Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby reineke » Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:59 am

Peppa Pig certainly feels more advanced than "Rocket French."
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 am

Funny, PM, you're one of the very few on LLorg that I consider successful, and yet you receive the most advice. The rich get richer!
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby MamaPata » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:50 am

smallwhite wrote:Funny, PM, you're one of the very few on LLorg that I consider successful, and yet you receive the most advice. The rich get richer!


You've provided quite a lot of the advice. :lol:
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby garyb » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:55 am

Another series full of everyday language and just about watchable is "Fais pas ci, fais pas ça". It can even be found with French subtitles - unusual for a non-dubbed series - so could be a good choice for training listening. I'm not sure where to find it these days though; it used to be easy to watch on French Netflix using a proxy/VPN until they clamped down on these last year.
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby DaveBee » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:15 am

garyb wrote:Another series full of everyday language and just about watchable is "Fais pas ci, fais pas ça". It can even be found with French subtitles - unusual for a non-dubbed series - so could be a good choice for training listening. I'm not sure where to find it these days though; it used to be easy to watch on French Netflix using a proxy/VPN until they clamped down on these last year.
I think TV5 broadcast that one sometimes. It's a good show!
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:39 am

MamaPata wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Funny, PM, you're one of the very few on LLorg that I consider successful, and yet you receive the most advice. The rich get richer!


You've provided quite a lot of the advice. :lol:

That's what made him best of the best ;) :lol:
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:54 am

smallwhite wrote:Funny, PM, you're one of the very few on LLorg that I consider successful, and yet you receive the most advice. The rich get richer!


Yep, and I feel very lucky indeed. You simply mentioning the amount of advice I'm receiving increases my awareness and gratitude even more. And thanks for the vote of success smallwhite ;) The amount of comments I have received in this latest round of support actually really surprised me, especially since my email notifications aren't working and I thought I'd really pissed some people off enough with my antics that they weren't ever coming back. Thankfully I was wrong, as I absolutely love the support that everyone provides me with - newbies and experts! So thank you everyone for your kind advice and support, especially those who I've managed to drive a little nuts recently :) 8-)

Lawyer&Mom wrote:I’ve got nothing against Peppa Pig, but it you are looking for something accessable, free, and not subtitled, have you considered the Generation Sitcoms on YouTube? I’ve really enjoyed Les Filles d’à côté. It’s way, way easier to understand than Marseilles, but it’s still grown-ups talking to each other at native speed. Nice predictable plot lines, but some of the actors are actually quite charming. It’s fun. It was shown as part of a block of tween programming, so it’s really not difficult French.

I recommend at least some truly extensive listening. It really doesn’t matter if you don’t understand everything. There are no major plot twists on a show that has one fixed set and a laugh track.


Thanks Lawyer&Mom, I've added Les Filles d’à côté in between some documentaires (et séries-documentaires) and some kids films which my daughter watches (the language is not basic like Peppa Pig).

Xmmm wrote:Egads.

Why not just throw caution to the winds and watch 100 hours of interesting grown up TV you don't understand (at first) and see what happens?


First up, I've absolutely no idea what 'Egads' means...

Thing is, I've done that, and probably many times over at this point. I felt it's time to go back to the drawing board and learn to focus. Still, I definitely get it, since it worked for me with the news - enough exposure and eventually it became very very clear to me. Yet it's just not happening with films and series so much. Still, it might be that I just haven't persisted enough... but I don't see any harm in going back for a short while...

Sarafina wrote:Peppa Pig will be too easy to be of real benefit to you. I remember watching when I was around an A2 level and found it incredibly boring. I think you mentioned that you could understand news programs. I would recommend TV series like Avatar, le dernier maître de l'air or Steven Universe which is not only great visually but also plot wise.

Juliette je t'aime is quite good as well and there is a playlist of over 90 something episodes on YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... l3DC02M1xA

How good would you say your listening is now?


Thanks Sarafina,
I've added Juliette je t'aime in between Charlie et Lola (which comes a bit after the more basic Peppa Pig) and Le Petit Nicholas. Of course you wouldn't know this, but Japanese/Asian cartoons and movies have never really tweaked my interest. However I'll give it a go, if I don't like it after half dozen episodes, i'll move on to the next cartoon. As for Peppa Pig, it won't be of much benefit, but it will be of some, in that it will teach me to focus. This back to the drawing board idea, is really just about that - focus, focus and focus again. Recognize the turns of phrase, the expressions, the conjugations in an easy environment first, move on gradually but efficiently. Before you know it I'll be listening to speedy comedy with 10 voices at once, 20 of them backwards with 600 kids in my living room, a fire engine out front, my house burning down, someone stabbing me in the face and I won't flinch. Because I always follow through with my plans, right :?

