with a pretty straightforward text to comprehending the vast majority of almost any written content (within reason of course). A similar mission for me, were I to do 2 hours of extensive reading a day, would equate to close to around seven months work. It seems he started at a beginner's stage, and seems to have ended up at B2-ish after the hours put in. My situation is different and I've arrived at B2 using a very different approach.

Given all attempts to sit (and pass) C2 thus far have not been successful and that my intuition is telling me to go for long stretches of study focusing on one area, I'm going to start with reading. I've already been doing more than usual, so I'll keep that up.

In fact, I keep chopping and changing my study plan. The only thing I'm not and have not changed is doing 20 minutes of vocabulary study via intensive reading and word lists from Bien-dire at the start of each hour of learning. I'll continue this as I'm motivated to do so and it beats doing SRS. I was worried I wasn't focusing on listening... and then reading... then I considered writing and interpreting/translation and so while I said to myself I'd focus on one activity I ended up adding them all back in. However, emk's thread convinced me to strip it down again. It's not like reading more every day means I'll never listen or write. Those activities will happen anyway as I have commutes where I certainly can't read and I'll move onto focused writing again later.

I finished reading the 100 Year Old Man Who Climbed Out the Window and Disappeared after reading about it in iguanamon's thread. I still don't feel at ease enough with unknown vocabulary. I can't expect to know everything but there's room for improvement. I also asked iguanamon once upon a time, which activity he'd recommend I do more were I to go with one to put more time into, to which he responded "reading". I've since moved onto the follow on book by Jonas Jonasson - The Accidental Further Adventures of the Hundred-Year-Old-Man.

While my enthusiasm for the first book dropped off towards the end and I felt like reading something different, I figured continuing with the same author might be a wise step given my novice level of extensive reading experience. So far the book is like a continuation of the first pretty much but entertaining enough to make me want to return to read more. I've got my hands on the other books Jonas Jonasson has written as well. Whether I'll stick to his books after this one, we'll see.

I've also decided to take the pressure off a little with the C2 exam, not because I want to avoid it, but because I need to put in some hard yards in reading of several months and then I'll do the hard yards with listening and after that writing. So I can't see passing any C2 this October. Who knows, maybe I'll sit it anyway but keep going with my unplanned plan. Another unplanned planned approach I'm trying to kind of do (after I've just discussed my plans) is that if I change my mind and return to another routine, I don't care, because I think the main message here is that I just need to put in plenty of hard work consistently for a good while if I want results.

It seems I was able to reach B2 really rather well with hard work via courses and some other methods. However, when it comes to reaching C2, it's been a combination of really not knowing what I was doing, interruptions, motivational setbacks, changing languages, wrongly chosen content, stepping back and so on. It's taken a lot to get my stubborn self out of course land, and refocused with a different approach and to be ready for that mission. I think this epic long saga of trying to reach C2 has been worthwhile even if it takes a while longer yet as I'll be much more efficient in transitioning through the different stages of learning a language (course land through to loads of native content) next time around. Currently I feel like that will be Dutch, my next strongest language, but I'm likely to change my mind. Russian has been tagged onto the bottom of my wishlist of late. Anyway.... must sleep.

[rdearman]

Peter, you're far ahead of me in French, so take this with a large dose of salt. But if you're going on a reading mission, I think you should adopt a distributed approach to reading. What I mean is read using two different resources at the same time. Different books.

I recommend you get yourself one physical paperback/hardback book in French. Using this book, you read X number of pages extensively (call it 24 pages) and restrict yourself to only being allowed to look up 1 word in a dictionary per page. The rest you must figure out from context. Then page 25-29 you read intensively, you look up every single word you're even a tiny bit unsure of and add them to your vocabulary studies.

At the same time get yourself an electronic book, kindle, kobo, whatever and read that extensively, but look up anything you want, since lookups are a lot faster and easier than on a physical book. But don't add these words to your vocabulary studies.

I also wouldn't worry about reading for pleasure. You should be reading for vocabulary, not pleasure. So find books with modern slang, find books with historical words (scribe, inkwell, etc.)

