Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:24 pm

If you don't know where you want to go, any road will do. If you had to make a decision based on a coin toss, which side would you hope it lands on?

Conversely, 67 extra hours divided by 5 is about 13 hours. How much extra would you really learn in 13 hours.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:55 pm

rdearman wrote:If you don't know where you want to go, any road will do. If you had to make a decision based on a coin toss, which side would you hope it lands on?

Conversely, 67 extra hours divided by 5 is about 13 hours. How much extra would you really learn in 13 hours.



Well, I don’t know. I like (and dislike) both sides of the coin, honestly, for different reasons.

No, 67 extra hours has already been divided (it was an extra 335 hours).
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby trui » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:15 pm

Do whatever keeps you learning! :D

As for Dutch and German, there are a fair few false friends and other things to watch out for. There's also a lot that's the same, but if you start both at the same time, you'll still have trouble with the differences and receive less benefits from the similarities.

Some things that trip me up:

False friends. (Schlimm ist kein "slim"! "Eine Tafel" is geen tafel.)
The ch in sch and g. (I keep pronouncing both like ch on its own, since that's how it is in Dutch.)
The eu in neu (I keep forgetting that it's pronounced like noi.)
Word order is slightly different.

There's been lots of benefits though. I've been able to jump straight into reading after learning only a couple hundred words. It's still a struggle, but thanks to my intermediate Dutch knowledge, it hasn't been a fools errand. This has helped a lot with motivation, as being able to read German (the news, books, etc) is one of my main motivations for learning it. :)

Starting German has also rekindled my motivation for Dutch. I started learning Dutch when I met my fiancé, nearly five years ago, but I've become less motivated than I was during the first couple years since any progress I make now takes longer to show any clear improvement. German has helped get me excited about language learning in general again, and that includes Dutch.

So I definitely think you'll enjoy getting back into Dutch again, and I'm sure it'll be a pleasure to learn. Dutch and German at once-- well, the answer depends on what motivates you more. Focusing on one first is certainty the more textbook choice, so if you have trouble juggling both, then like you said, you can just drop it, but if doing both motivates you more, then go for it!
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:05 pm

Would a C1 make you more employable than a B2?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:24 am

trui wrote:Do whatever keeps you learning! :D

As for Dutch and German, there are a fair few false friends and other things to watch out for. There's also a lot that's the same, but if you start both at the same time, you'll still have trouble with the differences and receive less benefits from the similarities.

Some things that trip me up:

False friends. (Schlimm ist kein "slim"! "Eine Tafel" is geen tafel.)
The ch in sch and g. (I keep pronouncing both like ch on its own, since that's how it is in Dutch.)
The eu in neu (I keep forgetting that it's pronounced like noi.)
Word order is slightly different.

There's been lots of benefits though. I've been able to jump straight into reading after learning only a couple hundred words. It's still a struggle, but thanks to my intermediate Dutch knowledge, it hasn't been a fools errand. This has helped a lot with motivation, as being able to read German (the news, books, etc) is one of my main motivations for learning it. :)

Starting German has also rekindled my motivation for Dutch. I started learning Dutch when I met my fiancé, nearly five years ago, but I've become less motivated than I was during the first couple years since any progress I make now takes longer to show any clear improvement. German has helped get me excited about language learning in general again, and that includes Dutch.

So I definitely think you'll enjoy getting back into Dutch again, and I'm sure it'll be a pleasure to learn. Dutch and German at once-- well, the answer depends on what motivates you more. Focusing on one first is certainty the more textbook choice, so if you have trouble juggling both, then like you said, you can just drop it, but if doing both motivates you more, then go for it!


Lawyer&Mom wrote:Would a C1 make you more employable than a B2?


Hi Lawyer&Mom,
C1 would make me more employable....

German and Dutch, thanks for the comparisons, trui. I’d like to mention that in the past my Dutch has reached B1 at least and my German perhaps A2. I remember hearing German people speak once my Dutch was at it’s peak and I was able to discern what was being discussed when speech was clearly enunciated and not too fast.

It don’t think it’s going to take much for me to renounce German if I run into some real issues, however, once learning it, I could fall in love again and find it just too hard to give up :?

