Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

[Expugnator]

This a dream of program; if there was something similar in Brazil I'd apply right away.

[rdearman]

Is there a related field which you can work in France which doesn't require a "requalification", for example "Nursing Administrator" (I'm completely guessing here) which you could get a job doing in France while either re-skilling, or re-qualifying?

It is a good point and I did look into working as an aide-soignant while bringing my nursing into line with the French system. People used to do this but it's no longer permitted. I can ultimately work in France as a nurse but it will take a lot of messing around (i need to work in another EU country first for France to deem my qualifications somewhat equivalent- training and exams would follow). Its not an easy path and I'm just not sure I want to fight for something I'm "disgruntled" about in the first place. Still it is a good suggestion and I appreciate you having mentioned it, and will keep my mind open to 'lateral possibilities'.

There is always Belgium! You get to speak French, and they are part of the EU.

[PeterMollenburg]

Is there a related field which you can work in France which doesn't require a "requalification", for example "Nursing Administrator" (I'm completely guessing here) which you could get a job doing in France while either re-skilling, or re-qualifying?

It is a good point and I did look into working as an aide-soignant while bringing my nursing into line with the French system. People used to do this but it's no longer permitted. I can ultimately work in France as a nurse but it will take a lot of messing around (i need to work in another EU country first for France to deem my qualifications somewhat equivalent- training and exams would follow). Its not an easy path and I'm just not sure I want to fight for something I'm "disgruntled" about in the first place. Still it is a good suggestion and I appreciate you having mentioned it, and will keep my mind open to 'lateral possibilities'.

There is always Belgium! You get to speak French, and they are part of the EU.

I stopped looking into Belgium after reading about the horrific nursing ratios there. Basically if I want to drive myself into a deep depression and turn around and come back to Australia I could nurse in Belgium. Seriously the nurse-patient ratios in Australia are pretty good and I still work my butt off. In Belgium I would not want to return to work after one shift from what I've read. But you do have a good point, one I have explored at length in terms of options....

The best avenue if I want to nurse/live in France is either start in the UK for the purpose of getting my qualificaitons recognised in an EU country then move onto France who would look more fondly upon my application to nurse in France, OR start in the non-EU country of Switzerland to begin nursing in a French speaking environment very close to France and either remain there or try to get into the less appealing French nursing system evenutally.

The pro's for Switzerland as mentioned already include the language in the French speaking area as well as the nursing conditions there sound pretty similar to Australia. However it's not in the EU (possibly problematic to find work- quotas are also coming in for foreign workers) and whether it would allow for me qualifications to be recognised in France is unknown. Also Switzerland would likely require some training which can prove tricky for those educated outside the EU. Apparently you have to do a bridging course (seems straigtforward) but despite it being a short-ish course it's stretched out over almost a year. Furthermore from one American's descriptions it sounds like it's hard to get work in the interim without completing that course, but completing it means you have to finance a stay in Switzerland for months on end by other means until you do complete it.

Perhaps the best option (for nursing) is begin in the UK (go get the EU box ticked), then work in Switzerland (to get the language really running smoothly) and then try France. The reason i would want to get my language 'running smoothly' is that from what I read the better you can answer nursing related questions in an exam-styled assessment in French the better chance I have of avoiding extra training by showing I know what I'm talking about in French.

In the end it's not bloody easy at all. To add to the mix I have a family I need to support. Btw I do hold an EU passport so that's certainly a bonus. And to think one of the selling points of me doing nursing was to travel with the job. What a load of BS. You know i hate globalisation and yet ironically i want to use a Dutch passport to gain access to employment in another EU country and am finding myself wanting the EU to pick up the game in terms of the cross border recognition process (why France will not recognise my qualifications while the UK and other EU countries will... pfft, frustration). Finally French rules strictly state I would need to work in the country of which I hold an EU passport- ie the Netherlands for me, as a nurse- another language barrier there-, so i'm not even certain the Uk route would work, and whether I am taking the rule too literally or not (I believe i'm not, despite the reputation the French system has for red tape- but I could be wrong).