Cavesa wrote:Hi PM,

I've just caught up with your log but I might have missed something.

I am rather surprised by the popularity of Peppa the Pig. I saw a few episodes, when some of my siblings were little, and I found it absolutely brainmelting and horrible. There are better shows for children, even the small ones. Yes, you probably need something easier than a normal native series now, but that doesn't necessarily mean dropping the expectations this low!

You've done a lot of intensive listening with Buffy, how did it go? How about you either rewatched it, as you've been considering, or trying something similarly difficult? Something you have watched in English perhaps? I found series like Grimm, Once upon a Time, the Stargate (either SG1 or Atlantis), CSI anything, the Marvel shows, and others to be very accessible.

Extensive listening will be hard at first no matter what do you start with and when do you do it. The first episode or two will be very demanding and you won't be just relaxing and you won't understand everything. You won't understand all the details. You'll need to get to that point with practice. A good time and progress unit is one season, from my experience :-) And I think that crap like Peppa Pig is just a way to postpone the real progress at your level. Either you accept the challenge, or you're unlikely to ever get over this obstacle, just like those hundreds of thousands or millions intermediate English learners that never get rid of the subtitles entirely. And let's not forget that Pig is extremely far from the level expected from you in November, if you are still decided to sit the C1 exam. If you want to get there in time, I'm afraid you'll need to push yourself harder in this area. No offence meant, I am saying it as a friendly advice taking into account your own goals stated in this log.

If you want to watch intensively, which is definitely one of the good choices, then why should you delevel from Buffy to That Pig? And if you want to practice extensively, which I definitely recommend, then you'll need to just accept the process at some point. Just like my first singing teacher repeated to me over and over "Lâchez prise!" because I needed to hear it over and over. :-)


Hmmm... I'm very glad to have your support, Cavesa, honestly :) The fact that we've been at odds recently and you're still here to provide me with positive support, I really appreciate this, thank you.

So, here's a conspiracy for you - Peppa Pig is coded language. Yes, I know it's hard to believe, but it reveals the truths of the universe. If you speak it all backwards in Latin while reciting the beatles song Do You Want to Know a Secret diagonally sideways.... pfft never mind, that's utter bullshit, obviously. No one believes me.... aaahhhh....

Sorry, my ummm, no ummm, a caterpillar was walking across my keyboard.

I must be totally honest. One thing I took from iguanamon's recent comments was what consistency is extremely important. And believe it or not, despite my 5 years of dedicated French now, rarely have I been consistent. Hence, why it takes me for ever to get through some of my courses. I think I'd be a lot better today had I remained consistent. But I will do 4 or 5 hours of French one day including a couple hours of grammar work, and 1 hour the next of just podcasts or TV. Despite developing really good rotation study plans, in practice I only do those 'desk study hours' every other day, or every third day. I have not remained very consistent, at least not in the last 2 years so much as the initial three (rough estimate). Waffle waffle waffle. I have many a great intention/plan/study routine and I break it as soon as start it. I go off track, do other things, distract myself. Good thing is though, I do remain in contact with the language practically every single day or 99 out of 100 days.

Just like wanting to watch Sex and the City extensively, like wanting to attack Yabla like it's the only French resource left on Earth, my aims and intentions with Buffy did not amount to much. I was to use it intensively but I only did it here and there for a few weeks and got not very far. So the experiment, if you want to call it that, didn't really get off the ground. A case of spreading myself too thin. With regards to French resources I have been extremely guilty (not so much lately) at the procrastination/resource gathering stage of having eyes bigger than my belly like a kid in a candy store. This is why I struggle to fathom how some people (and some very successfully) can take on more than one language at a time. Maintenance languages don't count. How can you build all your skills with so little time? I can't even find the time to build some of the skills with a crap load of hours week in week out.