I think one thing that saves me a lot from getting my wires crossed across languages is that I tend to put on a French suit for French, a Spanish one for Spanish etc. In doing so, my pronunciation varies greatly, as I make every attempt to eliminate my accent. This helps compartmentalise or differentiate my languages, since when speaking German, I sound rather German (I believe) and with Dutch and sound Dutch. Where the problems might arise are in grammatical differences (and perhaps some vocab) that are slight, but noticeable. Time will tell.

For now, I’ve ticked off day number 1 of serious exam prep... One day is easy, three and a half months, well that’s another story! Good luck to me :lol:
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:55 pm

I am curious if having an actual certificate makes you more employable? Do healthcare employers in France or Holland require it on the CV, or do they just do an interview in language. I suppose you don't know since you've not done it, but maybe you've researched it? I looked and found this Compentency-guideline and it was interesting about EuroPass which is an online assessment for European languages.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:38 am

rdearman wrote:I am curious if having an actual certificate makes you more employable? Do healthcare employers in France or Holland require it on the CV, or do they just do an interview in language. I suppose you don't know since you've not done it, but maybe you've researched it? I looked and found this Compentency-guideline and it was interesting about EuroPass which is an online assessment for European languages.


Although I don’t have any links to share with you (i’m in a hurry as per usual, there are plenty out there), nurses having trained outside the EU wanting to work in continental Europe in which English is not the first language, in countries I have investigated (including non EU countries Switzerland and Norway), require at least a B2 level of the local language. Providing evidence of this saves one from having to sit an exam at a set date after arrival and delaying the process of finding a job once on location (I can legally arrive without a job, since I hold a Dutch passport, but I wouldn’t want to do this anyway).

I also know this from actual experience. While in the Netherlands with my wife in 2011 she was offered a job (as a nurse) in a Rotterdam hospital. They wanted to hire her, but could not. Her qualifications were more than adequate, but she had no evidence of Dutch language skills (on paper). Since she’d trained outside the EU, she had to prove a B2 level of Dutch. She couldn’t, so no job, despite the fact that they (the manager of the unit and other staff) even stated that they were happy to communicate with her in English until her Dutch improved- they were keen given her experience. Due to the language law (the B2 level for non EU trained nurses), she could not be given the job in the end.

On our return to Australia, my wife and I vowed that were we to ever return to Europe, I (or her, but more likely to be me given my love of languages) must pass a B2 language test (in whichever language) before attempting to work in Europe as a nurse in future. I opted this time for French, and achieved that some time ago, as you know.

I think it goes without saying that if you have a few candidates for a job, say in a French speaking country, one candidate with French as a mother tongue, another with French at B1 and another with French at C1 (let’s say that’s me at C1), then I’d at least be likely to nudge out the B1 candidate (based on language ability) depending on their experience of course. What goes in my favour (or any nurse) is that there is a desperate shortage of nurses throughout much of the OECD (Spain I think is one exception), but I know they are short in France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany and foresee it only getting worse over the course of the next decade.

As for nurses within the EU, the B2 rule does not apply. I have seen jobs advertised requesting B2 in French in Wallonia, while as low as A2 level of Dutch in Flanders. This is due to desperation, since they are so short on nursing staff. Were I to apply in Flanders, regardless of the advertised A2 level that I have seen on occasion, since I am not trained in the EU, I would still have to show a B2 certified level of Dutch anyway.

Having said that...
I also know of one nurse from New Zealand working in Brussels. As she initially worked in the UK, she then went to Brussels to work as a nurse without needing a B2 level of French. This is because once you are accepted in one country of the EU (regardless of the language used in the work environment, in her case, English), you then get treated like an EU citizen (in terms of language level required) and can go an work in any non-English speaking EU country without (official) evidence of the local language to B2 or otherwise. Of course the employer may request it for the job, but it’s not subject to EU/the individual country’s law, despite the candidate originally training outside the EU.

So, were I to work in UK (pre Brexit) or Ireland, I could in theory go and work in Belgium (or another EU country) without needing that B2 AND I wouldn’t have to get my nursing qualifications assessed as well (that can take around 9 months for Belgium). My wife and I have discussed this path but it seems that perhaps the UK will have left the EU by then, and Ireland... the state of the working conditions there are awful (I’ve heard it first hand from Irish nurses here), so no thanks. May as well go directly to Belgium, hopefully with a C1 in French which might improve my chances of getting a job.