[PeterMollenburg]

If you would be interested in doing a language degree and have interest outside of French and other popular languages there could be options. In the USA, for example, there are scholarships offered by the federal government for "critical" languages through the Critical Language Scholarship Program for diplomatic and defensive needs. Something like that could exist where you are and be useful if you'd be interested in working for the government, in international institutions (or the military - I could see why you wouldn't want to...).

If learning languages has given you an interest in how language works in general and if you have interest in tech, linguistic studies can lead to jobs in the tech field these days.

And outside of languages and tech you could look into other area of the health field since that will be guaranteed to grow. Public health, big data connected to health (which I could see becoming huge). Bringing languages back - getting into health policies for serving immigrant communities. Just throwing stuff out there.

Interesting points, thanks for sharing! Western European languages are my main interest. In terms of minority languages I'd be happy to take on a critical language on continental European French soil (Basque, Catalan, Breton, Corsican) if I could locate the scholarship to pay alleviate the financial burden of doing so. When i took on learning languages I stuck to European languages as I figure speaking languages that are in neighbouring areas in the world would make sense were I to relocate their. I was interested in Spanish and German originally (French overtook) and Dutch at times. Thus learning something like Breton, Frisian, Basque etc would interest me, and now anything on French soil more so as I decided some time ago to narrow the geographical region down to France for living purposes and passion with the language.

The critical languages in the link you provided don't fit the bill. I know it's an example too, and from what I understand they're not necessarily critical in a language sense but critical in terms of a need for goverment and so on in relation to the US. I've never come across anything in relation to Australia (although that would again separate my geographical region of interest into two, although not so bad considering Australia has been my home for the majority of my life). On the tangent of Australian aboriginal languages- I couldn't imagine finding the time to study even one of them let alone ressources. And to be perfectly honest if a scholarship was there I wouldn't take it because it's simply not my interest. I value all languages but my interest does not lie there. I know i'm getting off track. It is really good suggestion worth absolutely suggesting but I don't think it fits my picture, even if I expand it a little (eg Breton, Basque etc). You have however tweaked my interest in regional languages of France there (careful the can of worms isn't quite open enough for the worms to escape). I couldn't imagine the French gov't supporting the study of their regional languages via scholarships. I'd imagine such efforts would have to be made by the local regions. On that topic I did read just a day or two back that the Corsican regional gov't is planning on pouring some money into the spread of the Corsican language with an aim to create a bilingual population. I'd be more than happy to relocate to Corsica on a scholarship with a view to attaining a high enough level to teach the language. I don't think that exists, nor do I think i'm much of a candidate.

Perhaps I can't have it all my way, so I think what Cavesa said is an avenue worth exploring. I really don't want to add to the spread of a global language, but it is where my inherent native ability is (English). Perhaps I could do my language degree and marry it with an English language teaching certification so that I teach English in France and have other languages to fall back on for possible other positions in Australia or in Europe.

[PeterMollenburg]

On another note....

In terms of not liking nursing I have looked into homeopathy, naturopathy, nutrtion(al medecine), and even medecine.

I decided even if I had the energy to get through years of medecine which would take forever and not be worth it in the long-run financially, I couldn't do it, Much of the same problems exist for me as they do with nursing and I would have to go more into depth in the same system. I don't begruge nurses or doctors by any means (generally speaking). I despise the one dimensional pharmaceutical/surgical dominated approach to health care. A system that legislates in many western countries to treat cancer ONLY with surgery, chemo or radiation stinks of corruption on a massive scale. There are sooooooo many natural cures (yes yes they don't work) that have had such deliberate negative press it's obscene. Considering medical journals, television, newspaper, politicians, universities (that's why doctors and nurses know next to nothing about natural cures and nutrition and drink coke at work), doctors (usually to a much lesser degree), so-called RESEARCH and the approving bodies such as the FDA all receive money from pharmaceutical resources is it any wonder that "natural cures don't work" according to the "research" are not approved, not heard of, or that this is the drug or treatment you need- all that other stuff is heresay, doesn't work, or is whatever. This is my problem and that is not a scratch on the surface of the truth behind it all and people are oblivious to this world-wide corruption, don't want to know about it because they're too busy trying to earn a living with the rediculous costs of living, are playing games, using facebook, watching reality TV/pornography or have become unwell by a world so sick that the health-care system is only one portion of it that they can't even give any energy to such things.