I know the series Grimm, it looks okay. I like fantasy type things done well and that series Dirk Gently, Holistic Detective looks great, but Marvel stuff bores the crap out of me. Too much ego (Mr Super Dooper who came from hardshipville, or Mrs Super Powers so cool, bluhhh). Still there's plenty of good series as you suggest, definitely, even in the fantasy genre and other genres. CSI I cannot stand. I just find it far too fake (yes yes, Peppa Pig watcher talking here). Kids shows I'm willing to overlook a ton of crap, trust me I don't think Peppa Pig is great, but shows for adults, when I'm ready... won't include CSI. What's his face Mr Detective Suave zooms in, looking Miami Vicer dapper in his Miami Vice suit, deducing in several quick instants 47 hundred obvious (to him but no-one else) clues, bla bla bla, bullshit bullshit. Not my thing. Sorry CSI fans. But yes Stargate (yes bullshit too), I might be okay with considering I watched such things in the 90s, even Star Trek, since I know it's meant to 100% fake, although I'd argue, much of such programs are full of pre-programming (TV is propaganda tool number one!). Sorry I'm getting very very distracted Cavesa, and just simply ranting.

Yes, I need to take the plunge, but no harm going back to the start to train my focus. I'll move up in difficulty swiftly and take all suggestions and advice into consideration, honestly. I'll keep your words in mind Cavesa about challenging myself all the while starting off easy rather than in full challenge mode, but with an aim to reach that mode sooner rather than later. I don't think it will be too hard since I can comprehend 95% of news without issue. Some focused study in a quiet environment mixed with some determination... and Bob's you're uncle, isn't he? ;) Thanks Cavesa!

iguanamon wrote:The thing about training listening is it has to be trained and it isn't easy at first. As Cavesa says, you have to accept this if you want to progress. This is how you train listening. It gets better. You get used to the actors' voices, there are visual clues to help you. You can test your comprehension against the transcript. You can use a transcript or subtitles srt file in various ways to help you to train listening. Take notes. Read an episode review. Watch first and listen without doing anything. Watch again and take notes with timestamps. Check the transcript srt file, etc. etc. Switch it up, remembering your ultimate aim is to not to have to use any aid whatsoever to be able to listen effortlessly. So, go ahead and get a season of something (not Peppa Pig) under your belt without subtitles. Be prepared to suffer but know that it will get easier over time. Just like training for anything, the more you do it the better you become at it. No out of shape or amateur runner starts out by running Olympic record times. When I was out of shape, I couldn't run five minutes. Every muscle in my body hurt and I wanted to quit.. but I kept at it. I gradually worked my way up to 15 minutes, then 20, then half an hour, then an hour.

You are B2 certified. You can do this but you won't have perfection for a long time. I think this may be what's hard for you to accept. It takes daily listening over time to get better at listening. I am glad to see that you are now putting as much importance on listening as a part of your study regime as you have done with courses. I have no doubt that if you keep this up, you will get there.


Thanks iguanamon. You're right, I have B2 listening and I think I'm easily B2 listening to news TV and news radio, but I just need to retrain my focus with series and TV. I'm sick of English subtitles now though, and that's a very good thing. It's taken years for me to reach that point. I now am very clear that EN subtitles are holding me back.

I am guilty of being a perfectionist, indeed. It's very much helped me in some areas, while held me back in others, but this journey (and I think you wholeheartedly for helping me remain on track with one language), is certainly helping me understand where I can afford to be a perfectionist and where I can learn to let go. Although I honestly, haven't up to this point, approached listening with the same perfectionist approach, and perhaps in some ways a little more attention wouldn't hurt :)

Cavesa wrote:
iguanamon wrote:You are B2 certified. You can do this but you won't have perfection for a long time. I think this may be what's hard for you to accept. It takes daily listening over time to get better at listening. I am glad to see that you are now putting as much importance on listening as a part of your study regime as you have done with courses. I have no doubt that if you keep this up, you will get there.


This.

I used to be at this point. And I improved exactly by leaving my comfort zone, accepting the imperfection, and doing the exact opposite of what everyone had ever advised me before(especially language teachers). By biting more than I was supposed to be able to chew. Right now, you seem not to be trying to bite smaller pieces, you seem to be putting your meal in a blender so that you can drink it with a straw. B2 is definitely enough to get started with a normal dubbed show or an easier original show (brave learners who resist frustration better than you and me). Of course it will take time, that's how the advanced level works.

There are other paths. There are learners who profit immensely from intensive listening, from using all the tools iguanamon has just listed, and there are surely many more efficient learners than me. But none of the paths to success includes avoiding the challenge.