On another note, so desperate are they in parts of NL and Flanders, I know they run courses for Spanish trained nurses to learn Dutch for a number of weeks in Barcelona before sending them to NL/Flanders for work. I’d imagine the courses. Approaching nursing recruitment agencies, at least if I can spare them that expense (of sending me away for language training) they might be more willing to overlook the work my Australian qualifications will take to gain equivalency, in order to find me suitable work. A C1 can only make me look more inviting. And more nursing studies here (I’m considering a one year critical care post grad certificate here) will help my case there as well when it comes to assessing whether I am deemed equivalent to the locals in training and expertise. I don’t want to be told my qualfications are rubbish, I need to do a year of training in BE. That’s simply not possible (unless I was paid a decent wage - but no, I’d have to pay for the course).

Should I ever make it into BE, I will be chasing this:
Carte Professionnelle Européenne
It will streamline the process of obtaining employment in other EU countries, enabling a smoother transition from one country to the next in terms of having to get my nursing qualifications assessed and so on. I’ll basically only have to do it in depth the first time. But that is the nursing qualifications, not the language necessarily.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:41 am

Update on Projet de Cinq Langues

Lately, it’s been really hard to manage to reach 3 hours a day of focused study in prep for the exam. Yesterday I didn’t make it and have done my last 45 min from yesterday, this morning. However whether I can fit in 3 hours today and even tomorrow due to circumstances at home remains dubious. Basically I cannot distract myself with anything. Last night I distracted myself with looking up various children’s magazines in several languages - a way which could prove useful, inclusive and promote the knowledge of other languages further in the household while helping me with my goals at the same time. Still, it cost me time I couldn’t spare last night (and the night before). But, I now have 3 children’s French magazine subscriptions, which are great for getting the kids involved in stories, learning and discussing curious things about the world and themselves.

The 3 hours/day used to be achievable once upon a time when life wasn’t as busy. It doesn’t seem so realistic nowadays. Yes it might be if I function like a soldier, but believe me work is already constantly very very busy and to be always under pressure at home is difficult to tolerate- sometimes I just want to zone out a little. I felt this 3 hours/day of French for exam prep can be good trial run to see whether I can dedicate 3 hours a day for 5 languages post exam (that’s not 3 hours each, but shared, like i’m dedicating now solely to French).

If I’m realistic, putting interruptions into the scheme, such as a potential move an hour away from work and/or study, I played around with the numbers according to different scenarios to see how much study I can get done over the coming just over 2 year period. I can’t let go of the 5 languages I have chosen at this stage, but I cannot deny that in reality I’m not likely to achieve 3 hours per day of intensive study. And, I must not ignore these important factors 1. I want to introduce all 5 languages. 2 Dutch is more important than the rest in terms of progress in the near future. 3 French must not take a backslide, and preferably move forward. So....

If I have 3 hours per day, studying 45 minutes per language rotating through them, going by 770 days of study (from late November to 1st Jan 2022), this is a maximum amount of intensive study achievable per each of the 5 languages:

462 hours (219 hours/year)
—————————————
However, if I always do Dutch twice, being more important, for every other language once, I end up with this:

770 hours of Dutch, 385 hours of the other four.
———————————————
However, as stated, 3 hours/day is likely unrealistic I think. So If I base the same plan (Dutch twice for every other language once), I come up with this based on 2 hours per day.