Nutritional medecine can be studied here in australia by myself (with my background), but if I want to work as a nutritionist in France I need to be a doctor.

If I want to work as a homeopath in France, I need to be a doctor.

So again if I want to be a doctor in France, it is EXTREMELY competitive and it would take around 9 years of my life if I got in on the 10,000 to one odds (that counts those two out above as well).

If I want to be a naturopath I technically can, once I do a course. It's one option I have. It's not highly regulated in France. I would likely need to set up my own business. This would be problematic in itself for various reasons, not impossible but certainly no walk in the park. It would make more sense to try to get into nursing then attempt to expand into naturopathy (if i really do actually want to do it) from within that country- i'd be making sure the qualifications would be sufficient the other way too if we returned to Australia. I have come across a good Canadian online naturopathy course over 4 years, provided in French or English, but not sure I really want to go down this path either.

So would studying languages at university in Australia be worthwhile? It would be for Australia. I think I could go on to at least create a decent portion of income from teaching while perhaps relying on nursing as a backup. That is a possibility. So I have wondered that perhaps it would be better to do that degree IF we returned to Australia as it may not prove useful for Europe. Teaching English probably would, it is again a good suggestion and a logical one. Perhaps it's my easiest avenue. Again, must find out more. Perhaps combining the Australian language degree (if my family can actually afford it) with the English teaching qualifications would be a good mix).

Ultimately i want i want i want, but that doesn't fit, nor does that, nor does that... so here's my wish list Santa:

I live in an Earthship with my family in France. We speak French all day long in society with some English at home. I teach languages (English is no longer necessary as I can manage a decent income now), I provide health advice in a gîte-styled retreat. Oh and to top it off, the world comes to it senses, people do away with mobile phones, stop allowing their rights be taken away from them, put an end to central bank debt driven economies and a new paradigm for natural preventative health and living in harmony with nature builds and replaces the old greed driven corporate led system.

Is that too much to ask?

[smallwhite]

I don't think the problem is your job.

Although a rather elusive comment I'll attempt to reply.

I thought I was succinct. I don't think the problem is your job. You would've like it if the hospital sector was run your way.

I hope that's detailled enough. Btw, I suggest you don't work in the private sector / in for-profit companies. If you complain on a language forum about "a global health care system ultimately run by many who would rather line their pockets while doing harm", I don't know where you can complain about for-profit companies that does everything for profit, exists in the first place for profit, and the by-product called harm is a given.

I didn't know nursing had the highest burn-out rates. In my first job, I worked 9am to 11pm on average. My record clock-out time was 5:07am. Hours in the office, that is. Work continues at home. In my last job, 9am to 7pm in the office, at home until 1am. 6 days a week. Sundays are whole days of work at home. What are nursing's hours?

I complained during my first job, but not afterwards. Because it was me who decided to stay. I did go run a business for a while, but then I came back, willingly.

Btw, you can consider running your own business. I started mine with an intial investment of about US$5. Thereafter, the business sustained itself. And supported me for years. And got me learning and using French

[Cavesa]

Well, the critical languages are not just hard. The other and more important criterium is their expected economical (or political) importance in near future (or already existing potential that is not being exploited to the fullest by the americans). I'm afraid Occitan or Basque are extremely unlikely to ever fill the bill. Some get support of their governments (such as Catalan courses being offered for free in Prague, a weird yet true example) but learning them isn't the path to a great career usually.

You sound very burnt out. And it is no wonder. I am getting quite burnt out too actually, even though I am still exploring some other options than flushing years of my life down the toilet and quitting without my medicine degree. Perhaps some other changes in your life could at least help you soften the situation (perhaps a new hobby, more time in nature or with friends) at least until a permanent solution is found.