Nah, I think I've got this message quite clearly, honestly. To let go. And I do. Let's face it, I have listened to RFI and other podcasts as well as French news most weeks for multiple episodes, and I don't catch everything. I absolutely do approach pronunciation with perfectionist fervor, but when it comes to listening, I do let go. Otherwise I could never have watched the news a few years ago without pausing for every single word. Still I appreciate the advice and will keep it in mind.

Xenops wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, PM, but I wonder if we both tend to be perfectionists. A problem I struggle with is trying to memorize and know everything by heart in a chapter before I feel comfortable moving on to the next chapter, resulting in my spending more than a week on a chapter. Something I'm realizing is that I can't move onto native material until I begin the next chapter of my course book, and then the next after that. I can't wait to be in the B levels so reading native material won't be such a slog.


As mentioned, I don't believe my perfectionism has extended to listening. It's absolutely been present with course materials when shadowing and the like and yeah it did occur with reading like yourself Xenops. It took me a lot to stop myself from looking up words with extensive reading. I'm much better now (but I absolutely refuse not to look up words of which I am unsure of the pronunciation - I do not settle for substandard pronunciation)... However, I don't think it's an issue with listening. If I watch extensively (news for example), I don't pause, I rarely ever look up words. If I watch intensively with Yabla or Buffy, then I most definitely reserve the right to look up every word I'd like to look up - which is quite a few, but that's intensive study for you :)

Arnaud wrote:Why don't you watch "Plus belle la vie", about 3500 episodes of everyday french. After that brainwashing (it's worse than any brazilian soap opera), you'll be able to understand anything :lol:


tastyonions wrote:I saw "3500 episodes" and thought, "Surely Arnaud must be exaggerating." But nope, there really are about 3500 episodes in 14 seasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plus_belle_la_vie

That's an average of 250 episodes per season. How is that even possible?! :lol:


Man, that is a massive amount of watching tastyonions! Yes I shall add this to my list! Thanks Arnaud. French version of neighbours perhaps? ;) I'll be living 1992 all over again... nooo PM you never did that!

reineke wrote:Peppa Pig certainly feels more advanced than "Rocket French."


You do realise that after I reach C2 I'll be going back to Rocket French, don't you? Then, I'll go back to Pimsleur. And thennn I'll be doing Rocket French while watching Peppa Pig, shadowing both simultaneously, because that's real French for you. That's how they speak in France ;) I know, I'm French, aren't I? Or am I? Have I convinced myself? :shock: What did you say? Rocket Pig... Peppa French?

garyb wrote:Another series full of everyday language and just about watchable is "Fais pas ci, fais pas ça". It can even be found with French subtitles - unusual for a non-dubbed series - so could be a good choice for training listening. I'm not sure where to find it these days though; it used to be easy to watch on French Netflix using a proxy/VPN until they clamped down on these last year.


Already on my list, thanks garyb!

smallwhite wrote:
MamaPata wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Funny, PM, you're one of the very few on LLorg that I consider successful, and yet you receive the most advice. The rich get richer!


You've provided quite a lot of the advice. :lol:

That's what made him best of the best ;) :lol:


Although I do wonder sometimes smallwhite.... with all the languages you have studied of late and your very efficient progress, it must pain you to see me obsess over one language and take 700 trillion years to even get a sniff of my target way off in the distance. I have been tempted of late to PM you and ask for some efficiency tips, but then I thought, nah, do it my way, I probably wouldn't want to study your way, but would I? Any quick tips that you feel might aid in my French progress? (only if it's glaringly obvious to you)
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:52 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Although I do wonder sometimes smallwhite.... with all the languages you have studied of late and your very efficient progress, it must pain you to see me obsess over one language and take 700 trillion years to even get a sniff of my target way off in the distance.

No, your obsession doesn't bother me. That's your hobby, your fun part of language-learning. I like to see people know where they want to go, know how to go, make effort to go, enjoy it while going, and eventually arrive. You are all of the above. Speed is my obsession.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Any quick tips that you feel might aid in my French progress? (only if it's glaringly obvious to you)

Coincidentally, 3 things came to mind while I was reading the earlier part of your post:

1. Have you tried listening to mock C1 audio? I have a C2 one and I think it's within your ability.

2. You've been listening to RFI for some time now. Do you want to try this Deutsche Welle one called Le Journal? I think you will like it because I like it. I think it's 30min each, twice a (week?) day:
http://m.dw.com/fr/médiathèque/s-100944
Edit: more precise link: http://partner.dw.com/syndication/feeds ... 4-mrss.xml