I would also recommend you set a target for page count of reading. In my little French challenge, I was averaging a speed of 2.5 pages per minute in French (depending on the book). Which looking back at my old log on HTLAL was a real improvement because back then I was averaging about 1 page every 4-5 minutes! Anyway, my point is to set yourself a target of 500 pages per week or something which is a stretch goal for you. If you are doing 2.5 pages per minute, then this is only three and half hours per week, so work out your reading speed and time available and do the maths.

BTW, there are 199 days between now (when I write this) and 1st of October. If you were reading 2.5 pages for 2 hours a day every day, you'd read 59,700 pages or approximately 295 books. That is more than 3 super challenges. With that amount of books and vocabulary under your belt you'd fly past a C-level exam.

[BeaP]

The one thing you surely don't lack is advice, but I can't help myself.
What do you want?
Pass the exam? Be a real C2? Both? In what order?
If the exam is the priority: why don't you train for the exam? I don't know the DALF in depth, but I've checked some sample tests, and I haven't found any literature, only magazine articles. Look for C2 coursebooks with key (or teacher's book) and DALF mock exam books. Ask: What kind of mistakes do I make? Why? How can I improve in these areas?
It takes 15 minutes on average to do a comprehension exercise in a coursebook, add the correction and the dictionary work, and it's 30.
The Bien-dire magazine is not meant for exam preparation, mock exam books are, coursebooks like Tendances, Défi, Édito should be. There's no C2 volume for these, but C1 is usually OK (that's my experience in other languages), it's basically the same vocabulary and topics, but at C2 you have to be quicker and more fluent. But these resources definitely show you where to turn, what to use in your preparation.
Analyse the test first. Ask: How can I pass this? What's the most important thing to do? What kind of texts do I have to be familiar with? What kind of texts do I need to produce? Read those kinds of texts, if possible with comprehension exercises. Don't assume comprehension.

[iguanamon]

Good decision, PM. I'm probably at B2 in Catalan now. You've probably noticed in my log that I've been reading a lot of noir/detective/pulp-fiction/crime novels in Catalan. These books are part of the "La Cua de Palla" collection in Catalan. They are almost all translated novels, from English; French; German. They're all fairly short- 150 - 250 pages- average is around 175 pages. The idea of the publishers was to encourage reading in Catalan during the dark days of the Franco regime when the Catalan language was repressed by giving readers something exciting and thrilling to read. The brevity helps to keep readers interested and moving forward.

The books, while dating from mid-early to mid-late 20th Century, contain lots of slang and dialog. They're perfect for me to both increase my vocabulary and gain colloquial language at the same time in a format that encourages me to maintain my momentum- which is half the battle. Remember my Woody Allen quote- "90% of life is just showing up".

Rdearman has given some good advice. It differs a bit from what I do in practice. You know I don't follow rigid structure in my approach. I read when I can and however much I can given my life circumstances at the time. I do set aside a time in the morning to dedicate to reading. I look up words when I can't figure them out in context or they're crucial to my understanding. I make notes of them and go over them periodically while I'm reading the book and review them all afterwards once or twice. That's it.

I read the "100 Year Old Man" and enjoyed it. I too felt the end dragged a bit but it didn't take away from my enjoyment. This is more the kind of writing style I enjoy in non-fiction... so why I am reading trashy translated pulp-fiction novels from the 1950's and 1930's in Catalan translation? Well, they're not all trashy novels. The Dashiel Hammett novels are pure gold in the noir genre. His books are included on many lists of the greatest books of the 20th Century. Many were made into films- "The Maltese Falcon" and "The Thin Man" being the most well known.

Still, the trashy pulp fiction novels indeed serve their purpose. They keep me going with reading. The dialog, while in the original may not be so contemporary, is contemporary in translation. They teach me colloquial ways to express my thoughts. Have a look for books by French author Georges Simenon en français.