Nursing burn-outs are not just about the hours. Lots of extremely unpleasant things are part of the job, there is a lot of stress included, especially for nurses with some empathy. There is a lot of suffering included, lots of body fluids, lots of other things not that present in most jobs. They often start as enthusiasts and altruists but, unless they know how to take care of themselves and their employer supports them in the endeavour, it all adds up and many end up burnt out. I don't say you cannot burn out in other jobs, of course you can. It's just that the healthcare professionals occupy the top of the ladder usually.

Studying medicine as an older student is possible, I know several such students, one is a classmate of mine (a father of a family, working part time somehow) but it is extremely hard and it is not a solution for someone burnt out in healthcare. And it may not be that easy to get in France as a doctor from outside the EU anyways. On one hand, they are desperately in need of more doctors (of some specializations and willing to work in the less popular regions), on the other, they are not always making it easy for the newcomers from what I've heard. Heh, even some aspects of being a french medical student become a french doctor are more complicated and selective than necessary despite the lack of doctors.

There are two countries many doctors, nurses, and other healthcare staff dreams about in Europe. Germany and Sweden. These two have a reputation of always needing more staff for their healthcare systems and of having the best conditions (especially salaries, but not only) in Europe. So, if you'd be willing to leave the romance language branch for the germanic one, you could be a nurse in a system far more friendly towards the employees. Friendly compared with France as well. Sweden has even been experimenting with 6h workdays (for the 8h money) in some of the elderly care or chronical patient care institutions recently. Germany has a favorable work/salary ratio and very newcomer friendly system, from what I've heard from various sources. (Germany is already one of my studied languages, Swedish is on the hitlist )

Another not healthcare related option: become an artisan. There are not only university requiring jobs on the market. And many kinds of high quality manual work are always in demand as the european youth has been less interested in entering these careers lately. And you can earn good money in many countries that way. Not as much as a politician, engineer, or programmer usually. But still more than a nurse. And you can actually get much more immersed in the language and culture than as a language teacher. And the requalification might be much shorter and cheaper than several more years at the university.

Or how about programming? Anyone can start with coursecademy these days and at least find out whether they are able to learn to code, should they put in more time and efforts. Many programmers are autodidacts (many of the guys good with computers that I know were already good in highschool, some even earning money this way), so the investment and risk doesn't need to be too bad. And it is a career you can pursuit anywhere in the world these days, even though some markets are surely more competitive than others.

[PeterMollenburg]

I don't think the problem is your job.

Although a rather elusive comment I'll attempt to reply.

I thought I was succinct. I don't think the problem is your job. You would've like it if the hospital sector was run your way.

You didn't elaborate on your comment. You might see it as succinct I saw it as elusive. Is that not evidence enough that you comment was too short for me to 'read between the lines' or take it at face value? Whichever was intended was not clear at the time (to me, not you). When you communicate with others you need to take into account your audience, I wouldn't advise communicating with everyone like they are you, think like you, derive meaning from words as you do.

You seem to think you know me, and perhaps you've been in a similar position from what you go on to talk about. I better be careful here but I think you are saying "You wouldn't like it if the hospital system was run your way". if that's what you're saying I disagree. Succinct enough?

I hope that's detailled enough. Btw, I suggest you don't work in the private sector / in for-profit companies. If you complain on a language forum about "a global health care system ultimately run by many who would rather line their pockets while doing harm", I don't know where you can complain about for-profit companies that does everything for profit, exists in the first place for profit, and the by-product called harm is a given.

I wouldn't agree that all companies for profit do harm, but I see your point and it is something I have considered as well. Thanks for your advice though. Oh and if you're attempting to allude to the fact that health care does less harm than the other for profit companies you seem to be referring to, that would be hard to find. I put pharmaceutical companies, oil companies and banking corporations in the same league of companies that do an incredible amount of harm, but there are a lot of good companies out there.

I didn't know nursing had the highest burn-out rates. In my first job, I worked 9am to 11pm on average. My record clock-out time was 5:07am. Hours in the office, that is. Work continues at home. In my last job, 9am to 7pm in the office, at home until 1am. 6 days a week. Sundays are whole days of work at home. What are nursing's hours?