3. Do you have "The Resident" (in English) on free TV like we do? It seems like your thing - the hospital is profit-oriented, the chief is money- and fame-seeking, the guy fights for justice.
Last edited by smallwhite on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby Sarafina » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:14 pm

I feel like I am missing something. Sorry if you've explained it before but if you already understand 95% of the news but why do you need to watch shows aimed for children/preschoolers apart from personal enjoyment of those shows. If you already recognise 'turns of phrases, the expressions, the conjugations' in that environment then why do you need to start from those shows.
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Re: PM's French Mission: C1 Nov. 2018

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:47 pm

smallwhite wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Although I do wonder sometimes smallwhite.... with all the languages you have studied of late and your very efficient progress, it must pain you to see me obsess over one language and take 700 trillion years to even get a sniff of my target way off in the distance.

No, your obsession doesn't bother me. That's your hobby, your fun part of language-learning. I like to see people know where they want to go, know how to go, make effort to go, enjoy it while going, and eventually arrive. You are all of the above. Speed is my obsession.

PeterMollenburg wrote:
Any quick tips that you feel might aid in my French progress? (only if it's glaringly obvious to you)

Coincidentally, 3 things came to mind while I was reading the earlier part of your post:

1. Have you tried listening to mock C1 audio? I have a C2 one and I think it's within your ability.


Non, je n'ai pas encore essayer d'écouter ce type d'audio. Si tu as envie de le faire, envoie-le-moi, je veux dire ce que tu m'as mentionné. Je voudrais tenter ma chance.

smallwhite wrote:2. You've been listening to RFI for some time now. Do you want to try this Deutsche Welle one called Le Journal? I think you will like it because I like it. I think it's 30min each, twice a (week?) day:
http://m.dw.com/fr/médiathèque/s-100944


Oui, je l'écoute depuis longtemps, mais il reste plein de termes que ne reconnais pas très bien. Pour être franc, il y a quelques termes ou expressions à chaque épisode que ne reconnais pas tout de suite, ou pas du tout. À force de lire les transcriptions (quand j'ai le temps) et d'écouter les épisodes fréquemment, je crois que mon français améliore au fur et à mesure. Ce n'est pas forcément l'heure de quitter utilisation d'une émission que m'est très utiles, d'autant que le prof qui m'a beaucoup aidé avec l'examen B2 m'a proposé d'écouter les émissions avec lequelles on utilise plein de phrases journalistiques en tentant de me préparer pour le prochain niveau (C1). Je rends compte que tu ne suggères pas d'arrêter de l'écouter, mais j'ai voulou tout simplement renforcer mes pensées au sujet de ce podcast.

J'ai quand même écouté un tout petit peu de DW médiathèque. Cela me semble très similaire au Journal en français facile. Mais, malheureusement, on doit l'écouter en mode 'streaming', n'est-ce pas ? Car j'ai essayé le mode 'hors-connexion' après avoir téléchargé l'application mais l'audio de l'appli ne fonctionnait pas. Je n'écoute pas de podcasts en mode streaming, parce que je m'efforce d'éviter d'augmenter les ondes électromagniques, et en plus, j'écoute la plupart d'audio en conduisant la voiture. Du coup, normalement, je téléchargerait les podcasts le matin avant de quitter la maison qui me permet de les écouter en allant au travail et en rentrant à la maison. Quelquefois je me sers de mon portable pour écouter de tels émissions à l'intérieur de la maison en faisant la vaisselle ou n'importe quel autre travail ménager, mais je les télécharge tout de même avant de les écouter.

smallwhite wrote:3. Do you have "The Resident" (in English) on free TV like we do? It seems like your thing - the hospital is profit-oriented, the chief is money- and fame-seeking, the guy fights for justice.


Non, je ne connais pas "The Resident". Est-ce que c'est entièrement en anglais? Si c'est le cas... comment tu pourrais parler d'une émission en anglais à moi ? Clairement une émission comme ça ne vaut pas la peine pour un français comme moi ! Quelle horreur ! ;) Peppa Pig, ça c'est une émission ! Est-ce que c'était le premier ministre australien qui t'as forcer de le faire ? Il a peur que j'oublierai ma langue maternelle ? Je m'en fiche ! ;)

Merci bien pour les recommandations, smallwhite :)
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