I’ll try to keep this brief, because it’s clear this could go on forever...
CompImp wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:I’d say you’re right, it does give you the grounds to claim exactly that. Thank you for revealing your experience. I do want to ask though, and in absolute honesty, this is not because I do not believe your claims, but because so many people do overstate their achievements as per CEFR, have you passed any language exams at the C-level?
No, but i'm sure you can judge for yourself that my writing is far and beyond any level on the scale. My speaking is equally fluent but with an accent and i understand everything i read and hear like a native. I don't think the certificate from a boxed exam which doesn't test real-world skill is really necessary.
Yep, okay.
CompImp wrote:...and once done there will be even more room for native content. So don’t expect me to hover around the intermediate level forever, because I already include native content in my daily routine (which you don’t seem to acknowledge much at all, you just seem to focus on my courses and their limited capacity for progress) and once I have completed them, well, I’m repeating myself.
If your log is anything to go by, you will never 'complete' or 'finish doing' courses. You will simply do more.
Fair judgement. I can’t argue with that.
CompImp wrote:How you consume native material and what you're consuming matters, a lot. If you're watching TV and you understand nothing it's a waste of your time. You've watch a couple of hundred films you didn't understand which means you've watched no films.
I agree, which is why I didn’t watch as much native content early on, because it was a waste of time.
I never said anywhere that I understood nothing. In fact, I understand quite a lot of what I watch, especially when I’m not tired
CompImp wrote:Pretty harsh hey? No room for much in the way of compliments. Cavesa has said many a time herself, that courses are valuable at the advanced levels. I agree. Clarification: She NEVER said only doing courses is worthwhile, so her methods are much more like yours than mine, but courses are NOT a waste of time. Skynet is on the verge of B2 with courses alone, I made it to B2 using predominantly courses. I don’t expect to make C2 only using courses, however they are not useless. Might be to you, but they are not to me.
But you're confusing exam levels and
real skill. Read the B2 descriptors. You're supposed to be able to function like an adult human in any situation. You can't understand dubbed TV. Which means the exams aren't really worth much except to prove to employers or school that you have a certain level. I'm talking about being able to do what the descriptors say. Sure, there are course materials that will prepare you for C level exams. But passing C level exams doesn't mean you're able to do what is said in the descriptors. It means you passed their test. As it proven by your current predicament despite being B2 certified and yet the detailed decriptors say the following:
I can understand extended speech and
lectures and follow even complex lines
of argument provided the topic is
reasonably familiar. I can understand
most TV news and current affairs
programmes. I can understand the
majority of films in standard dialect.
I can read articles and reports concerned
with contemporary problems in which
the writers adopt particular attitudes or
viewpoints. I can understand
contemporary literary prose.
I can write clear, detailed text on a wide
range of subjects related to my interests.
I can write an essay or report, passing on
information or giving reasons in support
of or against a particular point of view. I
can write letters highlighting the
personal significance of events and
experiences.
You can't do any of that. Which means the certificate you have proves nothing unfortunately.
I can’t? Seems like you haven’t been reading much of my log then. Because I stated I was having trouble with some TV and an audio book, you have drawn the conclusion that I can do none of the above? I would say I can do all of the above.
CompImp wrote:I don’t give a flying f***ng turd what ‘we’ do! I count hours because I sit and read with my children most days and haven’t got the bloody time to count pages! I know most people count pages, I don’t have an IQ of 2, nor have a been living up a tree for the last ten years! Yes, this makes me angry for a couple of reasons. You are not me, and despise being part of a collective, that’s one of the main things wrong with humanity, that we are being herded like sheep, so don’t expect me to do something else because it’s the norm. Okay, breathe PM.
LOL calm down. The point is that you can say you read for 694 hours and yet you only read 5 pages. Get it ? You're also probably reading similar kids material over and over and over and yet count them towards your 'reading' hours. This might account for you still not being able to function despite all the 'work' you put in - hundreds of hours of reading very limited content, hundred of hours going over the same course stuff, hundreds of hours of watching incomprehensible TV.....get it ?
No, wrong. I have been a member of AF. We borrowed several different books every week. I also have a small library of children’s books, of which I’ve never read every story as there are so many. I also read content aimed at adults, the comprehension level sometimes in the adult books can be higher. The children’s books are not about little Mr X goes to the local shop, buys a lolly, returns home, the end.
I must also add, and I’ve said this often in my log, that I spent A LOT of time perfecting accent. Okay, perhaps you don’t like to do that, I do, and it has been worthwhile, yet it did cost a LOT of time.