Nursing hours vary depending on the position, place of work, and individual circumstances. I work 32 hours a week as I look after my daughter 2 days a week while my wife works. It's not the hours I'm complaining about necessarily, one aspect I am touching on (among others) is the work pace at any given time. There's a reason for the high burnout, and there's a reason why most nursing staff in the emergency department where I work do not work any more than 32 hours a week- any more is intolerable. If you're trying to convince me I"ve got it good and you don't know nothing- look at this, i'm not going to buy into that. Work satisfaction is subjective. I know I don't like it, pure and simple, regardless of your perceptions of what is a difficult job.

I complained during my first job, but not afterwards. Because it was me who decided to stay. I did go run a business for a while, but then I came back, willingly.

Btw, you can consider running your own business. I started mine with an intial investment of about US$5. Thereafter, the business sustained itself. And supported me for years. And got me learning and using French

I also returned to my work after a year long break. I did so reluctantly. I have a family to support and I need an income and I have little to no skills in other areas. You might be able to create your own business but for someone with less know-how and business savvy intelligence or whatever other ingredients you have that I don't it's not going to necessarily be as easy. Again I do think I might know what you're getting it, and I actually agree- I'm in control here. Which is why i'm trying to attempt to seek other work avenues.

I think I see the good in what you are trying to say and I appreciate that. What I don't appreciate is your succinct seemingly arrogant comments that largely appear devoid of compassion. You've done it all so I can too. I don't think you realise how you're coming off in your words.

PM

[smallwhite]

What I don't appreciate is your succinct seemingly arrogant comments that largely appear devoid of compassion.

Indeed it didn't occur to me that I should show compassion. I was trying to put in personal experience, points of views and advice, and I thought that was appropriate.

My first message was originally a bit longer, but then I realised that there was really just 1 message I wanted to convey - don't change jobs. Because changing jobs won't make you happier, because your problem is not with your job, because the problems you state are just secondary, because of reasons I can't really grasp and elaborate on. I'm not you so I can't tell exactly where your problem is. I just feel, and want to tell you, that your problem is not your job.

The rest of what I later wrote boils down to 比上不足比下有餘 (lacking when compared to those above, and comfortable compared to those below) (ie. there are people better, there are people worse) and 你睇人好人睇你好 (when you look at other people, you feel that they are better; when other people look at you, they feel you are better).

> You've done it all so I can too. I don't think you realise how you're coming off in your words.

Indeed I don't see what's wrong with saying "I can and so can you". It suggests that I think you are either equal to or more able than I am.

[sfuqua]

I'm really glad I blew up my life a year out of college and joined Peace Corps at 23. I'm glad that in my 30s I worked for 8 years for peanuts in a refugee camp. I'm glad I changed careers in my 40s, even though I went back to my original field after a while.

At 42, I went back to graduate school and finished a graduate degree in Computer Science. It was pretty hard, and I blew up a big chunk of debt, but I got to live some of my dreams working at NASA. I got to see if I could keep up the pace at a Silicon Valley startup. I learned a lot more about my strengths and weaknesses.

I now get to chuckle at the arrogance of programmers and others in the private sector who think that they work so much harder than everyone else. Been there, done that. There are lazy and hardworking people in every field, I suppose. There are hard days and easy days in any sane job.

My current field, middle school science teaching, has a high burnout rate. There is a lot stress and a lot of frustration. I am lucky in that I love working with my students. I have worked out ways of working in my frustrating field that let me be pretty happy most of the time at work.

I can only imagine the stresses of nursing.

Studying languages is one of the things that keeps me sane currently. Throughout my life, I have only been happy when I am growing or improving myself in some way. Maybe if you can find a way to do something to prepare yourself for a future, you can get through an unsatisfactory present.

A few times in my life, I haven't known what the next step is. Sometimes, it has taken what seems to be way too long to figure the next step. So far, the next step has always appeared. Have faith that you will figure it out.