I'd also suggest reading "chick-lit". "Chick-lit" is a not so modern genre as it may appear. It started with Jane Austen over two hundred years ago. I would define "chick-lit" as female-centric storytelling involving romance with intelligent and strong heroines who, as we say nowadays, "kick ass and take names". The stories are entertaining. Except for Jane Austen, they're usually contemporary. They have loads of dialog, slang, and colloquial language. If I were to suggest one author to read in translation, it would be the chick-lit novels of Sophie Kinsella (British), or Meg Cabot (American).

Of course, even though you concentrate on reading, you don't give up listening, writing, speaking. One of things I found useful in helping me consolidate and leverage my reading was following classroom study/comprehension guides for students in Catalan. They had lots of questions about facts in the books and also asking for the students'thoughts about what they were reading. I wrote these out and read them aloud. You can also find books with audio on librivox.org- maybe read a chapter then listen to the same or the next chapter in the car or out and about... or read and listen simultaneously to the pace of the reader's voice. The free and legal "Le Comte de Monte-Cristo" would be a good one to give a go. I've read it in a few languages and thoroughly enjoyed it.

As BeaP says, it's one thing to pass the test... and another thing to actually be C2. In language-learning, each skill informs the other. Mastering reading helps with listening. Writing helps with speaking. Listening helps with reading and speaking... etc.

[Le Baron]

I also wouldn't worry about reading for pleasure. You should be reading for vocabulary, not pleasure. So find books with modern slang, find books with historical words (scribe, inkwell, etc.).

I'm interested in why you say this, I might even learn something. I'm not saying you're 'wrong', but I do disagree with it. Reading for pleasure is the best thing a learner can do; though 'for pleasure' should never mean not stretching yourself, or seeking out only so-called 'easy' books.

The very worst thing in reading is when you absolutely aren't having any fun reading the book. When it becomes too much like work. There's no forward momentum and no motivation to create any.

I have a high tolerance for unknown words and if they aren't stopping me from understanding what is going on I might note-down the word, but then not even bother looking it up. Often about 50-75% of the unknown words, in fiction especially, turn out to be words you wouldn't even likely know in your native language. The sort of thing that turns up in a literary novel in English that I might have to look up. The author probably looked them up too at the research stage. I consider these generally 'inessential' for learners at any level.

This is why I said in the other thread that books considered to be 'not literary' are wrongly assumed to be somewhat easier. Things like Sci-fi or heavily-researched novels following the Frederick Forsyth school of fiction are jam-packed with 'inessential' words which just slow you down.

[rdearman]

I also wouldn't worry about reading for pleasure. You should be reading for vocabulary, not pleasure. So find books with modern slang, find books with historical words (scribe, inkwell, etc.).

I'm interested in why you say this, I might even learn something. I'm not saying you're 'wrong', but I do disagree with it. Reading for pleasure is the best thing a learner can do; though 'for pleasure' should never mean not stretching yourself, or seeking out only so-called 'easy' books.

The very worst thing in reading is when you absolutely aren't having any fun reading the book. When it becomes too much like work. There's no forward momentum and no motivation to create any.

I have a high tolerance for unknown words and if they aren't stopping me from understanding what is going on I might note-down the word, but then not even bother looking it up. Often about 50-75% of the unknown words, in fiction especially, turn out to be words you wouldn't even likely know in your native language. The sort of thing that turns up in a literary novel in English that I might have to look up. The author probably looked them up too at the research stage. I consider these generally 'inessential' for learners at any level.

This is why I said in the other thread that books considered to be 'not literary' are wrongly assumed to be somewhat easier. Things like Sci-fi or heavily-researched novels following the Frederick Forsyth school of fiction are jam-packed with 'inessential' words which just slow you down.

I am basically suggesting quantity over quality. I have read a lot of books that were "meh" and moved on. If you hate it then fine, bin it. But no need to waste time looking for "books I'll love" just read anything you can get your hands on. If it turns out you love it great, if it was meh.. then you still learned vocabulary.

I was also trying to suggest a variety of books that contain different styles. Old books, modern books with slang, books about unusual topics, different genres like mystery or sci-fi or romance, historical dramas, etc.