CompImp wrote:As for your conspiracy rant...people aren't expecting you to do what they do because you're a 'sheep'. It's not good to do it 'my' way because it's the 'norm', it's the 'norm' because it works. I guess being an 'individual' with no language skill is more important to you than actually progressing. And that's fine. Do what you like.
Thanks for granting me my freedom.
CompImp wrote:PeterMollenburg wrote:I ignored most people on my approach to B2 too.
But you're not a real, functioning B2, you're a 'paper' B2. See above.
According to your misguided assessment.
CompImp wrote:You have the gall to brag about it to people who learn language better than you and who are trying to help you but you can't watch a TV show without getting lost. You ignored these superior learners and are now bragging that you reached a low level without their advice ? Come on. You ignored Ronaldo on your way to smashing 9/10 free kicks into the wall. Congratulations.
Thanks dude, where’s my trophy?
CompImp wrote:I agree, but it is what it is, and it’s the way I want to do it.
But you will never end up 'doing it'. There's a reason it's taking you so long and it's not because you're stupid. It's because you're not doing the right things. It's a longer road from B2 to C1 than from 0-B2. You're not even real B2. How many lifetimes do you have to get to real C1 ?
I know there are flaws in my study approach, it’s not completely flawed however, and it leans heavily on courses. I don’t intend to do them forever, and I won’t.
CompImp wrote:Edit: Taken from a recent post of reineke’s called
Reaching High Levels from which I have quoted rdearman:
rdearman wrote:I thought this was a very telling paragraph:
On average, learners with six months or more of targeted classroom instruction at the upper levels of proficiency and at least two years of in-country experience were able to shorten the average time-on-task for acquiring near-native proficiency from 17 years to five, including the time spent at lower levels of proficiency.
Not sure why your conclusion to this isn't 'classroom time isn't worth much' instead of using it as an excuse. Also, it's hours that matters, not years.
And yes what i've written above sounds harsh but....it's just the reality. No offence is meant, i'm just saying it how it is, and the evidence backs me.
[/quote]
Well I was more interested in the time scale than anything, and the fact that reaching C1/C2 for most people is a very long road. So you just got their quicker, well done. I’m taking the scenic route, honestly, just let this go - My routine is rather diverse (but I do courses where you don’t), it has holes, sure, but I’ll fill them in at some point.
As for assessment of real life skills vs exams. I’ve always pushed myself to perform in French as per the real world. If I was all about the exam only I would’ve worked on the C1/C2 exam texts only, gone and passed the test and moved on. I don’t say this because I’m trying to argue against you. Honestly, CompImp, you have got me wrong, if not completely, then at least to a certain extent.
You are saying I understand nothing of TV and cannot function as per the descriptors of B2. This is absolutely incorrect. We have been arguing over something with incorrect points of reference.
Granted, you know where you’re coming from, granted this debate has become a little over-heated, and perhaps more so out of my defence as opposed to your comments.
I would like to stop arguing here and say to you that I do respect your position, I got angry and I apologise, thank you for trying to wake me up, but you’ve judged my whole entire language ability on a couple of self assessments, which you’ve taken to an extreme and then stated that I understand nothing of TV and am probably reading the same children’s books over and over. We all have our bad days. Let’s drop this, agree to disagree on a number of points, shake hands and move on. I acknowledge your points, you have decent things to bring to the discussion that are absolutely worth considering. I don’t deny the effectiveness of native content, which is why I use it.
I don’t deny the definite inefficiency of language courses beyond B2, but I disagree on their value. I am at the extreme opposite end to you, in that I really enjoy using language courses, where it sounds like it’s the last thing you want to do.
Lastly, even if I do all these courses, acknowledge their inefficiency I still will use native content now and after they are completed.
Learning one’s first L2 is a journey of getting to know oneself and what works and what doesn’t. If I’m going absolutely down the wrong path, despite all the warning signs and I’m hell bent on proceeding, regardless. So be it. I’ll learn from it, but I want to do it anyway. I decided at some point that I don’t want to reach C1/C2 via the fastest possible route, I decided in the end I will take the scenic route that goes seemingly in the wrong direction. After I get to the end of that road (and there will be an end), I will then head for the faster, straighter roads, but I can’t guarantee I won’t get a little lost on occasion in the odd village or two, or three
If anything you’re posts have made me more determined (i’ve been digging my claws in). I honestly do what to reach that native content land, so I must now proceed with reckless abandon, in the apparent wrong direction. Thank you for stopping by Complmp
(heads off waving a white flag)