513 hours of NL,
256 each for the four others.
———————————-
And in a drastic scenario in which I’m just really really stuck for time (this is still plausible given I’m considering taking on more nursing studies etc), well here’s what I get out of 1.5 hours/day of study:

385 hrs NL,
192 hours for the four others.
————————
So, I’m likely to stick to the idea of doing Dutch twice for only one session for each of the other languages. I think it’s more realistic. My Dutch will noticeably advance, my French won’t ‘die’ and I’ll get a taste of the others as they go into slow learning mode. And perhaps this will be how it continues - whichever language I want to improve faster will be learned two times, while only one time for the rest.
————————-
Why do them all at once? (cutting down languages would increase the time for each one). While the children are young I want to introduce them to the other languages (languages I’m interested in - no sense in teaching them something that doesn’t interest me). A gradual approach which involves my children is the best approach here I think, for their gradual increase in comprehension and mine as well. Thus, I will begin reading stories to them in each of these languages, introducing them mainly next year (Dutch they already hear occasionally). French will remain the first choice, Dutch second, the rest will perhaps lead to a passive knowledge more than anything as there won’t be enough time to teach them thoroughly.
————————-

If I do only end up with 1.5 hrs/day of intensive study time, but I am travelling long distances to work of around an hour in one direction, I will use that time for more exposure to the languages I deem more important, which at this stage are French (always wanting to improve), Dutch (increased job prospects in BE - must advance quicker than the rest), and Norwegian (really mostly out of interest, although working in No is a possibility, but distant in reality). Thus even if I only get 385 hours of Dutch and 192 hours of French and Norwegian intensive study done in the next two years or so, listening practice will add significantly more time, and story-telling more time will add hours for all of the languages. German and Spanish will remain present, slow-growing unless circumstances change.
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:37 pm

Went to a Uni open day yesterday. Have never been to one, and now as a middle aged adult, I decided it was time. Guess I got some useful things out of it. I took my nephew who has a little way to go in high school, but it gave him some things to think about. Of course what I'm considering is a masters in translation and/or interpreting. It's a slightly big deal that I decided to do this as it was over 2 hours away and it cost me a whole day, which I don't regret, but free days are rare lately, since i'm either working or have a busy day with the kids.

I attended a few info sessions and spoke to a few people, got some contacts, stuff to get the ball rolling. The linguistics talk was exciting, I thought, and walking around the campus just made me want to have my time over again and study all the things I find really cool - languages, linguistics, international relations, sustainable development... that sort of thing. It had me thinking though, as one of the questions I posed was what level do I need to enter a masters of translations +/- interpreting... and I started to doubt my capabilities again. Although lately I'm feeling my French growing a little as well.

Anyway, I've also been up to no good revamping, reworking, undoing, doing all kinds of language mixtures, mélanges, combinations, combinaties and combinaciones. In the end I'm confused. I add all 5 languages to my plan, take a couple out, take some more out, figure I ought to focus on Dutch mainly next year, then wonder about Norwegian, then consider right out of left field, learning Portuguese some day because it will help me get a Job in Luxembourg (but of course I'd learn German and Luxembourgish too).... as you can see, i'm just totally insane.

I then also think, all the information and advice many others have given me on this forum over the years, what absolutely right. I concluded these things.
1. Do not do too many beginner courses.
2. Do more advanced courses, but try to be efficient about that as well.
3. Read and listen to truck loads of native content.

Why? Well, I think I've said this before, but after x number of years learning French, I really should be pretty darn close to native speaker level. I don't think I am. My conclusion is - too much time spent in beginner course land. Doesn't matter, no matter how many wise people told me this, I had to learn this lesson myself. But boy am I itching to read read read and listen listen listen and speak speak speak - ALL NATIVE content and with natives in terms of speaking. But I can't. The exam is around the corner and I don't know turd from dog turd when it comes to the structure of this academic French stuff. I cannot give more time to native content when I must know the exam content.

I also started to think, well if I can only spare some time for Norwegian and Duch aside from French each day, then I ought to really use all the French based content I can find, because I don't want to reduce the amount of French I'm learning while not yet C2. rdearman's comments came back to me (focus on getting to C1/C2 BEFORE starting any other languages). And I thought, who am I kidding, if I'm not C2 yet, I mean wtf, I need to reach C2 if I'm going to make a job out of translation and be considered for this masters.

Anyway I was close to throwing in the towel yet again on this exam, but I figure, I need to have an italki session with my favourite tutor and see what her take is on it before I go making any rash decisions.

Peace out. How many scripts are in a scab. I mean are you for real?
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Re: PM’s French Adventures in the Matrix

Postby rdearman » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:12 pm

To do two things at once is to do neither
- (Publilius Syrus, an Iraqi enslaved by the Romans. Flourished first century BCE.)
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