[Le Baron]

I am basically suggesting quantity over quality. I have read a lot of books that were "meh" and moved on. If you hate it then fine, bin it. But no need to waste time looking for "books I'll love" just read anything you can get your hands on. If it turns out you love it great, if it was meh.. then you still learned vocabulary.

I was also trying to suggest a variety of books that contain different styles. Old books, modern books with slang, books about unusual topics, different genres like mystery or sci-fi or romance, historical dramas, etc.

Then it seems I am more in agreement than I imagined! I totally agree that searching for books to love beforehand is just an extra task that doesn't usually work anyway..recommendations and all that jazz.

[luke]

If Peter's going to exit the Matrix with C2, shouldn't his reading be focusing on things like newspapers, popular science, non-fiction for a mass audience, etc?

[PeterMollenburg]

There's some good food for thought here, questions, recommendations. Thanks guys.

Yes, I'll try to read wide, but I'll also read narrow at times, especially in the beginning to reinforce similar language (series, sequels, same author etc). I don't mind branching out into genres I wouldn't normally read for the purpose of vocabulary acquisition but all in all I just need to get reading and do a lot of it, so whatever works really. I've quite a few books here in paperback that I've not yet read. I've also a lot of digital books for my Kindle. Plenty to keep me occupied, plenty to branch out and plenty of content that I'm very interested in, so I'll just see where it all takes me. If I'm suffering, I'm not going to risk losing momentum, I'll ditch a really unenjoyable book unless I'm purely motivated by the vocabulary gains and keep reading for that reason.

I don't want to just pass the exam, I do actually want to be a 'real C2' and pass the exam.

In terms of looking up words and intensive vs extensive reading and digital vs paperbacks - I'm going to continue using Bien-dire because I'm motivated with this resource and I despise SRS systems of late, yet want to do some form of focused vocabulary acquisition (my own kind of SRS without resorting to programs like Anki). I like the word lists and that they're linked to articles which also have audio, and that the articles are graded as per CEFR. There's loads of unknown vocab for me and it's my method of intensive reading as well. I use the audio when I'm out in the kayak to help reinforce things too, although it's not perfect given the main focus in the kayaking, but it's better than not listening. While it's not specific to the exam, any vocabulary acquisition, especially CEFR graded (intermediate to advanced) is moving forward.

I have read about rdearman's approach before of reading with a paperback extensively then focusing for a bit on intensive reading from the same book. It sounds like a good personalised method that works, as is mine with Bien-dire for intensive vocab and then extensive via the books themselves for my interests/tastes/motivations. We all vary our methods a little for what seems to work specifically for ourselves. So I'll pass on the intensive reading with the actual books. The vocab from Bien-dire will repeat in the books, the synergy just might take a little longer. It's a good point made about look-ups in ebooks being not as much of a hinderance to flow given the built-in dictionaries.

I'm not going to count pages. I will monitor my study time, however. Counting pages I find tedious and problematic. Reading speed will be what it will be. I'm not going to rush to speed up and I've never been a fast reader anyway. I'm likely to get quicker indeed, that should be a given, but I don't want to analyse it.

So, I need to make this a measurable, achievable, specific goal. Pages? Nah, not counting. Books? Nah, don't want the pressure of having to read a specific amount. Months? Maybe. Hours? Maybe. A specific finish date? Maybe. I'll think about it. 400hours like emk? 500 sounds nicer. Maybe, but that's a very long stretch. We'll see.

Edit:
Oh yeah, I forgot. Yes, it's crucial that I begin reading and make a real effort with loads of newspapers, the type of content relevant to a C2 exam. I will get to this, and I'm not sure if that will be within this mission or after, but for now, extensive reading of books. I'm thinking 500 hours sounds good. My Bien-dire activities will not count towards these hours, nor will reading to the kids. 500 hours of extensive reading is 500 hours of extensive reading (for adults).

[luke]

I don't want to just pass the exam, I do actually want to be a 'real C2' and pass the exam.

I'm with Cavesa on this one. When you pass the test, ipso facto you are 'real C2'.